Ignatieff calls bilingualism the essence of Canada

[Borg]

I wonder if that transplanted American plans to learn Spanish so he can function in the U.S. of A. when he returns after his time in the Canadian government.

The man is a fraud

Borg

[Argus]

Good for him. I like it when politicians reinforce part of our Canadian identity. Get a lfie Leafless.

Well, I think he was just whoring after the French vote, which makes him pretty much just another typical, slimy politician, I strongly dissaprove of everything he is quoted as saying. So this tilts my feelings towards him further away from where I could bring myself to ever vote for him.

His strong support of Quebec style language laws in Russel is telling. It's a sleepy area where everyone got along until newcomers - Frenchmen from Quebec who crossed the river to take government jobs - demanded a Quebec style language law. Now they have it and Francophones and Anglophones in that area have never hated each other more than they do now.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Argus

[Smallc]

No it is not

Yes, it is, despite your ignorance of reality.

[Argus]

Yes, it is, despite your ignorance of reality.

Bilingualism is a passing fad clung to by French nationalists, most of whom hate Anglos, and snivelling, hand-wringing liberals who would literally crawl on their knees to apologise to anyone who even MIGHT be offended by their existence.

As the numbers of French speakers continues its steady decline, there will come pressure, first from other linguistic groups, then from Anglos, to get rid of the idiotic official bilingualism policy.

If you think that's the "essence of Canada" it will then, hopefully, be time for you to emigrate.

[waldo]

- and now there is little to no hope for the average Canadian to work for the federal government - in fact preferential hiring has turned Ottawa into a franco enclave that ruiles the rest of Canada.

please substantiate your biased claim

as an example, within the public service, there are positions that require French, require English or require both French and English. The hiring manager has a responsibility for determining the language requirements of a position - based on an objective assessment of the duties and responsibilities of the position. Even if a position is designated as 'bilingual', a further qualification exists to suggest that some of these positions could be staffed by someone willing to become bilingual through language training at government expense

Careers in the federal public service - Overview of language requirements

[Smallc]

Bilingualism is a passing fad

It's part of this country...and I don't see that changing.

[Leafless]

It's part of this country...and I don't see that changing.

Francophones have always used bilingualism to obtain English speaking employment.

This is generally what happens when their dying French Canadian culture is incapable of creating plentiful jobs in their own French language.

It is outright discrimination and oppression on the part of the federal government to force English speaking Canadians to pay for French Canadian's failure to assimilate by creating 'tit for tat' bilingualism and then turn around and call it the "essence of being Canadian".

[Smallc]

Francophones have always used bilingualism to obtain English speaking employment.

Must be a terrible world you live in....In my world, there's no such thing as "English Speaking Employment".

[Machjo]

Ignatieff called the ability to speak both official languages "the essence of being Canadian".

If he really meant this, then he's essentially implying that only about 17% of Canadians have the essence of being Canadian. Highly offensive.

[Machjo]

Good for him. I like it when politicians reinforce part of our Canadian identity. Get a lfie Leafless.

Though I didn't agree with the tone of Leafless' OP and some of the statements he made in it, I will defend him on a few specific points in it. As for English_French bilingualism, statistically it is part of the identity of no more than about 17% of Canadians.

[Machjo]

I speak both English and French. I don't feel any more Canadian than someone who doesn't.

As a Franco-ontarian myself, I share your sentiment.

[Machjo]

Bilingualism means that you can speak English, French, or both...without being anymore than anyone else. I speak English and I'm learning French...it won't make me anymore Canadian. I don't think that he meant that they're more Canadian, but that bilingualism is part of the Canadian identity.

I'm sure your right on his intentions, but it was very badly worded. Taken at face value, it leaves the very definition of 'identity' ambiguous. After all, how can an identity shared by only about 17% of us count as a 'national' one? It would have been more accurate then to refer to national identities. After all, if an identity is but national but not personal for most, then it is but an abstract and imaginary one for those who don't share it at a personal level.

But again, I'm sure you're right and that it just came out wrong. But then that also suggests that Ignatieff doesn't have a clearly defined idea of where exactly French-English bilingualism fits into the national identity, which also suggests that he's willing to say anything on a whim to stir applause. Seems like an ill-thought out off-the-cuff remark on his part. And that's not what we want from a future PM.

[Machjo]

Bilingual means you can speak both languages.

And according to that definition, only a person can have a bilingual identity. Sure an organization can be officially bilingual and have a bilingual identity as an organization, but that identity does not automatically transfer to its members. In a democracy like Canada, however, each person ought to share the national identity. We can't have an abstract national identity that is incongruent with the personal identities of most Canadians. After all, it would be a little ludicrous for a unilingual Canadian to call himself bilingual just for the sake of a national identity.

We have two official languages, and I suppose that's part of what makes Canada what it is.

Only at the federal level. At the provincial and territorial levels, the number of official languages can range from 1 to 4. This is but an organizational administrative, not personal, identity.

I think Ignatieff is trying to just identify himself with Quebec voters and there's nothing wrong with that.

I do see something wrong with it. He should be sincere and not pretend. If he wants to flaunt that he's bilingual, wonderful, so am I. But if he's to suggest that only bilinguals have the essence of Canadian identity, even if that's not what he meant, that's not appropriate. Again, I'm sure it's not what he meant, but then that just shows that he can be too knee-jerk of a PM. Is that the kind of PM we want?

To be honest I'm confused why a thread was started about this.

Because the thredstarter wanted to express his zenophobia.

[Machjo]

Bilingual means you can speak both languages. We have two official languages, and I suppose that's part of what makes Canada what it is. I think Ignatieff is trying to just identify himself with Quebec voters and there's nothing wrong with that. To be honest I'm confused why a thread was started about this.

They are but official, not necessarily knwon to most Canadians. Most are unilingual English or French speaking, and even Statistics Canada confirms this.

[Machjo]

Canadians are both English and French. Knowing both languages is an asset. Bilingualism is part of who we are.

It's part of who we (i.e. you, Smallc, and I) because we know them both. It's not a part of who most Canadians are.

[Machjo]

Both Langauges are part of Canada. To not recognize that is to deny a reality....and knowing both languages in this country is an asset. It can help you go places that you otherwise couldn't.

Yes, it's an asset, just like knowing computer programming is an asset. But that's a far cry from claiming it to be a national identity most can't even function in. Ignatieff was not saying that it's an asset like computer programming might be, but a part of a common identity. Lanuage forms an identity not through birth, but through mastery.

[Machjo]

When it comes to bilingualism, people of either English or French will complain about learning others language. Education is power and the more you have the better you are to deal with the world. All Fed. jobs have to speak both, and Canada official languages are French and English and that IS essense Canadian. I guess it would have to do with ones attitude towards life and Canada.

No, that has to do with pure politics. I remember a friend who'd mentioned how one of his aboriginal friends was quite sour about only european languages being added to the list. If it were about identity, why choose languages that bear the names of overseas countries?In the end, the whole thing is political, an attempt to cater to the ethnic identities of the two largest ethnic groups, to both of which I belong.

[Machjo]

Really, can you continue the thread in french then?

Good idea. if everyone else agrees, I'd love to. I'm sure at least one person in this thread would be knocked out of the conversation.

[Machjo]

Bilingualism is a passing fad clung to by French nationalists, most of whom hate Anglos, and snivelling, hand-wringing liberals who would literally crawl on their knees to apologise to anyone who even MIGHT be offended by their existence.

As the numbers of French speakers continues its steady decline, there will come pressure, first from other linguistic groups, then from Anglos, to get rid of the idiotic official bilingualism policy.

If you think that's the "essence of Canada" it will then, hopefully, be time for you to emigrate.

And no Anglo suffers from the same blind nationalism?

[Machjo]

please substantiate your biased claim

as an example, within the public service, there are positions that require French, require English or require both French and English. The hiring manager has a responsibility for determining the language requirements of a position - based on an objective assessment of the duties and responsibilities of the position. Even if a position is designated as 'bilingual', a further qualification exists to suggest that some of these positions could be staffed by someone willing to become bilingual through language training at government expense

Careers in the federal public service - Overview of language requirements

Now this is something I strongly disagree with. Why should a civil servant get free French or English courses while those in the private sector don't. Besides, education is a provincial responsibility, not federal. If the federal government is short of bilingual staff, then why doesn't it bring the issue up with the provincial governments to get their education system right. Once a person is finished highschool, he should have to pay any further training at his own expense. No Canadians should be more equal than others in this respect. If public servants can get free second-language education, then so should all Canadians. Or inversely, none.

[capricorn]

Bilingualism is a passing fad

Argus, the hula hoop was a fad. Bilingualism may have started off as a fad but it has become institutionalized, thanks to the Liberals and those rabid French nationalists you speak of. To try to deconstruct it would throw the federal bureaucracy into unimaginable chaos. With your experience, I'm certain you know what I mean.

-----

Remember Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier? He was one of the Liberal architects of today's bilingualism program. That earned him the Order of Canada.

The Honourable Jean-Robert Gauthier, C.M.

Ottawa, Ontario

Member of the Order of Canada

Jean-Robert Gauthier helped to put language rights on the map in Canada. Since arriving on the federal political scene in 1972, and until his retirement from the Senate in 2004, he played an important role in advancing issues of vital concern for the future of the Francophonie. In recognition of his commitment, he was appointed honorary chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages. Throughout his career, he has been deeply committed to the Franco-Ontarian community while contributing to a renewed dialogue between Canada’s linguistic communities.

http://www.gg.ca/media/doc.asp?lang=e&DocID=4941

In 2002, while still a Senator, Gauthier scouted the Ottawa restaurant scene to check whether menus were available in French.

Senator Jean-Robert Gauthier says he can recall a time when you couldn't use French to buy socks in Ottawa, let alone order a meal.

"I went for lunch once in a prominent restaurant on York Street, in the [byWard] Market," the 75-year-old native Ottawan says, as he settles into a stiff-backed, red-oak chair in his Centre Block office.

"When the server gave us the menus, I noticed they were only in English. When I asked if we could have menus in French, I was told, 'This is the Market. We do business in English here.' "

That was just two years ago.

The incident prompted Gauthier to start asking questions about the use of both official languages in the capital region.

"I didn't understand how a restaurant in a building owned by the government wasn't obligated to make use of both French and English."

Gauthier says he discussed the issue with Marcel Beaudry, the chairman of the National Capital Commission, and Sheila Copps, the minister of Canadian Heritage at the time. He says he was told that linguistic clauses in government leases weren't really enforceable.

----

Gauthier says he kept pressing the issue with Beaudry and Copps. Eventually, Copps announced her department would give the City of Ottawa $2.5 million over five years to maintain bilingual services. Ten per cent — or $250,000 — of that was earmarked for the Business Assistance Pilot Project to help businesses in the National Capital Region provide service in French.

The project began on Feb. 4, 2004, and will run until 2006.

"When I came into politics 40 years ago, I've always had a vision of Ottawa being a reflection of Canada," Gauthier says. "I've always felt it should be bilingual. This project is going to help businesses — and everyone for that matter — be respectful of both languages."

http://www.carleton.ca/jmc/cnews/13022004/feature.shtml

Gauthier's exploit to force all of Ottawa's restaurants to produce menus in a bilingual format raised the dander of the majority of Ottawans who consistently resist that their city be declared officially bilingual. Why didn't Gauthier just realize that restauranteurs know that if bilingual menus will improve business, they'll offer them. He just couldn't help trying to extend the Liberal footprint of bilingualism on Ottawa's businesses.

[Leafless]

Must be a terrible world you live in....In my world, there's no such thing as "English Speaking Employment".

'English speaking employment or English speaking jobs' is a common phrase.

Here is an example from Montreal:

Montréal english speaking jobs

Sort by Newest ads first Oldest ads first

Posted

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Simple Jobs At Home. Mail work, Assemble Products or Computer Work

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Montreal Learning Centre

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....amp;qpid=424525

It is unfortunate you do not understand what it means.

[Leafless]

This is the corrected link for 'English speaking jobs in Montreal'

http://montreal.kijiji.ca/f-english-speaki...eakingQQlangZen

[ironstone]

Bilingualism means promoting french outside of Quebec...and little else.

[Smallc]

Bilingualism means promoting french outside of Quebec...and little else.

Since the French language always did and still does exist outside of Quebec, there's nothing wrong with it. I'm sure many Quebecers would argue the same thing as you...but in reverse. Because we have two large language groups that founded this country, we acknowledge and celebrate both of them....a very admirable thing.