The BIBLE and SCIENCE

chuck schmidt · January 20, 2010

So you basically admit arguments from aesthetics are pretty worthless? I can't draw any other conclusion from this.

Sorry Toad, force doesn't work with me. I don't admit anything. Your arguments have to contain the force of logic. This isn't a bar where you can shout down your opponent with force of personality.

GostHacked · January 20, 2010

Sorry Toad, force doesn't work with me. I don't admit anything. Your arguments have to contain the force of logic. This isn't a bar where you can shout down your opponent with force of personality.

That sounds like what the faithful do. They shout down the opponent with circular and not so good logic.

Repent or die sinner !!

ToadBrother · January 20, 2010

Sorry Toad, force doesn't work with me. I don't admit anything. Your arguments have to contain the force of logic. This isn't a bar where you can shout down your opponent with force of personality.

Force of wha? I'm trying to eek out your position. I'll ask plainer then, so you won't feel all threatened and intimidated. Are arguments from aesthetics as a defense of theism legitimate arguments or not?

Oleg Bach · January 20, 2010

Than get of your computer and stay off it. Get rid of everthing you own and live in the woods.

If it was feasable and I was allowed to live in the "woods" by a lake in a nice little cabin - I would totally abandon modern society and become a fisher of fish - not men - but fish - at least they are useful as food. It is awesomely stupid that they always refere to a Messiah complex as a bad thing - It would be nice if more people actually believed they could save the world..but as a very rich old man once said to me.."Not every one wants to be saved" - I guess my point has always been that believing in goodness and God is a good thing..that it sustains life and perpetuates happiness..It is not the persuit of happiness that counts but the seizure of it. If we become more and more secularized as seems the trend..and we stop adhering to law and to goodness - hellishness will take place. That's the problem with rough secularization - it opens the door to a new morality that does not care about the difference between right and wrong - life and death - so we enter upon the slippery slope sliding downward to death and not up ward to life.

whowhere · January 20, 2010

If it was feasable and I was allowed to live in the "woods" by a lake in a nice little cabin - I would totally abandon modern society and become a fisher of fish - not men - but fish - at least they are useful as food. It is awesomely stupid that they always refere to a Messiah complex as a bad thing - It would be nice if more people actually believed they could save the world..but as a very rich old man once said to me.."Not every one wants to be saved" - I guess my point has always been that believing in goodness and God is a good thing..that it sustains life and perpetuates happiness..It is not the persuit of happiness that counts but the seizure of it. If we become more and more secularized as seems the trend..and we stop adhering to law and to goodness - hellishness will take place. That's the problem with rough secularization - it opens the door to a new morality that does not care about the difference between right and wrong - life and death - so we enter upon the slippery slope sliding downward to death and not up ward to life.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/apathy
apathy

Main Entry: ap·a·thy

Pronunciation: \ˈa-pə-thē\

Function: noun

Etymology: Greek apatheia, from apathēs without feeling, from a- + pathos emotion — more at pathos

Date: 1594

1 : lack of feeling or emotion : impassiveness

2 : lack of interest or concern : indifference

Canada is a country you are on your own and you navigate through the sea of indifference. Because of Government apathy many out of frustration may look to a God as a crutch. Machievellian Society at work. The fact is, God is not listening, and if there is a God listening it is your collective ancestory/DNA sequencing shining forth. Yes you Can live in the woods in a Cabin, Canada is a big Country. With freecell technology, Satellite Internet, etc, etc, you can stay connected to society or not. Society is a drug, it's good, it's bad, it's corrupt, but what can you do. If Canada can be summed up in a word: Apathy. Some don't mind that. Usually in an apathetic environment, you have to be prepared to take a few knocks.

Oleg Bach · January 20, 2010

There is a problem that dwells in by being. It is that I have to much empathy to be pathologically apathetic..I can shut the feelings down but they always lurk just below the surface..If I or you were to bail out of socity - then who would take care of them? Every good persons existance has an effect on the health of the collective. As for the God issue - well - If I could grow back my own missing teeth - or lengthen my life to a thousand years then I would not need a God - seeing I am this pathetic little temporal creature with a conscousness...then I will continue to have faith..because the universe in it's unlimited power..thinks...and it thinks of me..so I in turn return the favour..that's called safety..imagined or not is no the issue.

whowhere · January 21, 2010

There is a problem that dwells in by being. It is that I have to much empathy to be pathologically apathetic..I can shut the feelings down but they always lurk just below the surface..If I or you were to bail out of socity - then who would take care of them? Every good persons existance has an effect on the health of the collective. As for the God issue - well - If I could grow back my own missing teeth - or lengthen my life to a thousand years then I would not need a God - seeing I am this pathetic little temporal creature with a conscousness...then I will continue to have faith..because the universe in it's unlimited power..thinks...and it thinks of me..so I in turn return the favour..that's called safety..imagined or not is no the issue.

Which God do you have faith in? I am not saying a God exists or doesn't exist.

If there is a God, he's has an out to lunch sign on his door. For that reason, the restless use God as a tool to exploit, brainwash, and do whatever in the name of a God. Is the world a creation or a cosmic result of environmental conditions. Is there a master intelligence, or perhaps, consciousness is ever expanding and the Gods you put before you are really milestones to bigger consciousness and bigger Gods. The Western World and their montheism of taping together Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to corral the minds of man is awash. This God is explicit and he is elaborately described in length. These religions are backed into a Corner really.

So what it comes down to is whether one believe in a Super Consciousness/Intelligence and this intelligence will relay you, or "promise too", deliver you to a higher conscious. Perhaps you are nothing more than a life and "Life" will look after life according to divine laws. Life has to be somewhat intelligent as man can't get enough of trying to replicate and figure out the genius. When Life is prepared to open the door to evolve life further, Life will, I 100% believe that. In Life Humans exists, Animals exists, insects exist, and it would not be inconceivable for GODS (Advance intelligence) to EXIST. As humans are ego-centric, so goes it for a God. Why would any God step out for a lowly human? We all pursue life in a different way. Ultimately all realize we revolve around the earth and the earth revolves around the sun and the sun revolves around the milky way. We are all groping in the dark.

Science has to be credited for expanding the scope and minds of man. Religion has to be credited to keeping humans human and keeping societies from becoming overzealous in the way of police states and dictatorships. When Tyranny surfaces, religion takes form and expands.

The cycles of societies and religion.

Oleg Bach · January 21, 2010

After spending a few intense years studying religion - I finally took all the books..stuck them in the drawer - put the nightly mediations aside and said to myself - "You will not find the truth in religion - you will find it deep in you. So I became a simplistic - a primative.

chuck schmidt · January 21, 2010

Force of wha? I'm trying to eek out your position. I'll ask plainer then, so you won't feel all threatened and intimidated. Are arguments from aesthetics as a defense of theism legitimate arguments or not?

It was not my intention to refer to aesthetics. I suppose it was more in the nature of musing. Whenever people live in the man-made environment of cities they seem to drop faith in a deity and develop philosophies that give all credit to man. When they live on farms or in the bush and see the miracles of natural birth and growth, there tends to be a greater acceptance of the miracles of God. Neither is a rule, just a general observation. My comment wasn't meant to be persuasive.

Edited January 21, 2010 by chuck schmidt

chuck schmidt · January 21, 2010

If it was feasable and I was allowed to live in the "woods" by a lake in a nice little cabin - I would totally abandon modern society....

Depending on what toys you are willing to sacrifice there is nothing stopping you. There are many who do just what you say you want. Just don't expect to be issued a government permit. If government "permits" you then they are responsible to rescue you by some twist of bureaucratic logic, so they won't. However if you go far enough and just do it, the odds of government bothering you are slim. There are many remote areas where this is common.

chuck schmidt · January 21, 2010

If there is a God, he's has an out to lunch sign on his door. For that reason, the restless use God as a tool to exploit, brainwash, and do whatever in the name of a God. Is the world a creation or a cosmic result of environmental conditions. Is there a master intelligence, or perhaps, consciousness is ever expanding and the Gods you put before you are really milestones to bigger consciousness and bigger Gods. The Western World and their montheism of taping together Judaism, Christianity, and Islam to corral the minds of man is awash. This God is explicit and he is elaborately described in length. These religions are backed into a Corner really.
So what it comes down to is whether one believe in a Super Consciousness/Intelligence and this intelligence will relay you, or "promise too", deliver you to a higher conscious. Perhaps you are nothing more than a life and "Life" will look after life according to divine laws. Life has to be somewhat intelligent as man can't get enough of trying to replicate and figure out the genius. When Life is prepared to open the door to evolve life further, Life will, I 100% believe that. In Life Humans exists, Animals exists, insects exist, and it would not be inconceivable for GODS (Advance intelligence) to EXIST. As humans are ego-centric, so goes it for a God. Why would any God step out for a lowly human? We all pursue life in a different way. Ultimately all realize we revolve around the earth and the earth revolves around the sun and the sun revolves around the milky way. We are all groping in the dark.

Science has to be credited for expanding the scope and minds of man. Religion has to be credited to keeping humans human and keeping societies from becoming overzealous in the way of police states and dictatorships. When Tyranny surfaces, religion takes form and expands.

The cycles of societies and religion.

Interesting take. My take of your description is that you are not describing God, you are describing man's reactions to each other and people's differing view of gods. In neither case does that mean He is out to lunch. It suggests that you, like many of us, are still trying to figure out when you hear Him and what He means.

Edited January 21, 2010 by chuck schmidt

ToadBrother · January 21, 2010

Science has to be credited for expanding the scope and minds of man. Religion has to be credited to keeping humans human and keeping societies from becoming overzealous in the way of police states and dictatorships. When Tyranny surfaces, religion takes form and expands.

WTF? Plenty of overtly religious states have become police states and dictatorships. Religion has long been one of the most potent political tools. Why do you think Pharaohs called themselves gods? Heck, Alexander the Great knew just how potent religion could be, and had himself deified as well, and so successful was he that the Alexander cult persisted for almost a thousand years after his death.

But more troubling is the underlying notion of the "useful lie", that even if everything a religion says is bunk, it's still good to have because it keeps the people on the straight and narrow. It somehow suggests that a nonbeliever is more likely to commit antisocial acts, and that a believer is less likely.

Edited January 21, 2010 by ToadBrother

jbg · January 21, 2010

Canada is a country you are on your own and you navigate through the sea of indifference. Because of Government apathy many out of frustration may look to a God as a crutch. Machievellian Society at work. The fact is, God is not listening, and if there is a God listening it is your collective ancestory/DNA sequencing shining forth. Yes you Can live in the woods in a Cabin, Canada is a big Country. With freecell technology, Satellite Internet, etc, etc, you can stay connected to society or not. Society is a drug, it's good, it's bad, it's corrupt, but what can you do. If Canada can be summed up in a word: Apathy. Some don't mind that. Usually in an apathetic environment, you have to be prepared to take a few knocks.

Stream of consciousness writing at its _____________.

whowhere · January 22, 2010

Interesting take. My take of your description is that you are not describing God, you are describing man's reactions to each other and people's differing view of gods. In neither case does that mean He is out to lunch. It suggests that you, like many of us, are still trying to figure out when you hear Him and what He means.

God of the OT illustrates how he overtly communicates with man. In the case of Moses, via a burning bush. To build his temple through a cloud and a pillar of fire. For christians, a voice in your head. The christians belief is little far fetched and is in line with exploiting this God's out to lunch status.

whowhere · January 22, 2010

It somehow suggests that a nonbeliever is more likely to commit antisocial acts, and that a believer is less likely.

I would say that is probably likely.

ToadBrother · January 22, 2010

I would say that is probably likely.

I'm sure you would. I'm also willing to bet you don't have even the vaguest bit of evidence.

chuck schmidt · January 22, 2010

God of the OT illustrates how he overtly communicates with man. In the case of Moses, via a burning bush. To build his temple through a cloud and a pillar of fire. For christians, a voice in your head. The christians belief is little far fetched and is in line with exploiting this God's out to lunch status.

When you say Christians' belief it is like you think there is only one and all C's share it? For instance when you say "far fetched" in what sense? If you are critiquing the Bible what scripture, what chapter and verse and from what version of the Bible?

In this entire thread what I read is people discussing people, not God. If that what you wish please feel free, but its a totally different subject.

charter.rights · January 22, 2010

When you say Christians' belief it is like you think there is only one and all C's share it? For instance when you say "far fetched" in what sense? If you are critiquing the Bible what scripture, what chapter and verse and from what version of the Bible?

In this entire thread what I read is people discussing people, not God. If that what you wish please feel free, but its a totally different subject.

Those who live in totally darkened rooms cannot describe the light outside. But once a door is opened fear of the unknown sets in and those inside will fight to close it again for fear that the light will contaminate them.

bush_cheney2004 · January 22, 2010

Those who live in totally darkened rooms cannot describe the light outside. But once a door is opened fear of the unknown sets in and those inside will fight to close it again for fear that the light will contaminate them.

Nonsense....those who live in totally darkened rooms have excellent light adaptation, including the perimeter of a closed door. Welcome to reality....

GostHacked · January 22, 2010

Nonsense....those who live in totally darkened rooms have excellent light adaptation, including the perimeter of a closed door. Welcome to reality....

HAY !!! You don't normally post in these types of threads!?@?

charter.rights · January 22, 2010

HAY !!! You don't normally post in these types of threads!?@?

That's because he doesn't like being wrong so many times in the same day....

whowhere · January 23, 2010

I'm sure you would. I'm also willing to bet you don't have even the vaguest bit of evidence.

Those who are true to whatever religion knows character is front and center. Lying, cheating, etc, etc, is not acceptable. You sound like you like to think of yourself as a devils advocate. You argue for the sake of argueing. You have no position, so you prove my point. I can't trust anything you have to say. Fine you believe the bible is a work of fiction and you will dismiss it as irrelevant. Perhaps, but one has to recognize the amount of work it took to construct it and the coherence of it. Anyone who looks at the book escpecially christians and their revisionist agenda would like nothing more than to edit out and piece together a book more to their agenda of keeping you simple, not asking questions, and getting you to support them with your money.

You are arguing non religious/atheists people are more trustworthy and reliable than those who claim they believe. There is no way to prove whether you are being honest or dishonest with the people around you without putting a lie detector on you 24/7. Religion tackles that head on, so if the person is a lyer they are doing damage to their faith in whatever religion they are in and the efforts and beliefs are for nothing.

From that angle, You could say atheists are more honest in that regard as they are not pretending to be hypocritical christians, jewish, muslims or whatever religion.

Edited January 23, 2010 by whowhere

whowhere · January 23, 2010

I'm sure you would. I'm also willing to bet you don't have even the vaguest bit of evidence.

Those who are true to whatever religion knows character is front and center. Lying, cheating, etc, etc, is not acceptable. You sound like you like to think of yourself as a devils advocate. You argue for the sake of argueing. You have no position, so you prove my point. I can't trust anything you have to say. Fine you believe the bible is a work of fiction and you will dismiss it as irrelevant. Perhaps, but one has to recognize the amount of work it took to construct it and the coherence of it. Anyone who looks at the book escpecially christians and their revisionist agenda would like nothing more than to edit out and piece together a book more to their agenda of keeping you simple, not asking questions, and getting you support them with your money

January 23, 2010

So no he does not have any proof.

whowhere · January 23, 2010

So no he does not have any proof.

Do you have proof you exist? No, Really? Really, maybe you are just a droid. :huh: who think he exists by asking for stupid information. Asking for someone to prove if the majority of people feel cold over feeling warm is an idiotic and a moronic request and it goes to show your shoe size intelligence. You can't quantify it, there is no way to know if atheists are more honest or dishonest. However, as I have stated the religious have books to say dishonesty is not acceptable. What books do atheists abide by and who is holding them to the fire?