Abortion & MEN's rights

[JerrySeinfeld]

Watching the other abortion debates online here I decided to post this question for debate:

Most women claim full control over their own bodies - ie. the choice of whether orr not to abort.

But in most areas of life, full control also means full responsibility. But that's not what happeens with birth. Many Women make the choice to have a baby - having full control over the decision - but then end of making OTHERS accountable for that decision in the form of child support payments or even government assistance. Isn't that, well...childish? (pardon the pun)

So my question is this: if Women are to have full control of the abortion decision - then shouldn't they also absolve Men of any financial resposibility for the baby if it is born?

And by the same token, if Men have no say in birth, then why should they bear any responsibility? I mean, I can see where if a man and a woman TOGETHER decide to have a baby, then the man should pay too. But if a Man doesn't want the baby and the woman does, then why should the man (or the taxpayer) have to pay anything at all to someone who claims full adult resposibility for the decision?

If men are to bear financial resposibility for any born childeren, then shouldn't they also be allowed to play a role in the abortion decision?

Food for discussion.

[Oleg Bach]

Years ago I attempted to block an abortion - by threatening legal proceedings against the doctor about to abort one of my children - My wife was confused...and did not understand what was taking place - so - this doctor - I found out later did forensic work for the local cops - He must have pulled a few strings - Within an hour of the call - there were two very huge plain clothes detectives in my house - Literally invaded the place - stuck me in a chair and gave me an hour long lecture on womans rights and the benefits of abortion - they were yelling - they were threatening - eventually the older one admitted that he was heart broken that his new wife recently aborted - the younger cop put his face in mine and yelled "I was adopted - YOU GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?" -It was unbelievable --

Strangely a year and a half later a son was born - I assisted in the delivery - the doctor that came in to do the final bit was the abortionist - He did not know who I was - I watched his hands - the same hands that aborted one of my offspring was now birthing another - It was very odd - to me all I could see was a buisness man - birthing or aborting were all the same to this freak...who had the nerve to show me he had more power than I in the case of reproductive rights - that he had henchmen to do his bidding if challenged - this is a true story my friends - I had no rights - to what came from my body - nor did my wife...The cops kept refering to her as "a person also" - while she stood in the kitchen - she left and no one noticed her absence - apparently she was just a pretend person to these people.

[WIP]

If men are to bear financial resposibility for any born childeren, then shouldn't they also be allowed to play a role in the abortion decision?

Food for discussion.

NO!

Not everything in life can be made perfectly fair, and until men start having babies themselves, childbirth is another one that can't always be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

In our modern, civil society, where we have gradually moved away from patriarchy to attempts at gender equality, it is a non-starter to try to make a case that a man or a government of men can force a woman to go through a nine month pregnancy against her will, and deliver a baby.

The reason why we are getting dangerously close to regressing backwards to the time when women had no choice over motherhood, like goes on in most of the Muslim World, is because non-stop religious brainwashing is convincing more and more people that a fertilized egg deserves full rights of personhood.

The only time that a fetus's right to life should outweigh the host's freedom over decisions that affect her body, is when it has reached a stage, like at the beginning of the Third Trimester, where it has brain development that is reaching the level of a newborn infant. It's a red herring anyway, since late term abortions are risky operations that are difficult to obtain, and are only used as an option by most pregnant women when things go wrong during the pregnancy.

On the flipside, if she decides to have the baby -- so sorry for the unlucky guy who assumed that she was on birthcontrol, but that's the way the cookie crumbles! He has contributed to her pregnancy, whether willingly or not, and has the responsibilities that every father has for his children.

[Borg]

NO!

Not everything in life can be made perfectly fair, and until men start having babies themselves, childbirth is another one that can't always be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

In our modern, civil society, where we have gradually moved away from patriarchy to attempts at gender equality, it is a non-starter to try to make a case that a man or a government of men can force a woman to go through a nine month pregnancy against her will, and deliver a baby.

The reason why we are getting dangerously close to regressing backwards to the time when women had no choice over motherhood, like goes on in most of the Muslim World, is because non-stop religious brainwashing is convincing more and more people that a fertilized egg deserves full rights of personhood.

The only time that a fetus's right to life should outweigh the host's freedom over decisions that affect her body, is when it has reached a stage, like at the beginning of the Third Trimester, where it has brain development that is reaching the level of a newborn infant. It's a red herring anyway, since late term abortions are risky operations that are difficult to obtain, and are only used as an option by most pregnant women when things go wrong during the pregnancy.

On the flipside, if she decides to have the baby -- so sorry for the unlucky guy who assumed that she was on birthcontrol, but that's the way the cookie crumbles! He has contributed to her pregnancy, whether willingly or not, and has the responsibilities that every father has for his children.

Ah, yes!

Nothing like having your cake and eating it too!

Borg

[jdobbin]

Years ago I attempted to block an abortion - by threatening legal proceedings against the doctor about to abort one of my children - My wife was confused

How old was your wife then? Confused? She had a mental disability? She was underage? I find it all very mysterious you had to go to court. You did live in the same house, right? Was it because you didn't speak the same language?

[jdobbin]

Watching the other abortion debates online here I decided to post this question for debate:

So making abortion illegal in all cases would even things out?

Edited May 18, 2009 by jdobbin

[JerrySeinfeld]

NO!

Not everything in life can be made perfectly fair, and until men start having babies themselves, childbirth is another one that can't always be worked out to everyone's satisfaction.

In our modern, civil society, where we have gradually moved away from patriarchy to attempts at gender equality, it is a non-starter to try to make a case that a man or a government of men can force a woman to go through a nine month pregnancy against her will, and deliver a baby.

The reason why we are getting dangerously close to regressing backwards to the time when women had no choice over motherhood, like goes on in most of the Muslim World, is because non-stop religious brainwashing is convincing more and more people that a fertilized egg deserves full rights of personhood.

The only time that a fetus's right to life should outweigh the host's freedom over decisions that affect her body, is when it has reached a stage, like at the beginning of the Third Trimester, where it has brain development that is reaching the level of a newborn infant. It's a red herring anyway, since late term abortions are risky operations that are difficult to obtain, and are only used as an option by most pregnant women when things go wrong during the pregnancy.

On the flipside, if she decides to have the baby -- so sorry for the unlucky guy who assumed that she was on birthcontrol, but that's the way the cookie crumbles! He has contributed to her pregnancy, whether willingly or not, and has the responsibilities that every father has for his children.

Well first of all - according to some it's not his "childeren" right away - it can be aborted.

Second, you have touched upon an interesting point when you say "not everything in life can be perfectly fair". True.

So in the spirit of that thought we should also realize that until men themselves start having babies, they'll have pay and seniority advantages over those that do have babies and leave the workforce for several months on several occasions to HAVE babies.

Thank you for ackowledging a very important point that many in the women's movement seem to intentionally ignore: things can't always be fair, because women give birth.

Thank you.

[ToadBrother]

Ah, yes!

Nothing like having your cake and eating it too!

Borg

Your womb envy is not a woman's problem. Biology doesn't give a damn about what you feel is fair or not.

[ToadBrother]

How old was your wife then? Confused? She had a mental disability? She was underage? I find it all very mysterious you had to go to court. You did live in the same house, right? Was it because you didn't speak the same language?

If she's married to Oleg, I can only imagine the sorts of issues she had, and probably still does have.

[tango]

Hey guys! Here's the way it works ...

Every time you have sex, you take a chance on having a baby and having parental responsibility forever after. That's life!

If a man wants a woman to have an abortion aand she doesn't want to, or a man wants the woman to have the child and she doesn't want to ... that's life! It's your responsibility: deal with it!

Until a man can carry a foetus to term all by himself ... it's the woman's decision to do what she wants with her own body.

And until a man takes full responsibility for the consequences of his own actions - conceiving a baby - woman will have to chase them for support. They shouldn't have to do that: It's your responsibility as much as hers to raise that child.

[bush_cheney2004]

Hey guys! Here's the way it works ...

Every time you have sex, you take a chance on having a baby and having parental responsibility forever after. That's life!

Nope guys...that depends on who/how you're having sex with...male or female.

[Oleg Bach]

Hey guys! Here's the way it works ...

Every time you have sex, you take a chance on having a baby and having parental responsibility forever after. That's life!

If a man wants a woman to have an abortion aand she doesn't want to, or a man wants the woman to have the child and she doesn't want to ... that's life! It's your responsibility: deal with it!

Until a man can carry a foetus to term all by himself ... it's the woman's decision to do what she wants with her own body.

And until a man takes full responsibility for the consequences of his own actions - conceiving a baby - woman will have to chase them for support. They shouldn't have to do that: It's your responsibility as much as hers to raise that child.

Me - I am and was just an old fashioned breeder - every woman I ever had sex with I was willing to take responsiblity for the child - all 150 of them if neccesary - I always looked at sex as creational and re-creational. If a woman said she had concieved by me - then I was her's for at least the next 18 years...I looked at those guys that encouraged woman to abort their offspring as users and losers and cowards - worms!

[Borg]

Your womb envy is not a woman's problem. Biology doesn't give a damn about what you feel is fair or not.

No envy I assure you - being a man beats being a woman - hands down.

Fair? My wallet cares.

Borg

[WIP]

Hey guys! Here's the way it works ...

Every time you have sex, you take a chance on having a baby and having parental responsibility forever after. That's life!

If a man wants a woman to have an abortion aand she doesn't want to, or a man wants the woman to have the child and she doesn't want to ... that's life! It's your responsibility: deal with it!

Until a man can carry a foetus to term all by himself ... it's the woman's decision to do what she wants with her own body.

And until a man takes full responsibility for the consequences of his own actions - conceiving a baby - woman will have to chase them for support. They shouldn't have to do that: It's your responsibility as much as hers to raise that child.

The premise of thread it totally disingenuous to begin with. It could be from the guy who knocks up a girl, and doesn't want to pay for raising a child; or more likely, it's a conservative argument to reclaim control over women's fertility, that has been lost since the birth control pill was invented, and abortion was legalized. When women were able to control how many children they would have, they started getting educated, taking good jobs, and getting involved in politics.....and conservatives want them back in the baby-making business, because women tend to vote for more social programs, and less for war and weaponry.

Most conservatives who want to re-criminalize abortion are not interested in protecting life, otherwise they wouldn't be hard at work trying to dismantle the social safety nets that would provide for all of the extra children that will be brought in to the world if they are able to ban abortion and birth control. Conservative concern for the sanctity of life ends as soon as it pops out of the mother's womb!

[Borg]

Hey guys! Here's the way it works ...

Every time you have sex, you take a chance on having a baby and having parental responsibility forever after. That's life!

If a man wants a woman to have an abortion aand she doesn't want to, or a man wants the woman to have the child and she doesn't want to ... that's life! It's your responsibility: deal with it!

Until a man can carry a foetus to term all by himself ... it's the woman's decision to do what she wants with her own body.

And until a man takes full responsibility for the consequences of his own actions - conceiving a baby - woman will have to chase them for support. They shouldn't have to do that: It's your responsibility as much as hers to raise that child.

"Guys"?

What about the female - provided it was not forced, she laid in that bed as well.

Sorry - the women get the soft part of this responsibility in my opinion.

If it is not at least a two way street there is no fairness.

And I give a damn who carries the baby to term.

Woman wants to kill the baby and the man does not - carry it and give it to him - his responsibility.

Woman wants to carry the baby to term and keep it - and the man does not - she keeps it - on her own.

Two decide to have a baby - best routine in my opinion - then the "team" of husband and wife - through marriage or whatever arrangement - raise the kid.

No bull schitte about the woman and the womb - simply a feminazi way to force the guy to pay.

Borg

[JerrySeinfeld]

And until a man takes full responsibility for the consequences of his own actions - conceiving a baby - woman will have to chase them for support. They shouldn't have to do that: It's your responsibility as much as hers to raise that child.

But wait.

Abortion and it's very legal existence states that just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean she's having a baby.

In fact, a woman has the legal right to NOT have a baby.

In the current legal environment, the decision to have a baby isn't made upon conception, it's made by the woman ON HER OWN.

So your statement above that a man should "take resposibility for his own actions" is invalid. The birth of a child is not inevitable UNTIL A WOMAN CHOOSES IT TO BE SO - ie. by her actions and her actions alone.

In reality, BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT IS THE WOMAN WHO SOLELY AND ALONE ENTIRELY CHOOSES WHETHER OR NOT TO BE PREGNANT, IT IS THE WOMAN SHOULD SOLELY ALONE AND ENTIRELY BEAR RESPOSIBILITY FOR THAT CHOICE.

Edited May 20, 2009 by JerrySeinfeld

[WIP]

"Guys"?

What about the female - provided it was not forced, she laid in that bed as well.

Does this mean you are starting to equivocate? If the woman was raped, then she has the right to an abortion? So, why should that be the only instance where her personal rights take precedence over the fetus?

Sorry - the women get the soft part of this responsibility in my opinion.

There must not be enough women on this forum! I was expecting you to get at least one response from a woman who has gone through the nine month pregnancy, that you declare to be the "soft part of this responsibility."

If it is not at least a two way street there is no fairness.

And I give a damn who carries the baby to term.

It cannot be a 2 way street for biological reasons! Either the woman has authority over her body, or the state does. If the state extended a right to fatherhood for a man who impregnated a woman, then that would be a clear statement that a man's rights are superior and take precedence over a woman's rights. No two way street there!

Woman wants to kill the baby and the man does not - carry it and give it to him - his responsibility.

Implant the embryo into the man's.........oh no wait, WE DON'T HAVE ONE!

Woman wants to carry the baby to term and keep it - and the man does not - she keeps it - on her own.

And the man has still fathered a child, even if he wants to disown that child.

Two decide to have a baby - best routine in my opinion - then the "team" of husband and wife - through marriage or whatever arrangement - raise the kid.

And these days, those of us who are married, and have only been married once in our lives, are the minority. All fine and dandy to talk about what's best; let the people who are not in the best of situations figure out how to make the best with what they've got.

No bull schitte about the woman and the womb - simply a feminazi way to force the guy to pay.

Borg

How many guys are out there bragging about how they practice the four F's until they get a phone call one day informing them of the penalties for being a selfish liar, a cheat, and totally unconcerned about the welfare of the woman they fooled into having sex with them? All of a sudden, these guys turn into Mother Theresa, and it was all that bitch's fault!

For every man who hates women, there are at least an equal number of women with an axe to grind about men in general.

[DFCaper]

The pro abortionist never listin to anything in the grey area on any issue around Abortion.

Obama should have stated to the pro chioce group to be open to debate...

[Oleg Bach]

The pro abortionist never listin to anything in the grey area on any issue around Abortion.

Obama should have stated to the pro chioce group to be open to debate...

Human reproductive rights are a female AND male issue! This business that it's some sort of female think exclusively is a sinister bit of engineering to dupe the woman and dismantle the male ...it's not just the evil of killing offspring but the evil that is in the psudeo benevolent manner...It's a lie to believe that those that control the herd and it's breeding actually care for woman and or their rights - There are forces that look upon woman AND men with contempt - and loathing - they hate both of you...and they hate what you produce together - children! Children that will in time displace with their brilliancey the offspring of the Darwinian elite..they think they should live and YOU should all die - for God's sake and your own - don't let them take away your abiltity and real wealth - which is genetic continuence.

[August1991]

Every time you have sex, you take a chance on having a baby and having parental responsibility forever after. That's life!

If a man wants a woman to have an abortion aand she doesn't want to, or a man wants the woman to have the child and she doesn't want to ... that's life! It's your responsibility: deal with it!

Until a man can carry a foetus to term all by himself ... it's the woman's decision to do what she wants with her own body.

I agree with Tango, taking into account the minor quibbles of Bush_Cheney and (the real) Bill Clinton.

In fact, a woman has the legal right to NOT have a baby.

In the current legal environment, the decision to have a baby isn't made upon conception, it's made by the woman ON HER OWN.

So your statement above that a man should "take resposibility for his own actions" is invalid. The birth of a child is not inevitable UNTIL A WOMAN CHOOSES IT TO BE SO - ie. by her actions and her actions alone.

In reality, BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT IS THE WOMAN WHO SOLELY AND ALONE ENTIRELY CHOOSES WHETHER OR NOT TO BE PREGNANT, IT IS THE WOMAN SHOULD SOLELY ALONE AND ENTIRELY BEAR RESPOSIBILITY FOR THAT CHOICE.

Jerry, I think we have discussed this elsewhere. You were wrong then and you're wrong now. (Wait until the end of my screed for a small vindication.)

----

Two people get involved in a mutually beneficial affair that has the potential to become extremely costly - and possibly very lucrative. What happens if something goes wrong? Contract law is filled with such situations.

In the case of sex and a child, the woman must bear the child for nine months. (The man can bugger off in the middle of the night of conception.) IOW Jerry, you treat women and men as if they were identical parties in the deal. They're not. Imagine, for a moment, a business arrangement in which one party could leave the other to assume all costs for nine months or more? Contract law is far more nuanced than that. A contract signed under duress is no contract at all.

----

Nevertheless Jerry, you raise a good point (IMV). Most people, men and women, want to have children. They are fully prepared to assume the cost of having and raising these children.

I fear that the State has intervened so much in family that many people now choose not to have children. Market failure? The State has hindered an institution that once fluorished.

[WIP]

In the case of sex and a child, the woman must bear the child for nine months. (The man can bugger off in the middle of the night of conception.) IOW Jerry, you treat women and men as if they were identical parties in the deal. They're not. Imagine, for a moment, a business arrangement in which one party could leave the other to assume all costs for nine months or more?

And besides the man and the woman, there is also the interests of a third party to consider at the end of the nine months -- a child, whom both parents have an obligation to provide for so that it has an opportunity for a happy and fulfilling life.

I fear that the State has intervened so much in family that many people now choose not to have children. Market failure? The State has hindered an institution that once fluorished.

There are many situations where the state has to intervene for the welfare of the child, but that's beside the point! In 7 or 8 years, there will be 7 billion people on this planet, and the present rate of extinctions and habitat destruction lead many ecologists to the conclusion that our present population is already unsustainable, without adding more!

It's not a time to be lamenting declining birth rates. The real tragedy is that Catholic, Muslim and Hindu religious leaders have dismantled population control programs started by the U.N. 40 years ago, that had successfully lowered population growth in many of the world's most overpopulated countries. Now, except for China, they are charging over a cliff with wreckless abandon!

[Pliny]

The State has hindered an institution that once fluorished.

Prior to the sixties they fostered the institution. After the sixties they hindered it.

The argument of abortion revolves around State planning. It asks the person to absolve himself of responsibility on the issue by creating the laws necessary to further whatever it considers necessary. I don't think there should be a law against it as I believe it is a moral decision to be made after the greatest consideration. Would no law on the issue have an effect on the numbers? Would moral social pressure in the absence of a law keep the numbers down? A law removes any moral responsibility in making the choice. It becomes a simple matter of convenience. Morality becomes a moot argument in the face of law.

Basically, we are being asked to drop any consideration of morality in matters regarding procreation or even sexual activity, which only the State can define as being acceptable or not. Many people embrace the State's arguments without any seeming regard for it's encroachment upon individual responsibility for his own actions.

[Oleg Bach]

Worshipping the state can be a mistake - sometimes they mean well..and sometimes their policy becomes dated and is enforced because they think the people want what they enforce though law..I have never met a person who was happy about an abortion....the state has power with some to be their moral compass - lawyers will say

"It may be immoral but it's legal" - the state and some medical practitioners will say " It is legal thus it is moral" - the state makes mistakes...abortion is a drastic measure - it should only be used to preserve of the person that is first in line - the mother exists first - if the child is a treat to the mothers life then the child must go - we are not here to die so others can live - we are here to live at all cost. That is about as pro-abortion as I can get - other than that - there is no excuse for killing your own offsping - back in the 50s families would abort a grandchild if it was a social embarrasment - if the mother was un-wed - that was totally disloyal to the family and amounted to kissing the states ass by killing your own.

[tango]

But wait.

Abortion and it's very legal existence states that just because a woman is pregnant doesn't mean she's having a baby.

In fact, a woman has the legal right to NOT have a baby.

In the current legal environment, the decision to have a baby isn't made upon conception, it's made by the woman ON HER OWN.

So your statement above that a man should "take resposibility for his own actions" is invalid. The birth of a child is not inevitable UNTIL A WOMAN CHOOSES IT TO BE SO - ie. by her actions and her actions alone.

In reality, BECAUSE OF THE FACT THAT IT IS THE WOMAN WHO SOLELY AND ALONE ENTIRELY CHOOSES WHETHER OR NOT TO BE PREGNANT, IT IS THE WOMAN SHOULD SOLELY ALONE AND ENTIRELY BEAR RESPOSIBILITY FOR THAT CHOICE.

The man chose to conceive a baby when he had sex without adequate protection.

It's the man's choice to take that risk, and to be responsible for supporting the child to adulthood. EVERY TIME!!

I swear, I'm going to invent a chip implant so that every time a young man gets an erection, he hears a baby go WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA!

Maybe he'll remember what sex is about, eh?

Might have second thoughts about that cheapo outdated condom, eh?

Might just stop blaming the woman, eh?

It takes TWO to get pregnant, and if a man doesn't want to deal with the consequences (being a Dad, paying support for 18 years), HE SHOULD NOT TAKE THE RISK!

[Oleg Bach]

The man chose to conceive a baby when he had sex without adequate protection.

It's the man's choice to take that risk, and to be responsible for supporting the child to adulthood. EVERY TIME!!

I swear, I'm going to invent a chip implant so that every time a young man gets an erection, he hears a baby go WHAAA WHAAA WHAAA!

Maybe he'll remember what sex is about, eh?

Might have second thoughts about that cheapo outdated condom, eh?

Might just stop blaming the woman, eh?

It takes TWO to get pregnant, and if a man doesn't want to deal with the consequences (being a Dad, paying support for 18 years), HE SHOULD NOT TAKE THE RISK!

The reason why if feels so good during sex and orgasm is because for a moment we become gods that are capable of creating life on earth - personally - every time I had sex I was ready to except the responsiblity of being around for the next 30 years to protect and raise the product of that devine pleasure - that makes me a man - a good man - men that screw strickly for fun really don't know the purpose of sex - sure I had fun also- and was recreational..but in my core I knew what it was all about - I resent the fact that there are people who do not understand the some men are the same as woman and we are not all just dumb monkey sperm doners.