Canada's immigration policy.

[benny]

Are you confusing pax with empire? Pax means peace. The Pax Romana and the Pax Britannica are periods of relative peace during the time of each of these empires, and not the empires themselves.

Those Pax refer to the specific forced peace brought by Empires.

[CANADIEN]

As for the federal government promoting official bilingualsim for its own sake,

Official blingualism does not exists for the sake of official bilingualism. It exists as a reflection of a fundamental characteristic of this country.

[Machjo]

Those Pax refer to the specific forced peace brought by Empires.

So what do you think we can learn from these periods that we could apply in Canada?

I'm more familiar with the Pax romana than the Pax Britannica owing to my reading selections. One component of the Pax Romana involved a relative cessation of imperial expansion and a shift in focus to cultural consolidation, spread of the Latin tongue and Roman culture throughout the Empire. This spread of Latin also helped later to pave the way for the rapid spread of the Christian Faith which also contributed to promoting unity within the empire, though that was after the Pax Romana and not without its birth pangs.

[benny]

Official blingualism does not exists for the sake of official bilingualism. It exists as a reflection of a fundamental characteristic of this country.

Yes, Canada would now be a US territory if the French Canadians would have accepted Benjamin Franklin's (for George Washington) propositions in 1775-1776.

Edited May 26, 2009 by benny

[CANADIEN]

First of all, a second language is always strictly for personal gain.

If your definition of personal gain is monetary gain, you'd be surprised by the number of people who prove you wrong every day.

You are right on the money that spoken languages are exactly like programming languages.

I can't wait to read all those literary masterpieces of the FORTRAN language.

[Machjo]

Official blingualism does not exists for the sake of official bilingualism. It exists as a reflection of a fundamental characteristic of this country.

Again, I'm not clear what you want to say here. If my opinion, if a civil servant is forced to learn English or French just as a 'fundamental characteristic of this country', I'd define that as learning the language for its own sake. If you mean by this that demographic circumstances require some persons to know both languages fluently in order to be able to perform their tasks, then I can agree.

Just to take an example. My father went on a one-year French language course in the military paid for by the taxpayer, and yet he still can't speak French. He can understand much of it, but that's it. And this is after having heard it in the home between me and my mother over the years. Imagine! Now you explain to me how that money was wisely invested. Remember, that's our tax money. I love my father dearly, and this is not a criticism of him. Fact is, thugh I speak a few languages fluently, languages are not my father's forte. Doesn't the government have trained linguist to advise on wise and efficient language instruction policies that will avoid such wastage of resources?

[Machjo]

If your definition of personal gain is monetary gain, you'd be surprised by the number of people who prove you wrong every day.

I can't wait to read all those literary masterpieces of the FORTRAN language.

I can understand you, Canadien. It ever shocks me just how materialistic our culture has become. it seems any sense of spirituality, of doing what is right, of valuing human interactions for their own sake, etc. is dying in this country and being replaced by nothing but material accumulation.

And as for programming languages, their use is valuable but limited, as you seem to understand well. Some people I just can't understand though.

[Machjo]

You know, I couldn't care if a person learnt Klingon as his second language as it does contain a culture of its own. perhaps a limited and fictional one, granted, but a culture it is none-the-less, giving the pupil a chance to thus compare to distinct cultures. But has FORTRAN developed a cultural community of its own? How would learning FORTRAN expand one's world view beyond computer programming? If a child learns Spanish with the same attitude, can we honestly expect that child to learn it well?

[benny]

So what do you think we can learn from these periods that we could apply in Canada?

Empires seem to me to base their political decisions on the very powerful assumption that all the different peoples of the world will have to blend together for the better or for the worst and, the sooner the better.

[Machjo]

Empires seem to me to base their political decisions on the very powerful assumption that all the different peoples of the world will have to blend together for the better or for the worst and, the sooner the better.

The problem with empire though is that it intends to achieve unity through the imposition of the dominant culture on others, which is bound to promote resistance and conflict, unlike federation which tries to promote unity through consultation.

[benny]

The problem with empire though is that it intends to achieve unity through the imposition of the dominant culture on others, which is bound to promote resistance and conflict, unlike federation which tries to promote unity through consultation.

At the end of the day, it is up to the peoples to judge the relative worthiness of the Pax that was achieved through empires.

[Leafless]

The French language is not dead in Canada. And Canada is a CANADIAN country. Whether you like it or not.

Unless of course you want to make a fool of yourself by arguing that I am not really Canadian.

You are French as indicated by your screen name which means you are supposedly French speaking which you are not as you are communicating in the English language.

Admit it CANADIEN that you have betrayed your own culture and are not a CANADIEN.

When I go to Quebec and ask something speaking the English language I am sometimes ask 'comprend le francais'.

Now that is a CANADIENE who does not know the international language of the world and the majority language of Canada.

The definiton of Canadian is simply a person born or is living in Canada with no emphasis on language.

So why don't you simply change your screen name to CANADIAN to avoid confusion and reflect you are but one of a multiude of nationalities.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Leafless

[Machjo]

You are French as indicated by your screen name which means you are supposedly French speaking which you are not as you are communicating in the English language.

Admit it CANADIEN that you have betrayed your own culture and are not a CANADIEN.

When I go to Quebec and ask something speaking the English language I am sometimes ask 'comprend le francais'.

Now that is a CANADIENE who does not know the international language of the world and the majority language of Canada.

The definiton of Canadian is simply a person born or is living in Canada with no emphasis on language.

So why don't you simply change your screen name to CANADIAN to avoid confusion and reflect you are but one of a multiude of nationalities.

What you just said makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So now you're suggesting that being bilingual somehow equates with being a traitor to one's culture? Just when I thought I'd seen it all.

[CANADIEN]

deleted

Edited May 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[CANADIEN]

You are French

I am not. I am Canadian.

As indicated by your screen name which means you are

... Canadian

supposedly French speaking which you are not as you are communicating in the English language.

Admit it CANADIEN that you have betrayed your own culture and are not a CANADIEN.

Let me get that one straight. I am French, yet I am not French because I can write in English, which means I am betraying my culture... while trying to impose it upon you, if we are to believe your theory.

Of the truely stupid things I have seen here, this one has a place of its own. :lol:

The definiton of Canadian is simply a person born or is living in Canada with no emphasis on language.

Remember that one next time you're tempted to make a fool of yourself by claiming I am French instead of Canadian.

So why don't you simply change your screen name to CANADIAN to avoid confusion and reflect you are but one of a multiude of nationalities.

You're the only one being confused (oh surprise) and BTW I have one nation... Canada.

Edited May 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

[benny]

When I go to Quebec and ask something speaking the English language I am sometimes ask 'comprend le francais'.

Learning French for some English-speaking Canadians may be, in the future, the only way to avoid Quebec's independence.

[Argus]

Correction:

And ignorance.

He's essentially promoting assimilation of various people to the majority English-speaking culture. Let's not confuse assimilation with integration. Assimilation implies not just learning a second culture, but rather replacing one culture with another. That essentially is culturla hegemony and cultural imperialism.

What exactly do you imagine the ideal to be? Do you think all those Italians, Greeks, Poles, Germans, etc. who came to Canada in the early to middle part of the last century should all have retained their cultures, their cultural value sets, their languages? Do you somehow think this would be a GOOD thing for Canada?

Cultural imperialism is a term most often used when your culture overwhelms that of a smaller nation. You appear to believe that when the members of those other nations come here we should allow our own culture to be overwhelmed and sublimated to theirs - or else somehow this is cultural imperialism! A bizarre belief, to say the least!

The grandsons of Germans who came to Canada are culturally indistinguishable from the grandsons of Ukrainians who came to Canada. That's the way it should be. That's the way it needs to be.

[Argus]

Irrelevant. The only english country is ENGLAND. This is Canada, whether you like it or not.

Your daughter wants to chose Spanish as the second language she will study? Good for her.

I hope that when she is an adult she won't whine like her father and make ignorant statements like "this is an English country" when she realizes that learning the languages of more than one Canadian out of 5 would not have been a bad idea after all.

With continued strong immigration and the extremely low birth rate of Quebecers it will likely be 1 Canadian out of 10 by then.

[Argus]

I wonder how leafless will deal with the known fact that many in Quebec saw multiculturalism as an Anglo plot lead by Trudeau to dilute Quebec identity.

Well, many in Quebec are morons.

In fact, the federal Liberals pushed multiculturalism for various reasons. One was to suck up the ethnic population, of course, but another was to dillute the old English-French tensions, and to do this it was the old English culture which they attacked, removing the symbols and history in order to americanize the English here and remove British influences.

[Argus]

And Hydraboss. The way things are going, it won't be three languages in North America, but a multitude of languages worldwide. Internet, remember?

The nature of the internet is that one language predominates and it tends to influence people into learning - English.

[Argus]

I think I could agree to this depending on what exactly you mean. As for the federal government promoting official bilingualsim for its own sake, I disagree with that as it's a big waste of taxpayers' money. However, it goes without saying that higher-level public servants and military and RCMP personnel who do need to be able to communicate with all Canadians should be required to speak both of Canada's official languages under current circumstances. There's my nuanced response to you.

How often have you seen any communication from higher ranking public servants? Can you even name a single deputy minister or assistant deputy minister? Can you name any senior RCMP personnel? When was the last time you heard one speaking?

[Argus]

Official blingualism does not exists for the sake of official bilingualism. It exists as a reflection of a fundamental characteristic of this country.

Well, a fundamental characteristic of small parts of Quebec and New Brunswick, maybe.

[Argus]

. Fact is, thugh I speak a few languages fluently, languages are not my father's forte. Doesn't the government have trained linguist to advise on wise and efficient language instruction policies that will avoid such wastage of resources?

No. It designates all manner of positions as "bilingual imperative" without regard to whether the jobs actually require bilingualism. Everyone in Ottawa knows people who have been on paid language training for a year or more, and went back to work to rarely if ever use their second language. My sister is one such person. She is currently fighting with her department because she is paying $70 a week to a private tutor to try to keep up the French it took so long for her to learn (at government expense). Problem is, after she got the rating, she rarely ever uses it at work, so if she doesn't keep it up it'll fade away. And the government doesn't want to pay for her tutor.

If she fails her next test, though, in three years, they'll send her back to school full time at huge expense.

[Argus]

Learning French for some English-speaking Canadians may be, in the future, the only way to avoid Quebec's independence.

Why would we want to avoid that?

[Smallc]

Well, a fundamental characteristic of small parts of Quebec and New Brunswick, maybe.

According to my reading (don't have time to find it right now), about 1/4 of this country's population is bilingual.