Canada's immigration policy.

CANADIEN · May 26, 2009

a dead dialect of a language (french in Kwebek)

By the way, this IS an English country whether you like it or not.

Knowledge is really not your forte, now is it?

The French language is not dead in Canada. And Canada is a CANADIAN country. Whether you like it or not.

Unless of course you want to make a fool of yourself by arguing that I am not really Canadian.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

Why would anyone bother in an English country? Outside of Kwebek, what purpose would it serve?
My daughter is heading into grade 7 next year and has already chosen her options...not french, but Spanish.

Now THAT makes some sense.

edit:sp

I fully agree with her decision. Learning any second-language opens doors, and I'm happy to see that the school is progressive enough to give her some options. Besides, you'll learn your second-language better if you can choose one that interests you, as is done in many countries by the way. My issue though is with those who pride in speaking Loud-and-slow as their preferred second language, with an attitude that the rest of the world is to learn English, but Her Majesty's Royal subjects have no obligation to reciprocate. To learn a second language, any second language, simply show respct for those around the world who are struggling to learn English.

CANADIEN · May 26, 2009

First off, Franco-Canadian-cultures are not limited to Quebec. Secondly, the Franco-Canadian-cultural policies in place today have their roots with Pearson, not Trudeau. Thirdly, that these policies continued while new ones for immigration were implemented during the premiership of Trudeau remains only a coincidence. There is as of yet no proof that Trudeau pulled together two parallel running portfolios as a Machiavellian way of destroying "white English culture" (which itself remains completely undefined), as you now, in an attempt to retroactively make sense of your earlier posts, keep asserting he did. As the statement goes: correlation does not imply causation.

I wonder how leafless will deal with the known fact that many in Quebec saw multiculturalism as an Anglo plot lead by Trudeau to dilute Quebec identity.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

The only thing relating to imperialism in Canada is Quebec's empire building fuelled by Trudeau's cultural policies.

We need to pull the moat our of our eyes first. I agree that Quebec's Bill 101 goes a little far, and that Trudeau pulled a few dirty stunts too. However, that does not negate English-Canada's involvement in forced assimilation through the generations. Let's be honest and admit that both English and French Canada bear some guilt here. Let's try to be just a little unbiassed.

Hydraboss · May 26, 2009

I fully agree with her decision. Learning any second-language opens doors, and I'm happy to see that the school is progressive enough to give her some options. Besides, you'll learn your second-language better if you can choose one that interests you, as is done in many countries by the way. My issue though is with those who pride in speaking Loud-and-slow as their preferred second language, with an attitude that the rest of the world is to learn English, but Her Majesty's Royal subjects have no obligation to reciprocate. To learn a second language, any second language, simply show respct for those around the world who are struggling to learn English.

The choice of a second language has absolutely nothing to do with "simply show(ing) respct for those around the world who are struggling to learn English". It's a business decision on her part, and a smart one at that. It won't be that far in the future when you will have to choose to do business in three languages in North America. English, Spanish and/or Mandarin/Chinese. The only one not in the equation is french.

g_bambino · May 26, 2009

I wonder how leafless will deal with the known fact that many in Quebec saw multiculturalism as an Anglo plot lead by Trudeau to dilute Quebec identity.

Only Leafless knows. And he knows what he knows; or, so he keeps telling us.

On top of your question, I'd like to know how a supposed communist could strive for multiculturalism when such an idea is completely antithetical to communism.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

Irrelevant. The only english country is ENGLAND. This is Canada, whether you like it or not.
Your daughter wants to chose Spanish as the second language she will study? Good for her.

I hope that when she is an adult she won't whine like her father and make ignorant statements like "this is an English country" when she realizes that learning the languages of more than one Canadian out of 5 would not have been a bad idea after all.

Actually, I'll have to defend him on this one, Canadien. Just look at Stats Can 2006, and you'll see that few Canadians learn their second official language well. The reality of the matter is quite simply that languages are difficult to learn. As such, motivation becomes an indispensable, crucial, decisive factor in determining success. As such, I can fully agree with giving the school the choice of second-languages to teach. This way, the school can, to some degree at least, cater to the pupils' linguistic interests, and so increae their motivation and thus chances of success. Let's say there are a few Spaniards in the neighbourhood that have piqued the child's curiosity, and so he decides to learn Spanish as his goal to communicate with his friends in the language. Why would we take that incentive away from that child by forcing him to learn French if maybe there are no French-speakers in his neighbourhood?

Also, though French may be useful for many Canadians, if all Canadians should learn French, that just leads to excessive competition in the job market and cuts Canada off from valuable relations with other countries. We need skilled multilingual personel in the modern world, not just two languages. So I'm all for leaving it up to each school to decide to itself which second language to teach according the what is best considering that school's circumstances. Besides, it would be just as wrong to impose one ethnic language on another people as it would for that other people to impose its language on the former.

Yes, I agree that bilingualism should be compulsory as a part of a well-rounded education and general culture, but I don't believe in the hegemonic premise that one language is somehow morally superior to another.

CANADIEN · May 26, 2009

It won't be that far in the future when you will have to choose to do business in three languages in North America. English, Spanish and/or Mandarin/Chinese. The only one not in the equation is french.

In your dreams. We are not going anywhere.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

It makes far more sense to learn Spanish when you consider the Spanish-speaking population south of Canada's border. To continue learning a dead dialect of a language (french in Kwebek) makes absolutely no sense. 20% of Canadians versus the multi-millions of Spanish-speaking people in North America??? No comparison.
By the way, this IS an English country whether you like it or not.

While I fully agree with your comment on the value of Spanish, it's a shame that you have to insult another culture as part of your argument. While I fully agree that schools should be free to decide for themselves which second-language to choose, I also belive that they should teach that second language with a mandate to teach respect for all peoples too.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

The choice of a second language has absolutely nothing to do with "simply show(ing) respct for those around the world who are struggling to learn English". It's a business decision on her part, and a smart one at that. It won't be that far in the future when you will have to choose to do business in three languages in North America. English, Spanish and/or Mandarin/Chinese. The only one not in the equation is french.

So as far as you're concerned, Spanish is not really a language brimming with culture, but just a linguistic business communication code akin to FORTRAN or COBOL, or C++? Oh, I can only imagine the kind of values you're teaching your daughter. Materialism at its lowest.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

And Hydraboss. The way things are going, it won't be three languages in North America, but a multitude of languages worldwide. Internet, remember?

CANADIEN · May 26, 2009

Actually, I'll have to defend him on this one, Canadien. Just look at Stats Can 2006, and you'll see that few Canadians learn their second official language well. The reality of the matter is quite simply that languages are difficult to learn. As such, motivation becomes an indispensable, crucial, decisive factor in determining success. As such, I can fully agree with giving the school the choice of second-languages to teach. This way, the school can, to some degree at least, cater to the pupils' linguistic interests, and so increae their motivation and thus chances of success. Let's say there are a few Spaniards in the neighbourhood that have piqued the child's curiosity, and so he decides to learn Spanish as his goal to communicate with his friends in the language. Why would we take that incentive away from that child by forcing him to learn French if maybe there are no French-speakers in his neighbourhood?
Also, though French may be useful for many Canadians, if all Canadians should learn French, that just leads to excessive competition in the job market and cuts Canada off from valuable relations with other countries. We need skilled multilingual personel in the modern world, not just two languages. So I'm all for leaving it up to each school to decide to itself which second language to teach according the what is best considering that school's circumstances. Besides, it would be just as wrong to impose one ethnic language on another people as it would for that other people to impose its language on the former.

Yes, I agree that bilingualism should be compulsory as a part of a well-rounded education and general culture, but I don't believe in the hegemonic premise that one language is somehow morally superior to another.

T o be clear here.

I do not believe that any language is superior to any other. And quite frankly, what second language anyone chooses to learn, or even if they decide not to learn a second language at all, is their own business. If you got the impression I think otherwise, you can scrap that one out because this is not what I thought, what I think or what I'll ever think.

Still, French is the language of a significant proportion of Canadians, and (rightly) one of our great country'' official language. It should be the absolute right of any Canadian not to learn the other official language if they decide to. But once you make that choice, don't come whining about how "unfair" it is that it closes you some doors in your own country.

CANADIEN · May 26, 2009

While I fully agree with your comment on the value of Spanish, it's a shame that you have to insult another culture as part of your argument. While I fully agree that schools should be free to decide for themselves which second-language to choose, I also belive that they should teach that second language with a mandate to teach respect for all peoples too.

The choice should be made by students, not schools. But that's besides the point.

Edited May 26, 2009 by CANADIEN

Machjo · May 26, 2009

By the way, Hydraboss. I'm quite fluent in spoken Mandarin Chinese myself. Do you realise that about half of China's populaiton is not functional in Mandarin? Trust me, your English-Spanish-Mandarin hypothesis will not suffice. Unless you're ready to learn 50 odd languages, you'r not going to be able to do business with the world. I know one woman who ended up getting a good teaching job just because she knew Classical Aztec!

The world is brewing with cultures far beyond Canada's borders.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

T o be clear here.
I do not believe that any language is superior to any other. And quite frankly, what second language anyone chooses to learn, or even if they decide not to learn a second language at all, is their own business. If you got the impression I think otherwise, you can scrap that one out because this is not what I thought, what I think or what I'll ever think.

Still, French is the language of a significant proportion of Canadians, and (rightly) one of our great country'' official language. It should be the absolute right of any Canadian not to learn the other official language if they decide to. But once you make that choice, don't come whining about how "unfair" it is that it closes you some doors in your own country.

OK, I can agree with much, but not all, of what you say here.

Though I agree that we should not force schools to teach a articular second-language, I do belive that a second language should be compulsory as it opens the mind. Yes it has business value too, but my main concern here is with how bilingualism changes a person's world view. In fact, to learn a second language well, one has to be open to it, requiring openmindedness. That the first point I disagree with. Learning a second language shold not be a choice but an obligation, only which second languge being a choice for the school.

Secondly, while I agree that choosing to learn Spanish would close a pupil off from access to the French-Canadian market, it also opens windows of opportunity for him to the Latin-American market. That skill shold be put to use. One way of doing so could be for Canada to promote more freedom of movement between Canada and Latin America, possibly through Labour-movement agreement with Latin American countries like we find between European countries.

And again, I'm not looking at it just from a business standpoint (though granted that's an additional spinoff advantage) but primarily as a means to promote more understanding between cultures to promote a culture of peace in the world.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

The choice should be made by students, not schools. But that's besides the point.

In theory I could agree with that, but we need to consider logistics too. Let's suppose the school has 100 pupils and they want to learn 20 different languages. So, are we to hire 20 different language teachers for an average of 5 pupils each?

If the school is large enough it may be able to grant some language choices. Otherwise, it shod consult with parents and go with what seems most popular and considering the school's linguistic resources, etc.

Oe thing I cold agree with would be giving pupils the freedom to choose the language they're to be tested in. So if the school doesn't teach it but the parents teach it at home, the pupils should be allowed to inform the school of this and the school cold then proctor the exam even if it doesn;t teach the language itself.

But as for teaching the language, for logistical reasons, that shold be a decision for the school not the pupil, to make, in consultation with parents and puils of course, but the final decision should be the schools based on logistical considerations.

CANADIEN · May 26, 2009

OK, I can agree with much, but not all, of what you say here.
Though I agree that we should not force schools to teach a articular second-language, I do belive that a second language should be compulsory as it opens the mind. Yes it has business value too, but my main concern here is with how bilingualism changes a person's world view. In fact, to learn a second language well, one has to be open to it, requiring openmindedness. That the first point I disagree with. Learning a second language shold not be a choice but an obligation, only which second languge being a choice for the school.

Secondly, while I agree that choosing to learn Spanish would close a pupil off from access to the French-Canadian market, it also opens windows of opportunity for him to the Latin-American market. That skill shold be put to use. One way of doing so could be for Canada to promote more freedom of movement between Canada and Latin America, possibly through Labour-movement agreement with Latin American countries like we find between European countries.

And again, I'm not looking at it just from a business standpoint (though granted that's an additional spinoff advantage) but primarily as a means to promote more understanding between cultures to promote a culture of peace in the world.

In case I did not make myself clear enough. If people decide to learn Spanish instead of French or English, they can go ahead. But they don;t get to complain afterword because the Government of Canada, provincial government or businesses requires some of their employees to know this country's two official languages. You will never hear me whine because some employers want employees able to communicate with their clients in Caracas or Mexico.

Hydraboss · May 26, 2009

So as far as you're concerned, Spanish is not really a language brimming with culture, but just a linguistic business communication code akin to FORTRAN or COBOL, or C++? Oh, I can only imagine the kind of values you're teaching your daughter. Materialism at its lowest.

First of all, a second language is always strictly for personal gain. Business would be the most sensible gain. You are right on the money that spoken languages are exactly like programming languages. They are for communication and instruction.

As for the values I choose to teach my children, those are really absolutely none of your business. Materialism at it's lowest? And you're quite sure of this, are you? And YOUR values are superior to mine how? Please feel free to espouse your idealism of how multilingualism will save the world, but keep in mind that people have been killing each other for millions of years regardless of whether or not they spoke a common language.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

In case I did not make myself clear enough. If people decide to learn Spanish instead of French or English, they can go ahead. But they don;t get to complain afterword because the Government of Canada, provincial government or businesses requires some of their employees to know this country's two official languages. You will never hear me whine because some employers want employees able to communicate with their clients in Caracas or Mexico.

I think I could agree to this depending on what exactly you mean. As for the federal government promoting official bilingualsim for its own sake, I disagree with that as it's a big waste of taxpayers' money. However, it goes without saying that higher-level public servants and military and RCMP personnel who do need to be able to communicate with all Canadians should be required to speak both of Canada's official languages under current circumstances. There's my nuanced response to you.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

First of all, a second language is always strictly for personal gain. Business would be the most sensible gain. You are right on the money that spoken languages are exactly like programming languages. They are for communication and instruction.
As for the values I choose to teach my children, those are really absolutely none of your business. Materialism at it's lowest? And you're quite sure of this, are you? And YOUR values are superior to mine how? Please feel free to espouse your idealism of how multilingualism will save the world, but keep in mind that people have been killing each other for millions of years regardless of whether or not they spoke a common language.

Though I've always been aware of the business advantages of knowing a second language, I've never kid myself that there are plenty of ways to make mor money by learning other things beside language. My fondest memories in my various languages is the meeting of the minds and hearts that it permits between me and my family and friends.

As for language 'saving the world', no. In the US civil war, they spoke a common language, same with the one in the UK with Cromwell. However, the language barrier has either provoked or fuelled wars too. So a common language would not eliminate all conflicts, but would certainly eliminate those caused by miscommunication. In this respect, having more Canadians knowing Spanish could be a good way to promote a closer friendship between Canada and Latin America. And no, there is no word for friendship in C++.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

And Hydraboos, if you're teaching your daughter to value second-language learning solely for its material benefits, that is purely materialistic. As for its being 'none of my business', I disagree. How I raise my kids affects the society around me, and so is your business. And so the welfare of your children is mine. So yes, it's my business. It takes a village to raise a child, as the saying goes.

You're free to disagree with me.

benny · May 26, 2009

Of course not.
Canada WAS a country built by White, English speaking immigrants and other cultures who assimilated to Western ideologies.

Canada was never such a country but was such a colony.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

Canada was never such a country but was such a colony.

Interesting you should have noticed the imperialistic connotation too.

benny · May 26, 2009

Interesting you should have noticed the imperialistic connotation too.

Rome (Pax Romana) was simply an easy model for the British Empire (Pax Britanica) to follow.

Machjo · May 26, 2009

Rome (Pax Romana) was simply an easy model for the British Empire (Pax Britanica) to follow.

Are you confusing pax with empire? Pax means peace. The Pax Romana and the Pax Britannica are periods of relative peace during the time of each of these empires, and not the empires themselves.