Arar's wife wins Ottawa NDP nomination

[Sully]

For example there are many reasons for unemployment, here in BC there are significant amounts forestry workers, former government employees, and health care workers who will be out of a job. The reasons behind a major portion of unemployment is political (softwood lumber dispute, Liberals trying to revamp our ailing health care, reduction of a bloated government) as well as economic conditions. Being skilled and educated does not guarantee anyone a job, we are all at the mercy of economics (supply and demand) and politics. Those two key issues make a siginificant contribution to unemployment figures.

[Black Dog]

Thanks for making my point, which is that it's rather myopic to blame immigrant unemployment on a (perceived) lack of skills when there are so many other factors at work.

[Sully]

I have had to reply to d4dev comments like this:

What crap are you talking? IF FOREIGN TRAINED IMMIGRANTS WEREN'T AS GOOD (ACTUALLY THEY ARE FAR BETTER) THAN CANADIAN GRADS, DO YOU THINK THEY WOULD HAVE PASSED THE SELECTION CRITERIA OF THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT?

I was not blaming all immigrants for a lack of skills. I am sure some have great skills and others not so great. I have stated all along that businesses decide who gets the jobs and economic conditions determines how many jobs are available. But if this statement above were true than all available jobs would go to these amazingly superior immigrants, obviously that is not the case and I think we can both agree that there are many reasons for unemployment.

But its suprising to me that some people do not believe that these immigrants should have to face the realities of finding work like the rest of us Canadians.

[d4dev]

See this is exactly what I was afraid of lowering standards for immigrants to allow them to get jobs. I mentioned this before NO WAY SHOULD ANY CANADIAN support that idea. Its silly and will result in more trouble than its worth. How about making it easier for existing Canadians with skills to get work. I know we need immigrants and yes if jobs go unfilled by Canadian, then great let a skilled immigrant who meets Canadian standards fill that position. NO LOWERING OF STANDARDS AS YOU SUGGEST.

Please answer me why you think that an immigrant should get certified easier than a Canadian?

Oh man, you're like, have you read anything I have written above?

When you said that foreign qualifications are not compatible with Canadian ones, I gave you examples of how people coming to Canada are first examined by professional associations and their degrees are verified.

Only when the qualifications match Canadian standards, are they allowed to come into Canada.

After saying all that, hoq the heck do you still keep saying that standards have to be lowered to accept foreign trained professionals???

[Sully]

After saying all that, hoq the heck do you still keep saying that standards have to be lowered to accept foreign trained professionals???

I say this because of your comments like this.

And I think that the government should make it easier for immigrants to get jobs in Canada then. Like making it easier for them to get certified by professional associations.

Why do you propose government should intervene with an independent professional association? (Sounds like a leftist type of thinking)

Why do you say they should make it EASIER for them to get certified?

I mean tell me I am reading your statements wrong, cause I am only reacting to what you are saying.

Sounds to me like you want immigrant standards applied here and yes I think thats a horrible idea. I am sure that many immigrants meet a base standard, but in today's world its not good enough to meet just the base standard, you need to be above and beyond that to get where you want to be.

[August1991]

Only when the qualifications match Canadian standards, are they allowed to come into Canada.

That's plain wrong.

Immigrants are told that in most cases, they will have to have qualifications recognized in Canada.

Immigration Canada Web Site

It seems to me that this thread implies, in a patronizing tone, that starry-eyed immigrants come to the New Land by boat. Have these so-called professionals never heard of the Internet? Don't they get involved in discussion forums such as this one? (I would before immigrating to a new country.)

Canada is a highly regulated society in which unions (with government support) create many barriers in the labour markets. Immigrants are rightly upset by this.

[d4dev]

Sully, you misunderstand me. Making it easier for professionals doesn't mean lowering standards for their acceptance. Got it?

It means improving co-ordination between various professional associations so that when an immigrant gets certified by CCPE, he does not again have to be certified by other similar professional bodies. It means quit asking immigrants for Canadian experience before according them a license to practise their profession.

(In case you say that this is unfair to Canadian grads, I would like to remind you that Canadian grads pass out of Universities whose programs are already certified by these associations. So many grads don't have to get certified to practise their profession. Not the same case for immigrants. Therefore, I propose that professional certification for immigrants should be based on their experience in their own country, as well as their professional qualifications.)

[d4dev]

It seems to me that this thread implies, in a patronizing tone, that starry-eyed immigrants come to the New Land by boat. Have these so-called professionals never heard of the Internet? Don't they get involved in discussion forums such as this one? (I would before immigrating to a new country.)

No they haven't. Check out the internet penetration in, for eg, China (which is probably the most 'developed' of the developing countries) and that in Canada. What's more, they don't high speed down there guys!

[August1991]

China (which is probably the most 'developed' of the developing countries)

WTF? China? What planet are you living on?

No they haven't.

If they don't, then they've got a truly steep learning curve when they get to Canada and apply for those high-paying professional jobs...

Sorry, d4d, those "furreners" are not as dumb or backward as you seem to believe. Of course they have access to the Internet. At least, those immigrants that have the ambition to apply and receive legitimately on their own an immigrant visa to Canada.

And once here, they legitimately complain about all the absurd labour market regulations we have.

[d4dev]

Check this out:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/int_use_cap&id=ca

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/int_use_cap&id=ch

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/int_use_cap&id=in

Now believe me?

[August1991]

I have no doubt that the CIA would rely on locally produced bureaucratic data to draw conclusions about world Internet use and then publish this data on the Internet.

A smart Chinese guy thinking about immigrating to Canada is far ahead of any American bureaucrat. (I wonder if what the Chinese guy does even registers with the bureaucrat.)

d4d, who told all the other pilots to land on the morning of 11 September? (Hint: It wasn't the US government.)

[d4dev]

There's no need to be sarcastic, August. If you don't accept my figures, provide your own. You don't prove your point otherwise.

[Sully]

(In case you say that this is unfair to Canadian grads, I would like to remind you that Canadian grads pass out of Universities whose programs are already certified by these associations. So many grads don't have to get certified to practise their profession. Not the same case for immigrants. Therefore, I propose that professional certification for immigrants should be based on their experience in their own country, as well as their professional qualifications.)

Nothing is unfair to grads with the way things are now. Canadian standards need to be met by all people Canadians or immigrants, thats a good thing.

Well since Canadian grads going to Canadian Schools, getting a Canadian education probably write Canadian tests that qualify them for those Canadian certifications, thats a good thing. Thats great that they do not need to get certified by being charged to take a test later on. Again thats great, less bureaucracy, I do not see anything wrong with that, we are after all in Canada.

See the point you are not getting is that this is Canada, we should never base our standards or immigrants work experiences as a standard for Canada. Canadian immigration should be responsible for making sure we let in the right people into this country, people able to support themselves and love this country. It should not be immigration Canada's responsibility to convince businesses to hire immigrants. Immigrants applying for jobs after they have been certified here, have to convince the individual business to hire them based upon relevant work experience in their home country. It seems that you think that business and government are a single entity with exactly the same standards. Its the businesses with the final say on who they hire since they pay the billls, got it? Canadian grads go through all the hurdles that Canadian businesses understand. If I am an employer I am not going to hire someone unless the meet the standards specified for Canada and they meet company standards as well and it can be proven to me by them that their work experience is beneficial to my company, the onus is on the person applying for the job, no one else.

[d4dev]

I agree with your entire post, but:

See the point you are not getting is that this is Canada, we should never base our standards or immigrants work experiences as a standard for Canada.

This is where you are getting me wrong. In the case of immigrants,

1) They don't pass out of a Canadian school, so they don't have Canadian qualifications.

2) This makes it impossible for them to be certified by professional bodies in Canada because

i) They don't have Canadian qualifications.

ii) They don't have Canadian experience.

Unless they have one of the above, they cannot get jobs here. Therefore, they are at an unfair disadvantage as compared to Canadian grads.

It is impossible for them, therefore, to get any kind of job in their field, EVER!

So it is obvious that first generation immigrants will never be able to work in their respective fields, unless these hurdles are overcome.

You tell me, Sully, in your view, what are the chances of an immigrant getting a job in his/her field considering that they have:

ZERO Canadian experience

ZERO Canadian qualifications.

which, therefore, makes them impossible for them to get professionally accredited, which in turn, makes it impossible for them to work in their own fields?

[August1991]

2) This makes it impossible for them to be certified by professional bodies in Canada because

i) They don't have Canadian qualifications.

ii) They don't have Canadian experience.

For Geezus sake, as my Newfie uncle would say, who decided that? NOT the Canadian government. There is ample info on the Internet forewarning Immigrants about this.

Two points:

1) Canadians take rules, regulations, crazy laws for granted. (eg. booze can't be sold in certain stores or at certain times. To move a light fixture legally, you need a "qualified" electrician)

2) Most of the rules are designed to ensure Tom has a good salary because Dick, the immigrant, has to jump through hoops to become an electrician. Harry, the homeowner, is upset to pay Tom's wage so he hires Dick (under the table) and gets better service.

The end result is that Canada (or rather North America) is a good place to live. The government has crazy laws, and left-wing intellectual union types invent crazy rules, but ordinary, smart people can manage well a way around all this nonsense.

[Sully]

1) They don't pass out of a Canadian school, so they don't have Canadian qualifications.

2) This makes it impossible for them to be certified by professional bodies in Canada because

i) They don't have Canadian qualifications.

ii) They don't have Canadian experience.

to answer 1.)

When immigrants do not pass through Canadian schools, they do not have a Canadian education thats all, but may have the proper or close to proper Canadian qualifications. They may have gained these necessary qualifications at home or when they get to Canada and are subsequently certified by a association in Canada that oversees that line of work.

to answer 2.)

Well Canadian qualifications I believe can be met by the vast majority of immigrants, if not, its their fault for not understanding our system better. For the most part I think we both agree that meeting qualifications is attainable for most immigrants, there are no secrets or barriers that prevent this.

There is no reason why associations should certify people that lack the necessary skills that have been outlined. The lack of transferrable qualifications has to be deal with the immigrant and has nothing to do with governing bodies.

As for the Canadian experience, yes they will not have that nor would they if they never lived or worked here. Thats why its up to the individual immigrant applying for a job to convince that company which may potentially hire them, that their previous work experience is transferable to the job they would do here in Canada. I have a hard time thinking Canadian employers expect immigrants who just moved here to have Canadian work experience. But they do want previous transferable work experience and the people paying the bills decide that.

Unless they have one of the above, they cannot get jobs here. Therefore, they are at an unfair disadvantage as compared to Canadian grads.

I do not understand how you think immigrants moving to Canada would have the same chance at getting a job as a Canadian educated, Canadian Trained, Canadian Certified, Canadian Experienced worker. There is nothing tricky there, Employers know what they are getting with that worker, unlike the immigrant worker, thats a risk that may be deemed unacceptable.

You tell me, Sully, in your view, what are the chances of an immigrant getting a job in his/her field considering that they have:

ZERO Canadian experience

ZERO Canadian qualifications.

which, therefore, makes them impossible for them to get professionally accredited, which in turn, makes it impossible for them to work in their own fields?

Thats easy to answer, in my view they would have the exact same chance of getting a job as any Canadian or other immigrant with comparable qualifications and experience. The employer makes those decisions.

[August1991]

The lack of transferrable qualifications has to be deal with the immigrant and has nothing to do with governing bodies.

Are you whacko? Governing bodies have nothing to do with this?

As for the Canadian experience, yes they will not have that nor would they if they never lived or worked here. Thats why its up to the individual immigrant applying for a job to convince that company which may potentially hire them, that their previous work experience is transferable to the job they would do here in Canada.

True, I am me. But how to prove that? Do you have a Gold Visa? How did you get it?

We old Canadians are innocent. Around the world, we have a reputation of paying debts, being honest, telling the truth. In a case of dispute, we politiely accepted perfidy, turned a cheek, and believed, "Life is More Important than this Minor Loss."

Not now.

The Canadian Passport abroad has no longer the same weight.

We are all suspect.

[Sully]

Gramps August please take your heart medicine!

Are you whacko? Governing bodies have nothing to do with this?

No kidding governing bodies do not have anything to do with an immigrants lack of qualifications only the immigrant himself does. Governing bodies state the qualification that need to be reached thats all, before anyone can work in a given profession. Some people think that those qualifications should not be so stringent, or tough especially for the immigrants, ahhh I think standards should remain as high as can be and we expect as much from immigrants as we do ourselves.

True, I am me. But how to prove that? Do you have a Gold Visa? How did you get it?

We old Canadians are innocent. Around the world, we have a reputation of paying debts, being honest, telling the truth. In a case of dispute, we politiely accepted perfidy, turned a cheek, and believed, "Life is More Important than this Minor Loss."

Not now.

The Canadian Passport abroad has no longer the same weight.

We are all suspect.

You are losing me on this one, could you explain the point of all this?

[August1991]

Gramps August

Cool!

Governing bodies state the qualification that need to be reached thats all

You don't think existing members have a say?

I think standards should remain as high as can be and we expect as much from immigrants as we do ourselves.

You've been conned, I think. The foreigners may be better than we Canadians, no? (Canada is a SMUG country.)

You are losing me on this one

Years ago, Canada was a 'good' country. Canadian passports meant the holder was an honest person who paid debts. If you had a Canadian passport, it was better than a platinum American Express credit card because it meant you were a CANADIAN.

Those days are gone. A Canadian passport is now suspect, like an ordinary Visa credit card.

The term abroad now is "plastic Canadian". Ever heard that one Sully?

[Sully]

You don't think existing members have a say?

Sure they do, all of them existing members together comprise the governing body whether it be through some democratic process and they then decide on what the standards will be.

You've been conned, I think. The foreigners may be better than we Canadians, no? (Canada is a SMUG country.)

No I couldn't agree with you more, we are force fed a lot of garbage about how wonderful Canada is. I mean we have horrible politicians, I do not hear young Canadians saying I want to grow up and be Jean Chretien or Paul Martin. Our politicians for the most part are as useless as tits on a bull.

Canadas productivity is laggin way behind where it should be, we are starting to see that the social systems we have set up, start to fail. Canada's GDP is not growing like it should be for the resource rich country we are. The Canadian standard of living is falling way behind US, yes based on GDP figures, not the best measurement but its the most commonly used. We love to poke fun and claim that we are glad not to be Americans yet we are so dependent on them economically its not funny. We love to point the finger at them and claim the high ground on subjects and watch them be ridiculed, yet we are assured of our protection and free rider status just because we share a border with them. Must be nice that Canada can enjoy all those benefits of that situation and not have any of the responsibilities.

As for one last thing, this is a serious question, can someone tell me what is so great about diversity, something that Canada prides itself on, I hear it all the time? There is no intention to offend anyone by that but I am really curious cause I do not know what it has done for me, yet I am always told that it is so great. Could someone shed some light on that and provide some insights that I may not be aware of.

Years ago, Canada was a 'good' country. Canadian passports meant the holder was an honest person who paid debts. If you had a Canadian passport, it was better than a platinum American Express credit card because it meant you were a CANADIAN.

Those days are gone. A Canadian passport is now suspect, like an ordinary Visa credit card.

The term abroad now is "plastic Canadian". Ever heard that one Sully?

Never heard of that one sorry. I believe Canada is not great country right now,its good but far from great, but definitely has the potential to be the best. If we only had strong focused leaders I think that would be a huge start.

Well times have changed August, you are living in a society where you no longer have to accept responsibility for your actions, someone is always at fault for your anything you do wrong. "I" is the most important thing in our society today, whether its how rich you want to get or whether or not you will do anything to become Prime Minister.

[Alliance Fanatic]

Actually in quite a few cases people from ethnic communities get lowered standards than whites simply due to skin color. The RCMP is a good example of this were a white male will need 85% to pass a test, yet a minority will only require 63%. Employment equity has made it alot easier for minorities to gain employment more than whites, I'm actually surprised that the government of Canada does'nt try to get those immigrants with the right qualifications to work here. Guess the government is screwed up that way.