Enough with the gouging at the pumps Already...

[Machjo]

The point is, is it to much to ask for Canadians to have price parity at the pumps with the US? For eff sakes we are an oil exporter. Canada as a Country makes money because of this. If the US can get by at whatever they are being charged at the pump then it would be fair to say Canada can as well.

Canadians should not accept excuses from our politicians. It's time we demand this from them. Canadians need to elect politicians who will construct and pass a law making Canada's retail prices at par with the US pump prices.

I don't care what any poster says, Canadians deserve this and should have this. Make it happen.

So any advice on how to do it? We must consider economies of scale too. In some more isolated Canadian communities, it might take alot of fuel just to ship fuel to a location! Who pays for the fuel used to ship the fuel? The taxpayer? Or do we just let it be swallowed up in company overhead which must thus be passed on to the consumer? Personally I'd rather let it be 'user pay'.

High gas prices can in fact be a good thing; they encourage more efficient use of gas, carpooling, cycling, walking, turning to public transit, creating a public transitsystem, building more cycling and walking paths, encouraging people to move closer to population centres so as to profit from mass transit, etc.It encourages more efficient use of our resources. We've been spoilt over the years.

[Molly]

The strategies you cite, Machjo, would be great, if applied exclusively in urban areas. (That makes them a more likely local, not federal, issue. )

Gasoline is not a luxury to be heavily taxed to discourage its use (like alcohol, or tobacco)... but many of the machines that use it, are. I could certainly see a very, very steep urban-address surtax on vehicles and fuel, and an equally steep surtax on gas-guzzling 'toys', like snowmobiles and jet-skis....

The truth is, urban planning leaves a LOT to be desired. Segregating the places people work from the places they live-- which clearly is normal practice-- creates the need for personal substantial- distance-transportation. It's not the rural people who have an hour and a half daily commute to work. Their workplace is just outside their front door! The schools, hospitals and other services that are unnecessarily concentrated in some town or city ? miles away, though... they must commute to those.

Edited April 17, 2009 by Molly

[ToadBrother]

If Canadians are paying so much in gas taxes where is the money going?

General revenue, that black hole that eats our souls and wallets.

[Wilber]

Canadians should not accept excuses from our politicians. It's time we demand this from them. Canadians need to elect politicians who will construct and pass a law making Canada's retail prices at par with the US pump prices.

Which US prices? US prices are all over the map depending on the region, just like Canadian prices. When we did a coast to coast trip two years ago, there were large regional variations in diesel and gas prices in both countries.

[Machjo]

The strategies you cite, Machjo, would be great, if applied exclusively in urban areas. (That makes them a more likely local, not federal, issue. )

It would be wonderful if local governments had the power to tax resources. But I suppose the other recommendations could be tackled at the lcoal level.

Here in Ottawa, the population is incredibly spread out. We don't need a city of the geographical size of Ottawa with the small population we have. Unfortunately, building more streets and highways just encourages suburban sprawl and, of course, gas consumption. We made our bed, so now we can sleep in it.

If local governments did in fact shift some of their infrastructure spending from roads to walking and bicycle paths, gas consumption would gradually decline asmore people decide to moveclose to work, or as more businesses decide to move closer to their customer base in the suburbs. And this reductionin consumption would naturally reduce the upward pressure on gas taxes.

Gasoline is not a luxury to be heavily taxed to discourage its use (like alcohol, or tobacco)... but many of the machines that use it, are. I could certainly see a very, very steep urban-address surtax on vehicles and fuel, and an equally steep surtax on gas-guzzling 'toys', like snowmobiles and jet-skis....

I personally do know some people who do use their transport vehicles, be they their car or motorcycle, for recreational purposes too.And how do we know that some guy living on an island does'nt in fact use his jet skis to go to work?Such instances might be rare, but it's not up to the government to dictate life-style choices in such minute details. Obviously your proposal would be unfair to the man who does in fact use his jet-skis to cross the river or lake togo to work while not taxing the man using his motorbike or car for recreational purposes. And what about the one who uses his car more often than his neighbour? I think the simplest and fairest solution would just to have a gas tax at the mump. Simple and straightforward. We can always compensate with lower income taxes. If walk to work, it's a net benefit. If you live 100 miles away from work, then it's an incentive to move closer to work.

The truth is, urban planning leaves a LOT to be desired. Segregating the places people work from the places they live-- which clearly is normal practice-- creates the need for personal substantial- distance-transportation. It's not the rural people who have an hour and a half daily commute to work. Their workplace is just outside their front door! The schools, hospitals and other services that are unnecessarily concentrated in some town or city ? miles away, though... they must commute to those.

I fully agree that urban planning has a lot to be desired, and voters are squarely to blame for that. We choose to vote in local govrnments that will favour suburban sprawl. They want our votes, what do you expect.

[tango]

Gasoline is not a luxury to be heavily taxed to discourage its use (like alcohol, or tobacco)... but many of the machines that use it, are. I could certainly see a very, very steep urban-address surtax on vehicles and fuel, and an equally steep surtax on gas-guzzling 'toys', like snowmobiles and jet-skis....

I think we do use gasoline like a luxury.

For example, on a recent holiday stores were closed everywhere but Toronto. The roads were jammed with people driving to Toronto to shop. People shop for entertainment these days and consume too much.

I think there is still room for more pressure (from gas prices) to force people to drive different cars and drive differently.

However, I also understand that there are huge areas of Canada with long commutes to anywhere, and a subsidy may be necessary.

I think necessity should 'drive', not consumerism.

[August1991]

Gasoline is not a luxury to be heavily taxed to discourage its use (like alcohol, or tobacco)... but many of the machines that use it, are. I could certainly see a very, very steep urban-address surtax on vehicles and fuel, and an equally steep surtax on gas-guzzling 'toys', like snowmobiles and jet-skis....

This happens in effect now because city car drivers must pay for parking, and they also pay with their time, sitting in traffic jams.

For this reason, in most of the world's large cities (eg. Manahattan), people take public transit.

The truth is, urban planning leaves a LOT to be desired. Segregating the places people work from the places they live-- which clearly is normal practice-- creates the need for personal substantial- distance-transportation. It's not the rural people who have an hour and a half daily commute to work. Their workplace is just outside their front door! The schools, hospitals and other services that are unnecessarily concentrated in some town or city ? miles away, though... they must commute to those.

People choose to live like this but I will I suspect that various land-use zoning laws explain alot of urban sprawl.

[August1991]

It would be wonderful if local governments had the power to tax resources. But I suppose the other recommendations could be tackled at the lcoal level.

Local taxes make sense when local residents receive public benefits - otherwise, the local taxes merely encourage people to shop around.

-----

Roughly speaking, the price of gasoline at the pumps follows the world oil price. If you add the world crude price per barrel to about 35, you will get roughly the domestic price per litre. At present, the world oil price is about $50/barrel and so the local price is about 85 cents/litre.

[Wilber]

Local taxes make sense when local residents receive public benefits - otherwise, the local taxes merely encourage people to shop around.

-----

Roughly speaking, the price of gasoline at the pumps follows the world oil price. If you add the world crude price per barrel to about 35, you will get roughly the domestic price per litre. At present, the world oil price is about $50/barrel and so the local price is about 85 cents/litre.

That's $50 US which is about $60 CAD, another thing people tend to forget.

[August1991]

That's $50 US which is about $60 CAD, another thing people tend to forget.

My rule of thumb is a rough calculation. The US $ world price per barrel added to 35 (taxes) gives the Cdn price per litre. (If the world price were US $100, we would pay about $1.35 per litre.)

As I say, it's a rough rule of thumb.

[whowhere]

Roughly speaking, the price of gasoline at the pumps follows the world oil price. If you add the world crude price per barrel to about 35, you will get roughly the domestic price per litre. At present, the world oil price is about $50/barrel and so the local price is about 85 cents/litre.

World Oil prices is a crock of crap invented by Alberta's oil industry. No such thing as World oil prices If there were you would not have China inking deals with Russia to buy oil for the next 20 years. Similar deals have been made with venzuala and other countries.

One thing is certain Canadians are being taken for a ride by the communist conservative party of Canada and their foot soldiers on mapleleafweb.

Well, we have NAFTA which means goods and services flow across the border tax free. I think the real problem is Canada is not importing enough refined Gas from the US. Problem two it's not as easy as driving down to the US and filling up a trailer full of Gerry Cans and coming back. The Canadian Government will stop you and some of you would also have issue with that.

What I think has to happen is a company has to be established. Once the company is in place apply for a licence to import Gasoline and then go find a Gas Wholesaler to buy from in the US.

I know communist Canada will try to stop this, if they do, Communist Canada can be taken to Court for NAFTA damages. On the flip side this would establish whether the US is a closest communist country or is in fact a free market. So the only obstacle to me saving money on Gas is Communist Canada.

Buffalo $2.12 - A two and half hour drive from me.

56 cents us, 68 cents Canadian, Local Gas Stations 84 cents. A 16 cent difference. It takes about 58 litres to fill my Car. I am being ripped off by $9.28 cents. With income taxes, at least $12!!!!!!!!! That's just me, what about every one else around me?

Over a Year, that is $627 being stolen from me by the Gas Retailers and the Government.

Am I being paid more than someone working in Buffalo? I doubt that very much.

The fact we are an oil exporter makes this an insult and offense to Canadians.

[August1991]

Buffalo $2.12 - A two and half hour drive from me.

56 cents us, 68 cents Canadian, Local Gas Stations 84 cents.

And as I said, add the world US $ price per barrel to 35 (local taxes), and you get the Cdn price per litre: about 85 cents.

IOW, Canadian taxes form a base and then the pump price follows the world price.

-----

But here's an idea. Should Albertans sell their oil in Alberta at a lower price than they sell it to other Canadians or foreigners? In Quebec, Hydro-Quebec sells electricity at a lower price to local consumers in Montreal (even foreign firms in Quebec) than it sells electricity to people in Boston, or Toronto.

Since Canada has oil, should gasoline be cheaper in Canada?

[Wilber]

And as I said, add the world US $ price per barrel to 35 (local taxes), and you get the Cdn price per litre: about 85 cents.

IOW, Canadian taxes form a base and then the pump price follows the world price.

-----

But here's an idea. Should Albertans sell their oil in Alberta at a lower price than they sell it to other Canadians or foreigners? In Quebec, Hydro-Quebec sells electricity at a lower price to local consumers in Montreal (even foreign firms in Quebec) than it sells electricity to people in Boston, or Toronto.

Since Canada has oil, should gasoline be cheaper in Canada?

How do you figure that, the price of oil (and gasoline) in Canadian dollars is dependent on the exchange rate. Taxes are a different component and vary with the jurisdiction. If the Canadian dollar went back to 60 cents US, the price of oil remained $50 US and the taxes remained 35 cents, the price per liter would increase by around 20% in Canadian dollars.

Quebecs hydro power is a renewable resource, oil is not but that is a question for Albertans. Artificially lower prices for oil will just increase dependence on the stuff. Not a good long term strategy.

Quebec sells electricity at lower rates to Quebecers not the ROC. Canada does not have oil but parts of it do. Is this a case of what's mine is mine and what's yours is mine?

Edited April 18, 2009 by Wilber

[Molly]

A two price system for an export commodity? So who takes the hit on the difference?

I'd be seriously PO'ed if forced to take less from you for my product, than from the guy just behind you in the line. Albert/Sask/NL would take mighty unkindly to it, and be well justified.

Or an export tax to force down domestic prices? NAFTA pretty much precludes that, but even if it didn't, see above.

[Machjo]

A two price system for an export commodity? So who takes the hit on the difference?

I'd be seriously PO'ed if forced to take less from you for my product, than from the guy just behind you in the line. Albert/Sask/NL would take mighty unkindly to it, and be well justified.

Or an export tax to force down domestic prices? NAFTA pretty much precludes that, but even if it didn't, see above.

What if the government simply sold the resources to the extraction companies at a higher price? That would not violate any agreement sicne if the resource is on crown land, the government can sell it at whatever price it wants, and each company is free to accept it or not.

If we did this, chances are fewr companies would be interested in buying the resources. This would mean less revenue for the government (after all, if there's no sell, there's no transaction), and the reduction in the oil supply comming from Canada would push world oil prices up.

The advantage though is that this could tempt other countries to sell mroe of their resources, and once they tart running low and the price starts to rise, then companies might be willing to look to Canada again and be willing to pay the higehr price. This would give Canada more money for the petrol in the long run.

[Smallc]

But here's an idea. Should Albertans sell their oil in Alberta at a lower price than they sell it to other Canadians or foreigners?

Hydro - Quebec, like Manitoba Hydro, is a public corporation. That's why we get a different price than the people that we sell to.

[Hydraboss]

And as I said, add the world US $ price per barrel to 35 (local taxes), and you get the Cdn price per litre: about 85 cents.

IOW, Canadian taxes form a base and then the pump price follows the world price.

-----

But here's an idea. Should Albertans sell their oil in Alberta at a lower price than they sell it to other Canadians or foreigners? In Quebec, Hydro-Quebec sells electricity at a lower price to local consumers in Montreal (even foreign firms in Quebec) than it sells electricity to people in Boston, or Toronto.

Since Canada has oil, should gasoline be cheaper in Canada?

I have given my thoughts on this in the past. Alberta should raise the price of oil substantially. We have the right without wandering into a NAFTA challenge. This includes (specifically) eastern Canada, who uses it in places like Sarnia, Ont for refinement (DOW Chemical, Imperial, BP Canada). Canadian gas prices at $1.25? Raise them to $2.25, and then refund back to taxpaying Albertans on their provincal income tax.

[Smallc]

I have given my thoughts on this in the past. Alberta should raise the price of oil substantially. We have the right without wandering into a NAFTA challenge.

Isn't oil priced on the world market?

[Molly]

LOL We could always shut down the pipeline, and buy it from Venezuela...

or Newfoundland.

[Hydraboss]

Isn't oil priced on the world market?

Yes it is, but that only applies to selling out-of-country. As Machjo stated, the Alberta government has the right to sell for whatever price it decides to within Canada. It's not like Kwebek would give us a deal on hydro electricity.

[Hydraboss]

LOL We could always shut down the pipeline, and buy it from Venezuela...

or Newfoundland.

Molly, exactly what pipeline would you like to shut down? Alberta controls the Alliance and the US certainly wouldn't want us to stop the flow. Eastern Canada receives it's supply (not all) from a pipeline coming up from the US. Want to shut that one down? The US would be thrilled as they would get to keep the product. The only reason they send it north is a reciprocal agreement that Alberta sends south and they send north. It's just cheaper than building another line from western Canada to eastern Canada.

Go ahead. Turn the valve to the right.

[Smallc]

It's not like Kwebek would give us a deal on hydro electricity.

Nor should they have to. Quebec would sell it to you at market price.

[Molly]

I have given my thoughts on this in the past. Alberta should raise the price of oil substantially. We have the right without wandering into a NAFTA challenge. This includes (specifically) eastern Canada, who uses it in places like Sarnia, Ont for refinement (DOW Chemical, Imperial, BP Canada). Canadian gas prices at $1.25? Raise them to $2.25, and then refund back to taxpaying Albertans on their provincal income tax.

That's the 'pipeline' that would somehow force the folks in Sarnia to pay Alberta price, instead of world price, for oil. THAT's the one we should shut down.

;o)

[Molly]

I find two-price systems problematic, regardless of which end they are intended to subsidize, Hydraboss.

[Hydraboss]

I find two-price systems problematic, regardless of which end they are intended to subsidize, Hydraboss.

Why? It isn't a question of subsidization necessarily, but regional pricing. Most (not all) products have a variance in price depending on location so I am simply saying that Albertans should be able to purchase products made in their own province for less than others. In order to do this effectively (as in the case of gasoline) one would have to keep the "cross border" shopping to a minimum. The best way to do this is to increase the rate to everyone and credit back those that have an income tax return that proves they're Albertan.

As was already said in this thread, Kwebek sells it's electricity to Kwebekers at a lower price. Why not Alberta? Why not Saskatchewan?

edit: I just noticed your signature line. Now THAT I like.

Edited April 18, 2009 by Hydraboss