What should Ontario's second-language teaching policy be?

[Smallc]

Would everyone please stop misspelling Quebec's name? It's rather petty.

[Machjo]

There's a lot more to power than speaking another language. Ask yourself why the First Nation people who may speak English, French, and their own language are in no better of a power position. The same goes for immigrants who have learned English and French (plus their own language). It has even been suggested that core course learning is dropping because some some students are spending so much time on language learning when they could be mastering the science and math in their mother tongue.

I agree with you there, but language plays a major role none-the-less. A monolingual English-speaker can communicate with about 7-10% of the world's population quite well, not to mention his access to much literature, be it of a literary or academic nature or otherwise. The monolingual speaker of Inuktitut however can't afford such a luxury. So while the monolingual English-speaker might choose to invest his time and money in more profitable courses than language, the monolingual speaker of Inuktitut might have not much choice but to invest much of his time and money learning English or French.

In this respect, we can say that the refusal on the part of a person to learn a second language is a form of linguistic imperialism whereby he's esentially imposing his language on others, thus making second-language acquisition a moral issue too.

[Machjo]

No policy required

English is the international language of law, aviation, business, science and tech ........

Hell - even the Chinese, Japanese, etc recognize this.

Not required and in fact a waste of time effort and money

Let the folks in kebec (which is where all this eventually leads when discussed in Canada) learn English - or stay inside the borders of their province - better for all of us.

Borg

What a considerate chap. I'm sure you'll agree with this too then:

Our language is our greatest asset, greater than North Sea Oil, and the supply is inexhaustible; furthermore, while we do not have a monopoly, our particular brand remains highly sought after. I am glad to say that those who guide the fortunes of this country share my conviction in the need to invest in, and exploit to the full, this invisible, God-given asset’. (British Council, Annual Report, 1883-84, Phillipson, 1992, p.144-145).

[CANADIEN]

Not talking about other countries - so try not to run from the topic - divert, divert and divert - we are talking Canada

The implants must not be working, you forgot that you were the first one to talk about Japan and China.

But let's talk about Canada.. You know, the country with rwo NATIONAL and official languages, and where individuals decides which of the two languages they use when communicating with their government.

When in kebec speak the lingo

and when pretending to impose English on others, try to spell words correctly

- that is fine - not too many people moving into that wasteland - when in the world English is the primary international language - french is a waste of money and time in Canada - only thing kebec offers is the swing vote - we can only hope they leave - sooner the better - an expensive cost to Canada - and not much more.

So now you wish that Quebec will leave? No more assimilation? The collective will be ashamed of you. And btw, you'll lose that battle too.

Make it all english - you want more - you can pay for your own training.

Borg

I already do. It's called paying taxes.

[Machjo]

Not talking about other countries - so try not to run from the topic - divert, divert and divert - we are talking Canada

When in kebec speak the lingo - that is fine - not too many people moving into that wasteland - when in the world English is the primary international language - french is a waste of money and time in Canada - only thing kebec offers is the swing vote - we can only hope they leave - sooner the better - an expensive cost to Canada - and not much more.

Make it all english - you want more - you can pay for your own training.

Borg

1. When it comes to second-language teaching policy, the world is relevent. After all, learning to communicate with the world is part of its objectvie, even if it is a provincial govenment mandate. The world is highly integrated now.

2. English might be a fine international language for the elites, but by no means for the general population, thus creating a new class divide, inappropriate in a democratic society. And even among the elits, it poses problems. it's estimated that about 15% of aircrashes are caused by a poor command of English! And when I was in China, I was amazed to hear of court cases international businesses faced resulting from mistranslations of contracts.

4. English isn't cheap. All the sources I've looked at suggest that in spite of a low rate of success, English instruction costs the world at least billions of dollars annually, possibly over a trillion. Not small fry stuff.

[Molly]

Universality isn't all it's cracked up to be. It is no more elitist for some to have multiple language fluency, while others do not, than it is for some to have impressive automotive skills, while others don't understand the signifigance of a dipstick.

I'd love to see universal AVAILABILITY of top-level second-language instruction, but making it compulsary is doomed to poor results and honestly, counterproductive. (What really needs to be compulsary is improved first-language education. Not only would first-language communications be improved, but one is far better equipped to take on a second language when equipped with a solid grasp of linguistic mechanics.)

Wherever worldview varies, mistranslation/misunderstanding will exist. Even perfect translation of words-- even common language-- is not proof against miscommunication. And no matter what vector language is used there will still be some struggle for true communication.

Have you never struggled to understand a telemarketer or tech support person fluently speaking your own language heavy with the accents of the other side of the planet?

Languages are living things. They are not static. There is no such thing as learning a language 'once and for all'- not even if it's a constructed language, because additions/deletions shifts in nuance, and meanings relative to other languages cannot be controlled.

[Machjo]

Universality isn't all it's cracked up to be. It is no more elitist for some to have multiple language fluency, while others do not, than it is for some to have impressive automotive skills, while others don't understand the signifigance of a dipstick.

I'd love to see universal AVAILABILITY of top-level second-language instruction, but making it compulsary is doomed to poor results and honestly, counterproductive. (What really needs to be compulsary is improved first-language education. Not only would first-language communications be improved, but one is far better equipped to take on a second language when equipped with a solid grasp of linguistic mechanics.)

Wherever worldview varies, mistranslation/misunderstanding will exist. Even perfect translation of words-- even common language-- is not proof against miscommunication. And no matter what vector language is used there will still be some struggle for true communication.

Have you never struggled to understand a telemarketer or tech support person fluently speaking your own language heavy with the accents of the other side of the planet?

Languages are living things. They are not static. There is no such thing as learning a language 'once and for all'- not even if it's a constructed language, because additions/deletions shifts in nuance, and meanings relative to other languages cannot be controlled.

I agree that unless a schol can gurantee a good chance of fluency before the end of compulsory education, it forfeits its moral right to make it compulsory. However, if a school can guarantee a good chance of success, then it aught to make a second-language compulsory, as it opens the mind to information and world-views that would otherwise not be accessible. This is not just about jobs, but also about peace. Communities that can't communicate with one another are more likely to harbour stereotypes about each other than those who can. And this can lead to or fuel conflicts.

As for elitism, that's where I believe giving schools more language options could be of advantage, whereby if one second-language is too difficult to learn, they could teach an easier oneinstead, not just for jobskills, but to promote more communication between groups and thus more peace.

[Molly]

Fair enough.

Our greatest difference of opinion is that IMO, 'compulsary' and 'good chance of success' are, in practical terms, very nearly mutually exclusive.

[Machjo]

Fair enough.

Our greatest difference of opinion is that IMO, 'compulsary' and 'good chance of success' are, in practical terms, very nearly mutually exclusive.

I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) that our views, though not identical, are likley nearly so. As for 'sccess', I'd define it as the ability to use the language independently of other languages, so a much higher rate than is currently expected. As for chances of success, seeing that right now, only aobut 15% of Canadians claim to know both official languages, if this should reflect the percentage of schools that can guarantee a reasonable rate of success, then it might be only about 15% of schools that could in fact defend their right to make a second-language compulsory. And chances are that many of these schools would be located in mostly bilingual communities.

It might be possible to expand the rate a little by breaking out of the confines of English and French only. For instance, some schools in Vancouver might be able to guarantee a decent chance of success in Mandaring if they are located in a predominantly Mandarin-speaking part of town. And if it can do that, then it might be able to gain the right to make Mandarin compulsory as a second language in that particular school. Or another school might try the strategy of teaching an easier second language. Whatever strategy should be applied though, if the school can't guarantee a decent chance of success, then ift forfeits its right to make it compulsory, and at least in the beginning that would likely apply to the vast majority of schools in English Canada and a small majority of schools in French Canada.

[Oleg Bach]

French is dead in Canada..it's over. Look around, the country has changed, this is not 1950.

[Machjo]

Seeing how many billions are wasted on this nationwide, though, I'm surprised that this is never an election issue. There's no point making a second-language compulsory unless you can guarantee a decent chance of success, and 15% is not decent in my humble opinion. No teacher would tolerate such a grade on a pupil's report card, so how can we tolerate it on the report card of a ministry of education? Yet we do.

[Machjo]

French is dead in Canada..it's over. Look around, the country has changed, this is not 1950.

You obviously haven't travelled much. I've lived in central Quebec and I can say from my own observations that even secondary school teachers there are not even functional in English unless they're teaching English.

[Oleg Bach]

Seeing how many billions are wasted on this nationwide, though, I'm surprised that this is never an election issue. There's no point making a second-language compulsory unless you can guarantee a decent chance of success, and 15% is not decent in my humble opinion. No teacher would tolerate such a grade on a pupil's report card, so how can we tolerate it on the report card of a ministry of education? Yet we do.

Give them one single stop sign for 46 dollars and fifty cents. The French English issue was based on a policy of appeasement....that was two hundred years ago. England is no longer at war with France. Why do we hold on to some guilt ridden grudge from so long ago?

[Machjo]

Even in Montreal, I've met residents who did not know English, as well as residents who did not know French. Sure they were a minority (in Montreal, the vast majority is bilingual), but present and existent anyway, in Canada's third most populous city.

In Quebec city likewise, once we left the Old City, that was it, French all the way unless you were satisfied with someone giving you directions to thelocal libarary in broken English, and that is in the capital of Canada's second most populous province.

So no, French is far from dead in Canada. You just haven't left your home town much, that's all.

[Machjo]

Give them one single stop sign for 46 dollars and fifty cents. The French English issue was based on a policy of appeasement....that was two hundred years ago. England is no longer at war with France. Why do we hold on to some guilt ridden grudge from so long ago?

Sorry, but I'm not sure what you're trying to get at here?

[Oleg Bach]

Don't have to travel the world to see the big picture,,those that want to speak Punjabi,,,let them speak,,, those tha want to speak - some old dialect out of China,,,, let them speak - FRENCH IS NO LONGER THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

[Machjo]

Don't have to travel the world to see the big picture,,those that want to speak Punjabi,,,let them speak,,, those tha want to speak - some old dialect out of China,,,, let them speak - FRENCH IS NO LONGER THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN.

I think that's obvious, to me anyway. If what you're saying is that you agree that blingualism n school should not be limited to French in English Canada, then I completely agree. There is no point trying having a school trying to teach French to a pupil whose parents are investing all their time teaching him Chinese. Obviously it would make more sense for theschool to exploit that natural advantage. If the parents teach their child spoken Chinese at home and then the schol teaches him a smattering of French at school, then in the end he's essentially monolingual, with limited ability in both French and Chinese.

If, however, the school decides to build on what is taught i the home and teaches him written Chinese in school while theparents teach him spoken chinese in thehome, then clearly he has a muchgreater chance of success in becoming bilignual.

But to achieve this, schools must be given more freedom to exploit the local environment ad other factors to their advantage. At the moment, with French being compulsory across Ontario, schools have their hands tied behind their backs in this, and in this respect, we can't blame the schools entirely (they're just doing what they're told by the Ministry of Education). This becomes a matter for the Ministry of Education to fix bychanging its rules and giving each school the freedom to teach the second language of its choice, and to prohibit any school from making any second language compulsory unless that school can guarantee a reasonable chance of achieving fluency.

[CANADIEN]

French is dead in Canada..it's over. Look around, the country has changed, this is not 1950.

Indeed, time you join 2008.

[Machjo]

Indeed, time you join 2008.

2008?

[CANADIEN]

2008?

Ooops, typo :lol:

MInd you, read Oleg's posts long enough and you'll think even last year would be a big leap.

[Machjo]

Ooops, typo :lol:

MInd you, read Oleg's posts long enough and you'll think even last year would be a big leap.

J'en suis bien d'accord. Que pense-tu de la politique d'enseignement de langue seconde du Québec?