Rue Posted April 27, 2009 Report Posted April 27, 2009 Hamas has IN FACT said they will recognize Israel within the '67 borders No they did not and you are very well aware theydid not. In fact what Hamas did announce on Monday, April 2l, 2008 was that it would accept a Palestinian state on land seized by Israel in the 1967 war but would not recognize Israel. In fact what Khaled Mashaal did state was that Hamas might offer a 10-year truce with Israel. They have yet to come out and state they recognize the state of Israel's right to exist and you know that. Any reference they have made to the state of Israel's existence have been couched in meaningless rhetoric and baffle gab no matter how you try spin it or misrepresent what they said. This is precisely why Hamas leader Mahmoud a-Zahar stated on Al-Aqsa t.v. on Jan.4, 2009 that Hamas "must lay the foundation for a tomorrow without Zionists." On January 12, 2009 Kaleel Mashall another Hamas leader stated; "We will not accept a permanent truce, because it will take the right of resistance from the Palestinian people." The full text of his speech can be found at http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3368 and makes it clear Hamas continues to make it clear it does not and will never recognize the state of Israel. The rhetorical game Hamas plays can be followed as it plays out in the press but you fool no one with the above misrepresentation: http://middleeast.about.com/b/2008/04/02/h...n-of-israel.htm http://www.israelnews.net/story/351009 http://washingtontimes.com/news/2008/apr/2...-of-concession/ http://www.aljazeera.com/news/articles/39/..._to_exist_.html http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid...icle%2FShowFull http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/121818 http://www.turkishweekly.net/news/67249/-d...ize-israel.html http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/jpost/access/1666260441.html? dids=1666260441:1666260441&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&author=CAROLINE+B.+GLICK&pub=Jerusalem+Post&desc=Hamas's+free+lunch&pqatl=top_retrieves http://groups.yahoo.com/group/osint/message/65151 http://israeltoday.co.il/default.aspx?tabid=178&nid=9785 http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul...amas_mm0206.pdf http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...leeast&col= http://www.voanews.com/tibetan/archive/200...-03-03-voa8.cfm http://www.nysun.com/foreign/hamas-chief-w...-to-exist/40128 http://www.elitestv.com/pub/2006/Feb/EEN43f251cbae45b.html Quote
dub Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Posted April 27, 2009 Definitely not. I view them as an underhanded way for segments of Israeli society to profit from the hatred that Palestinians refuse to diffuse in order for saner heads to prevail. eh? what does that mean? the settlements are supported by the government of israel. it's one of the biggest issues in this conflict, if not the biggest. it sounds like you're trying to sweep this big problem under the rug while even trying to blame it on the palestinians. Quote
dub Posted April 27, 2009 Author Report Posted April 27, 2009 No they did not and you are very well aware theydid not. In fact what Hamas did announce on Monday, April 2l, 2008 was that it would accept a Palestinian state on land seized by Israel in the 1967 war but would not recognize Israel. In fact what Khaled Mashaal did state was that Hamas might offer a 10-year truce with Israel.They have yet to come out and state they recognize the state of Israel's right to exist and you know that. Any reference they have made to the state of Israel's existence have been couched in meaningless rhetoric and baffle gab no matter how you try spin it or misrepresent what they said. The rhetorical game Hamas plays can be followed as it plays out in the press but you fool no one with the above misrepresentation: you're correct rue. if hamas wants any kind of peace deal, they should formally accept israel's right to exist as according to the 1967 UN resolution. it's too late to turn the clock back to 1940's when a few countries decided that israel would be formed without the permission of those who live in that land. my question to you, rue, is, do you think that israel should be held accountable for their actions? because the current israeli government has vowed to never allow a palestinian state. they also give lip service and play a rhetorical game, don't you think? not only the promise to never allow a palestinian state, but they continue to increase the settlements in the west bank which also undermines peace. the internationally recognized illegal settlements is one of the biggest obstacle in a fair and just peace. fyi: Likud's vote against statehood has handed its Arab enemies a gift Israel's right-wing Likud party has no greater enemy than Yasser Arafat. And yet it has just done him a favour. Palestinian officials have long argued that, no matter what Israel's spokesmen say, the government of Ariel Sharon has no intention of allowing Palestinians to establish a state. Why else, they say, would Israel's armed forces have done so much to destroy the fledgling institutions of statehood during their invasions of Palestinian towns? Now the Likud, which Mr Sharon founded, has added weight to their case by passing a resolution saying that there should never be a Palestinian state west of the Jordan river. Palestinians reacted with public outrage to the resolution. It was passed with overwhelming support in the early hours of yesterday (local time) by Likud's central committee Quote
kuzadd Posted April 28, 2009 Report Posted April 28, 2009 rue, rue, rue.... Hamas has stated they will recognize Israel within it's 67 borders, link provided from a credible source. But since, Israel doesn't even recognize those borders Israel can continue to make the claim that Hamas doesn't recognize Israel. smoke and mirrors. But, rue, what borders does Israel recognize for itself? Where does it see it's countries borders located rue?? The illegal apartheid wall expanded Israel's border, and since that is still being constructed at Israel's whim and will... Where does Israel's border lie, exactly. What does Israel say about their borders? Where are they?? Oh and when has Israel recognized Palestine? Answer: never even a hint of it. Why: If they recognized Palestine they could not continue to expand into Palestinain territory. Like the latest west bank land grab. Israel's secret plan for West Bank expansion France 'concerned' at expansion of West Bank settlement No more make-believe in the Middle East "Settlement construction, (illegal) including the massive developments encircling Jerusalem, has continued for four decades. All of Bibi's predecessors – even the "doves" – never once slowed settlement construction, despite their repeated assurances. Throughout, despite intensive US monitoring and reporting on growth, the US has always pretended to believe them. All smoke and mirrors and it always has been. Quote Insults are the ammunition of the unintelligent - do not use them. It is okay to criticize a policy, decision, action or comment. Such criticism is part of healthy debate. It is not okay to criticize a person's character or directly insult them, regardless of their position or actions. Derogatory terms such as "loser", "idiot", etc are not permitted unless the context clearly implies that it is not serious. Rule of thumb: Play the ball, not the person (i.e. tackle the argument, not the person making it).
sharkman Posted April 28, 2009 Report Posted April 28, 2009 Wow kuzadd, I haven't seen you around in a while. Things must be looking up for you what with one of Israel's enemies, namely Iran, getting so close to the Nuclear Weapons club. Keep the faith. Quote
Rue Posted April 29, 2009 Report Posted April 29, 2009 (edited) you're correct rue. if hamas wants any kind of peace deal, they should formally accept israel's right to exist as according to the 1967 UN resolution.my question to you, rue, is, do you think that israel should be held accountable for their actions? First off I have a clear and open political bias against Netanyahu and Likud and support Labour-Kadima and in particular Tipi Levni so my answer is going to reflect that bias. As a result I believe in a two state solution and believe settlements on the West Bank are a serious obstacle to peace and in an overall comprehensive peace settlement Israel would have to be willing to take back in settlers from the West Bank in exchange and as part of a comprehensive and fair two way settlement where Palestinians would agree in exchange to give up returning to Israel. My personal fear is neither Hamas or other Palestinian terror cells are ready for that yet. I believe and call me naive that the majority of Israelis time and time again in polls have indicated they would be willing to accept the above if there was a guarantee of an end to terrorism. However yes we both know there could be a string back-lash from a segment of the Israeli population that is extremist and fundamentalist in terms of religious beliefs as to their right to ownership of land on the West Bank and many of them aresupporters of Netanyahu the current Foreign Minister Lieberman who I personally believe is a racist thug. That said, I think Netanyahu says one thing to the public and one thing behind closed doors no differently then Mr. Abbas, and other Arab and Palestinian leaders so its hard to know what is rhetoric and inflexible and what is flexible. I would guess Netanyahu may not be as rigid as he sounds and some of that is posturing but am I happy he was elected or that horrible man Lieberman was made Foreign Minister, of course not although I was relieved to see Ehud Barak is still the Defence Minister although I believe he will not last in the existing coalition and it is only a matter of time until he and Lieberman go at it. That said and back to your question, I believe Israel as a state as is any state, accountable under both its relevant domestic laws and military laws as well as pursuant to international law or its actions. Of course. It would be hippocritical of me to argue that Israel can do what it wants and break laws. The question often becomes in the debate, does Israel violate international law when it engages in certain actions to defend itself against terror. My argument is not that it should be allowed to violate international law if it did, but that often when it is accused of violating international law in defending itself it has not and the accusers are simply engaged in political partisan rhetoric. I do not condone anyone Israeli, Palestinian, anyone of deliberately engaging in violence, terror, criminal behaviour and no I can not on one side of my mouth argue against terrorism and then on the other side of the mouth say laws can be broken to fight terrorism- that is the dilemma all democractic nations struggle with. I have always maintained if it can be proven an Israeli soldier exceeded their authority and violated theircode of behaviour they should be tried before a military tribunal and or civil Israeli court and held accountable the same reason I believe terrorists should be arrested and tried before courts. The problem is these issues are not black and white. Hamas will not abide by any law, Israeli have to. It is not a level playing field. I do not doubt some Israeli military actions have been excessive and need to be held accountable and may not have been. There is no doubt in my mind from what I witnessed certain actions generate violent responses which only make things worse. I have seen situations where IDF soldiers over-reacted unintentionally and intentionally just as I have seen the same behaviour from both Israelis and Palestinians. There is as you know so much heat and tension and people one step from attacking each other at any given moment lose it. Everyone is under continued and prolonged stress and pressure from unresolved conflicts on both sides of the conflict and developing self-defeating and violent behaviour patterns as well as other behavioural patterns reflecting their trauma. Am I happy Likud was elected? Of course not. I do not approve of certain of their followers who demonize Palestinians but that is only a portion of their party although no doubt others in their coalition like Lieberman's party are extremist and hateful. As I said I am a Labour-Kadima supporter. My vision of Zionism was based on sharing the Middle East with Palestinians living peacefull side by side them not getting into a race war and you bet I think Lieberman is a racist hate monger and not worthy of the way Moishe Dayan and others in the past understood and lived and respected the ways of the Beduins or their Arab neighbours. But I also do not believe for a second that Lieberman's intolerance is indicative of the average Israeli's desire for peace any more then I believe the violence Hamas embraces is indicative of the average Palestinian's desire for peace. Am I naive? Yes and no. I realize Netanyahu got into power with an alliance of some very extreme people just as I know Abbas is part of an organization with extremists and they both are compromised to an extent by the extremists they rely on to cling to power. But I also believe the hate mongers on both sides make the most noise and get the most attention they are not the majority on either side and no I can not give up on peace simply because I see Lieberman where he is or Netanyahu making his usual chauvenistic noises just as I take it the same way when Abbas makes flippant Israel can call itself whatever it wants but he won't recognize it as a Jewish state, just a state. Its rhetoric and hot air and posturing. I am not sure what to tell you other then the above and be as blunt and honest as I can with you and make it clear to you someone like me can be a Zionist but not be anti Palestinian or anti Muslim or believe either side is better then the other. The vision of Zionism I was taught did not demonize Palestinians and wish them to live in a nightmare called Gaza or as second class citizens on the West Bank. No I can not blindly defend Israel when I think Israel does things that are wrong. Its not what Israelis or most Jews I know do. We are candid about things that have gone wrong. Its just sometimes we are careful what we say and to who because we know it could easily be exploited the wrong way to justify anti-semitism against all Jews and terrorism against Israel. Finally you have read my earlier posts. I want to live in a world where no one can use weapons let alone white phosphorous ones or nuclear ones or missiles and shit like that. We all bleed and explode the same way. No I do not want any Palestinian's skin burning from white phosphorous the way I would not want an Israeli's or any other human's burning the same way. I know Palestinians have been dehumanized in Gaza and I do not doubt Hamas exploits the conditions of dehumanization to incite more terror and violence. You find a way to disarm the terrorists on your side and find Palestinians who can engage in meaningful peaceful dialogue I will find you the peace supporters on the other side. You know many people like me. When we do fight we do so reluctantly and consider the fact we must fight a failure we are not proud of. Edited April 29, 2009 by Rue Quote
KrustyKidd Posted July 4, 2009 Report Posted July 4, 2009 eh? what does that mean? Pretty self explanatory. Land is worth money. Land cannot be returned in certain cases as there is no long period of affirmed peace between Israel and the Palestinians thus, Israel cannot simply throw land at Palestinians so, must keep the land until peace prevails - if ever. In turn, certain groups place prerssure on the goverment to enable the use of this land and, more than likely there is lots of bribes going around to boot. Rather than make peace, Palestinians sacrifice their own people by using them as human shields, confiscating medical and food supplies and continueing to lob missiles at Israel fom areas whcih house women and children. IOWs, they don't give a shit about their own but, as we know, even the Hamas leadership has stated that all Palestinians love death more than life right? the settlements are supported by the government of israel. it's one of the biggest issues in this conflict, if not the biggest. it sounds like you're trying to sweep this big problem under the rug while even trying to blame it on the palestinians. Excuse me? A moment ago, you didn't even understand what is going on and I had to explain it to you and now, you have a PHD in this? Dub! Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
dub Posted July 4, 2009 Author Report Posted July 4, 2009 Pretty self explanatory. Land is worth money. Land cannot be returned in certain cases as there is no long period of affirmed peace between Israel and the Palestinians thus, Israel cannot simply throw land at Palestinians so, must keep the land until peace prevails - if ever.In turn, certain groups place prerssure on the goverment to enable the use of this land and, more than likely there is lots of bribes going around to boot. Rather than make peace, Palestinians sacrifice their own people by using them as human shields, confiscating medical and food supplies and continueing to lob missiles at Israel fom areas whcih house women and children. IOWs, they don't give a shit about their own but, as we know, even the Hamas leadership has stated that all Palestinians love death more than life right? Excuse me? A moment ago, you didn't even understand what is going on and I had to explain it to you and now, you have a PHD in this? Dub! oh yeah. thanks for bringing this back. the rights organizations have concluded that israel committed war crimes by their unlawful use of WP. it's a shame that you support those who commit war crimes. Quote
KrustyKidd Posted July 4, 2009 Report Posted July 4, 2009 oh yeah. thanks for bringing this back.the rights organizations have concluded that israel committed war crimes by their unlawful use of WP. it's a shame that you support those who commit war crimes. Dub, I don't support either of the states. You however, support the ones who use their own people as human shields, conduct terrorism, torture their own people, kidnap foreign nationals and place their own population at risk by conducting open warfare in populated areas. Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
dub Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Posted July 5, 2009 Dub, I don't support either of the states. You however, support the ones who use their own people as human shields, conduct terrorism, torture their own people, kidnap foreign nationals and place their own population at risk by conducting open warfare in populated areas. you're lying. you told me to remind you of it when you do. all i support is international law. it's too bad you don't and instead make excuses for some who break it. Quote
KrustyKidd Posted July 5, 2009 Report Posted July 5, 2009 you're lying.you told me to remind you of it when you do. all i support is international law. it's too bad you don't and instead make excuses for some who break it. Quick search on Wikipedia. If any of these examples are wrong, please address them with counter facts. Instead, hundreds of Palestinians, including many women and children, gathered outside Baroud's house. Israel suspended the airstrike out of fear that the human shields would be killed or injured. In response to Israel's reaction, another Palestinian leader said: "We have won. From now on we will form human chains around every house that is threatened with demolition."According to a transcript translated and published by the Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI) on 29 February 2008, a Hamas parliamentarian spoke of a "death-seeking" culture where women, children and the elderly volunteer as human shields against Israeli military attacks. "[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people have developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking," Fathi Hammad is quoted by Memri in a speech televised on Hamas' Al-Aqsa television station. "For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children," Hammad is quoted as saying. "This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life,'" he said.[15] He didn't say that? What did he say Dub? 'Long live Israel?' Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
dub Posted July 5, 2009 Author Report Posted July 5, 2009 Quick search on Wikipedia. If any of these examples are wrong, please address them with counter facts.He didn't say that? What did he say Dub? 'Long live Israel?' you're babbling again. if palestinians "choose" to rally around their leaders in order to protect them, that's their decision. there is a huge difference between that and israeli soldiers going into palestinian buildings and forcing them to stay in the main floor thus using them as human shields. you reek of hypocrisy and lies. you don't support either state? what bullshit. Quote
KrustyKidd Posted July 6, 2009 Report Posted July 6, 2009 you're babbling again.if palestinians "choose" to rally around their leaders in order to protect them, that's their decision. there is a huge difference between that and israeli soldiers going into palestinian buildings and forcing them to stay in the main floor thus using them as human shields. you reek of hypocrisy and lies. you don't support either state? what bullshit. Hamas Uses Human Shields Mohammedweil Baroud said he was warned by Israeli forces to leave his home. He instead ran to a mosque and summoned neighbours to help defend the house.Mr Baroud is a commander in the Popular Resistance Committees militant group. Following the protest, militant leaders urged Gazans to repeat the tactic in the face of future warnings by the Israeli air force."We call upon all the fighters to reject evacuating their houses and we urge our people to rush into the threatened houses and make human shields," said a spokesman for the Popular Resistance Committees, quoted by Reuters. Two weeks ago, Palestinian women went to a mosque in the nearby town of Beit Hanoun in response to a request from Hamas commanders.Up to 15 Palestinian militants were hiding inside the mosque and a tense stand-off had developed between them and the Israeli forces surrounding the building. Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
KrustyKidd Posted July 8, 2009 Report Posted July 8, 2009 (edited) if palestinians "choose" to rally around their leaders in order to protect them, that's their decision. True however, using that protection, bragging about it, announcing over state tv where people may congregate to do this, extolling the virtues of it in political speeches and not telling people not to as it is wrong and may endanger themselves is known as ........ 'using human shields.' Edited July 8, 2009 by KrustyKidd Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
M.Dancer Posted July 8, 2009 Report Posted July 8, 2009 you're babbling again.if palestinians "choose" to rally around their leaders in order to protect them, that's their decision. A terrorist supporter rationalizing war crimes there is a huge difference between that and israeli soldiers going into palestinian buildings and forcing them to stay in the main floor thus using them as human shields. Yes big diff. One is against israeli law and even so was done to save palestinian lives and the other is against international law and is designed to endanger palestinian lives. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
M.Dancer Posted July 8, 2009 Report Posted July 8, 2009 all i support is international law. No you don't. I filed a report. You could give a rat's ass for arab war crimes. You support them and rationalize them. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
KrustyKidd Posted July 16, 2009 Report Posted July 16, 2009 all i support is international law. Without answering a question with a question what do you think of the breaking of international law committed by the Arab League on May 15 1948 when they attacked a country named Israel who accepted the borders of Resolution 181 and Partition? Wondering if you think it's ok to just try to wipe a people off the face of the world like they attempted to do. Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
dub Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Posted July 16, 2009 Without answering a question with a question what do you think of the breaking of international law committed by the Arab League on May 15 1948 when they attacked a country named Israel who accepted the borders of Resolution 181 and Partition?Wondering if you think it's ok to just try to wipe a people off the face of the world like they attempted to do. i think it's wrong for anyone to break international law. whether they're arab or israeli, it doesn't matter. what about you? do you think it's wrong for everyone to break international law? Quote
KrustyKidd Posted July 16, 2009 Report Posted July 16, 2009 i think it's wrong for anyone to break international law. whether they're arab or israeli, it doesn't matter.what about you? do you think it's wrong for everyone to break international law? Uh uh. The question was; Wondering if you think it's ok to just try to wipe a people off the face of the world like they attempted to do. Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
dub Posted July 16, 2009 Author Report Posted July 16, 2009 (edited) Uh uh. The question was; catch phrases are fun and all, but i'm pretty sure the arabs did not want to wipe people off the face of the earth. not like hitler. all they wanted to do was to drive the occupiers out of what they believe was palestinian land. regardless; they went against international law and it was wrong. so you answer the question; is it okay for israel to break international law? Edited July 16, 2009 by dub Quote
KrustyKidd Posted July 16, 2009 Report Posted July 16, 2009 catch phrases are fun and all, but i'm pretty sure the arabs did not want to wipe people off the face of the earth. not like hitler.all they wanted to do was to drive the occupiers out of what they believe was palestinian land. Little bit more than that Dub On May 15, 1947 Azzam Pasha called for "jihad", saying: * This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres and the Crusades". Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, agreed with Pasha: * I declare a holy war, my muslim brothers! Murder the Jews! Murder them all! Quote We're Paratroopers Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded - CPT Richard Winters
DogOnPorch Posted July 16, 2009 Report Posted July 16, 2009 dub: catch phrases are fun and all, but i'm pretty sure the arabs did not want to wipe people off the face of the earth. not like hitler. Just one important one in particular... Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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