The rise of Harper populism

[Visionseeker]

Not that i liked Mulrooney but his deficit was the reslut of bad management in the prioir adminsitration Trudeau, debt servicing and intrest rates are largely to do with the increase under mulrooney

Uh, no.

The deficits under Trudeau were born from the 50/50 formula for social programs that had the federal government matching provincial expenditures on health, welfare and education (a deal negotiated under Pearson). Basically, the provinces raced to overspend in these politically popular areas and the federal government spent years trying to balance the equation. Mulroney avoided the political football in order to placate Quebec and Alberta to promote and/or avoid opposition to his amateurish constitutional exploits. Mulroney cut federal expenditures, not the real problem - transfer payments to the provinces.

Chretien never campaigned on resolving the deficit in 92 (he was going to kill the GST if you remember), but public opinion had moved so far in the column of debt reduction that it became the fiscal priority in his first two terms. The results were stunning. If nothing else, the Chretien-Martin stewardship of the treasury (and prevention of bank mergers) is what gives our economy the capacity to absorb much of the current global recession.

[Visionseeker]

Let me make this plain: Stephen Harper is more honest and direct than Michael Ignatieff.

Sure. His first acts as PM:

Pull a guy from across the floor to join his cabinet (he railed about special elections for this kiond of thing when in opposition)

Names a campaign strategist to the Senate in order to bring him into the cabinet

Now that's honesty! But it doesn't end there. So lets make a game of it.

TO THE GROUP: Can anyone else provide examples of our PMs dishonesty?

Edited March 19, 2009 by Visionseeker

[Visionseeker]

The regionalism in this country that he made by maginifing poltical divides.

Right. Trudeau created regionalism in this country. Man, you are one dumb, reality avoident fu*k aren't you.

Alta4ever, or if I can call you by your given name - Fecalmatterforbrains - the Reform Party and the Bloc Québécois were Mulroney's legacy, not Trudeau's. Sh!t, You might as well argue that John A. MacDonald is behind it all.

In July 1982, polls showed overwehliming nationwide approval for the repatriation of the Constitution and the attached Charter of Rights and Freedoms (Quebec scored the second highest approval rating). Then in 1984, Mulroney makes a deal with the Devil and lends credence to the myth of "the night of the long knives" and the rest is history (a history worth writing, but I'd rather go to bed than waste my time educating someone as unreceptive and therefore unworthy as you).

Mulroney recreated and magnified the regionalism this country currently suffers.

[Progressive Tory]

Not that i liked Mulrooney but his deficit was the reslut of bad management in the prioir adminsitration Trudeau, debt servicing and intrest rates are largely to do with the increase under mulrooney

"Sounds like deja vu all over again." The Conservatives cannot handle the economy when times are bad. Stephen Harper and Brian Mulroney sound like two peas in a pod.

From Wikipedia - Many of Mulroney's ministers had little government experience, resulting in conflicts of interest and embarrassing scandals. Many Tories expected patronage appointments due to the long time out of government. The new Prime Minister's handlers were concerned by his seeming unpredictability and rumours of drinking.

On paper, Mulroney entered office in a very formidable position. Earning over 50 percent of the popular vote, he could have theoretically taken Canada in any direction he wanted. His position was far more precarious than his parliamentary majority would suggest. His support was based on a "grand coalition" of socially conservative populists from the West, Quebec nationalists, and fiscal conservatives from Ontario and the Maritimes.

Such diverse interests became difficult for Mulroney to juggle[/b]. He attempted to appeal to the Western provinces, whose earlier support had been critical to his electoral success...

Mulroney's main priorities, at least publicly, was to rein in the deficit, which was running into the billions of dollars. However, the country's debt increased substantially through his term. His attempts to cut spending limited his ability to deliver on many promises

Mulroney's inability to improve the government's finances, as well as his use of tax increases to deal with it, were major factors in alienating the western conservative portion of his power base. . Annual budget deficits ballooned to record levels, reaching $42 billion in his last year of office. These deficits grew the national debt dangerous close to the psychological benchmark of 100% of GDP, further weakening the Canadian dollar and damaging Canada's international credit rating.

Jean Chrétien - "On November 4, 1993, Chrétien was appointed by Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn as prime minister..... During his tenure as Prime Minister, a $42 billion deficit was eliminated, five consecutive budget surpluses were recorded, $36 billion in debt was paid down, and taxes were cut by $100 billion (cumulatively) over 5 years...

Edited March 19, 2009 by Progressive Tory

[Progressive Tory]

It's funny how every Conservative deficit is the fault of the Liberals. Yes, I freely admit that Trudeau ran deficits, but that doesn't excuse Brian Mulroney or Stephen Harper.

I just posted above from Wikipedia Mulroney/Chretien

Mulroney's inability to improve the government's finances, as well as his use of tax increases to deal with it, were major factors in alienating the western conservative portion of his power base. . Annual budget deficits ballooned to record levels, reaching $42 billion in his last year of office. These deficits grew the national debt dangerous close to the psychological benchmark of 100% of GDP, further weakening the Canadian dollar and damaging Canada's international credit rating.

Jean Chrétien - "On November 4, 1993, Chrétien was appointed by Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn as prime minister..... During his tenure as Prime Minister, a $42 billion deficit was eliminated, five consecutive budget surpluses were recorded, $36 billion in debt was paid down, and taxes were cut by $100 billion (cumulatively) over 5 years...

[Progressive Tory]

It takes time and money to clean up liberal messes.

Again from above:

Mulroney's inability to improve the government's finances, as well as his use of tax increases to deal with it, were major factors in alienating the western conservative portion of his power base. . Annual budget deficits ballooned to record levels, reaching $42 billion in his last year of office. These deficits grew the national debt dangerous close to the psychological benchmark of 100% of GDP, further weakening the Canadian dollar and damaging Canada's international credit rating.

Jean Chrétien - "On November 4, 1993, Chrétien was appointed by Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn as prime minister..... During his tenure as Prime Minister, a $42 billion deficit was eliminated, five consecutive budget surpluses were recorded, $36 billion in debt was paid down, and taxes were cut by $100 billion (cumulatively) over 5 years...

They left Harper with a 13 billion dollar surplus, which he blew.

[Progressive Tory]

Let me make this plain: Stephen Harper is more honest and direct than Michael Ignatieff.

Oh wait. You were serious?

[Progressive Tory]

You say: what choice do they have? Well, some choices are to find another party, found another party, not vote or oust him as leader.

Harper hanging on as leader is hurting his party. If he really cared, he'd resign. Canadians have given him his report card and it is a failing grade. NEXT ....

[Progressive Tory]

Sure. His first acts as PM:

Pull a guy from across the floor to join his cabinet (he railed about special elections for this kiond of thing when in opposition)

Names a campaign strategist to the Senate in order to bring him into the cabinet

Now that's honesty! But it doesn't end there. So lets make a game of it.

TO THE GROUP: Can anyone else provide examples of our PMs dishonesty?

Lied about Income Trusts.

Lied about fixed elections

Lied about not allowing lobbyists to work in gov't for five years when he appointed Gordon O'Connor to Defense, former Hill & Knowlton Military lobbyist and hired Kory Teneycke as press secretary, long time lobbyist for Ethanol.

Lied about the legitimacy of the coalition when he did the same in 2004.

Lied about there being no flags when they signed the deal.

Lied about the still missing 3 billion dollars. Where is it?

Lied about an elected senate.

Lied about promising to look into the Gurmant Grewal taping affair. Instead refused to even meet with Ethics Commissioner.

Lied about allowing his caucus free vote.

Lied about Chuck Cadman Tape.

Stephen Harper's Broken Promises

Whenever he say "Let me be very clear" he's setting us up. Example:

Let me be very clear: Canada’s government cannot enter into a power-sharing coalition with a separatist party.

This is an excerpt of a letter to then Gov. Gen. Adrienne Clarkson signed by Stephen Harper, Jack Layton (NDP) and Gilles Duceppe (BQ) in September 2004:

"As leaders of the opposition parties, we are well aware that, given the Liberal minority government, you could be asked by the prime minister to dissolve the 38th Parliament at any time should the House of Commons fail to support some part of the government’s program. We respectfully point out that the opposition parties, who together constitute a majority in the House, have been in close consultation. We believe that, should a request for a dissolution arise this should give you cause, as constitutional practice has determined, to consult the opposition leaders and consider all of your options before exercising your constitutional authority. Your attention to this matter is appreciated."

And he keeps good company.

Bloc part of secret coalition plot in 2000 with Canadian Alliance

A document obtained by The Globe and Mail shows that the scheme would have propelled then Alliance leader Stockwell Day to power in the coalition. A lawyer who was described then as being close to Day, says he didn't discuss the matter with the MPs

[Progressive Tory]

And rampant drug use should scare anyone who pays taxes and has to cover the healthcare costs of said drug use.

Do you mean alcohol and tobacco, which are legal and taxed?

[eyeball]

I can't help but wonder if the legality of alcohol and tobacco violates Canadian's Charter rights more than the prohibition of drugs does.

I think most people would probably argue that drug users are denied the liberty interest that liquor control laws afford drinkers, in apparent violation of section 15 guarantees of equal benefits. OTOH alcoholics are denied the same level of protection addicts benefit from in apparent violation of section 15 guarantees to equal protection.

I think the unequal manner in which the law protects alcoholics vs addicts could cause the biggest problems for the government.

Would it be too much to ask casual drinkers to give up their vice in the name of fairness and equality for all Canadians?

[jdobbin]

I can't help but wonder if the legality of alcohol and tobacco violates Canadian's Charter rights more than the prohibition of drugs does.

The federal court already told the government that they had to get the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act in line with the Charter of Rights back in October.

[eyeball]

The federal court already told the government that they had to get the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act in line with the Charter of Rights back in October.

So drugs are legal? I doubt it.

In the meantime alcohol and tobacco addicts are not equally benefitting from protection from harm in the way drug addicts are. As near a I can tell the Charter is letting these people down.

[Alta4ever]

I just posted above from Wikipedia Mulroney/Chretien

Mulroney's inability to improve the government's finances, as well as his use of tax increases to deal with it, were major factors in alienating the western conservative portion of his power base. . Annual budget deficits ballooned to record levels, reaching $42 billion in his last year of office. These deficits grew the national debt dangerous close to the psychological benchmark of 100% of GDP, further weakening the Canadian dollar and damaging Canada's international credit rating.

Jean Chrétien - "On November 4, 1993, Chrétien was appointed by Governor General Ray Hnatyshyn as prime minister..... During his tenure as Prime Minister, a $42 billion deficit was eliminated, five consecutive budget surpluses were recorded, $36 billion in debt was paid down, and taxes were cut by $100 billion (cumulatively) over 5 years...

Great you have proven you are able to post what happened but not why it happened. Come back to me when you have a reason why it happened. Now you will have to look at economic conditions, inflation, debt servicing amounts, and federal equalization amounts., are you capable of all that?

Yet all this from someone who claims they voted for and liked the mulrooney tories, before turning to the NDP.

I doubt you ever were a PEE CEE, you name is a lie you have never been a tory of any stripe.

Edited March 19, 2009 by Alta4ever

[Keepitsimple]

It's funny how every Conservative deficit is the fault of the Liberals. Yes, I freely admit that Trudeau ran deficits, but that doesn't excuse Brian Mulroney or Stephen Harper.

You're missing the key point - Trudeau fundamentally changed the way the federal government operated. He took a country with very little debt and through DESIGN, ran deficits to bloat the Federal government in size and burdon the country not only with a huge debt - but also the accompanying debt service charges. Here's an excerpt from an article to prove my point:

Year over year increases were modest through the '60s --with the federal government adding about $1 billion to the net debt each year. When Pierre Trudeau took power in 1968 he was handed a net debt-load of $19 billion. By the time he left office in 1984, the net debt stood at $172 billion.

Even though his successor, Brian Mulroney, ran operating surpluses for most of his time as prime minister, the interest payments on the Trudeau debt were so enormous ($20 billion in 1984, climbing as high as $45 billion in 1991) the federal government continued to be dragged into the red every year. By 1993, the net federal debt stood at $487 billion.

Link: http://www.calgaryherald.com/Business/Defi...2421/story.html

[jdobbin]

You're missing the key point - Trudeau fundamentally changed the way the federal government operated. He took a country with very little debt and through DESIGN, ran deficits to bloat the Federal government in size and burdon the country not only with a huge debt - but also the accompanying debt service charges. Here's an excerpt from an article to prove my point.

However, Mulroney solved his problems by raising taxes 19 times, not seriously cutting spending and then was diverted twice by the Constitution.

[Smallc]

You're missing the key point

No, you are. I freely admit Trudeau's deficits and changes. The reality remains....Mulroney, through two majorities (one with an actual majority of votes) didn't fix it. In fact, he made it worse.

[Oleg Bach]

No, you are. I freely admit Trudeau's deficits and changes. The reality remains....Mulroney, through two majorities (one with an actual majority of votes) didn't fix it. In fact, he made it worse.

Both men mentioned from what I understand and heard - both kept the company of arms dealers on occassion...and the sales of war supplies is the most dirty buisness on the planet - and now Harper continues with his "mission" to support war and profit from war - I really thought that he was brighter than that - But what are you to expect from a man who would rather win the Stanely cup and took on the Prime Ministership as a second career choice...Much like the former Priemier Harris - who really wanted to be Tiger Woods but settle for a cushy job and playing golf with Billy the boner Clinton and his Canadian counter parts.

[Keepitsimple]

No, you are. I freely admit Trudeau's deficits and changes. The reality remains....Mulroney, through two majorities (one with an actual majority of votes) didn't fix it. In fact, he made it worse.

Perhaps you missed one of my excerpts.....here it is again....and to put it in context, don't forget the exorbitant interest rates of 90/91 where lending rates were at 17 and 18% interest. Can you now acknowledge how it started and how it was so difficult to reverse?

Even though his successor, Brian Mulroney, ran operating surpluses for most of his time as prime minister, the interest payments on the Trudeau debt were so enormous ($20 billion in 1984, climbing as high as $45 billion in 1991) the federal government continued to be dragged into the red every year. By 1993, the net federal debt stood at $487 billion.

[Smallc]

exorbitant interest rates of 90/91

I just looked it up. It seems that Mulroney became Prime Minister in 1984. He didn't fix the problem.

[Alta4ever]

I just looked it up. It seems that Mulroney became Prime Minister in 1984. He didn't fix the problem.

And with an interest rate of 12% it would only take six years double and deficit owing. So in six short years any amount of loans the that country had would have doubled in size. So the only way to have gotten out from under trudeau during those economic times was to have paid the deficit off in ful the first year mulrooney took over the government.

[Smallc]

And with an interest rate of 12% it would only take six years double and deficit owing.

Unless of course, we would have cut spending and brought the country into a surplus position.

[Keepitsimple]

Unless of course, we would have cut spending and brought the country into a surplus position.

You must mean he should have undid all of the reckless growth in government that was instituted by Trudeau. Cutting spending is not easy....even Paul Martin couldn't do it - he just starved the Military, cut transfer payments to the province, increased EI payments and rolled all the excess EI into General revenues. There is no getting away from the fact that Trudeau is the genesis of our National debt and we are still paying for his "vision" to this day.

[Smallc]

Trudeau is the genesis of our National debt and we are still paying for his "vision" to this day.

Nice cop out. Mulroney had almost 10 years of majority to fix the problem and he didn't. The Liberals did. That's the truth and there's no getting around it.

Edited March 20, 2009 by Smallc

[jdobbin]

And with an interest rate of 12% it would only take six years double and deficit owing. So in six short years any amount of loans the that country had would have doubled in size. So the only way to have gotten out from under trudeau during those economic times was to have paid the deficit off in ful the first year mulrooney took over the government.

Mulroney made no meaningful cuts in service. He just raised taxes.