Harmonizing the GST and PST

[madmax]

I guess the 10,000 of big paying jobs being located in your province isn't a benefit in your mind. Then why did the feds just blow billions to save a few in the auto sector.... in ONTARIO only.... Don't start a movement to make Ontario whine thet they are victims of confederation.... If anything, we are the opposite.

There are no job guarrantees to these bailouts. This is a corporate bailout to ensure the future viability of a global corporation. The fact that all sectors receive corporate bailouts... the Banks received a huge one shortly after the september election, the oil sector is heavily heavily subsidized and some of the biggest clients at the trough of all governments are land developers. So, just because the Auto Sector cried for some money, don't go assuming that this is some form of job protection or investment in the future.

GM used the PRovincial Technology money to help build their NEW truck facility in Mexico. The billions the feds gave was to ensure that GM can continue its transistion without causing a crises to the Canadian Economy. Thus, we are choosing a slow bleed, rather then the toxic shock. It was good politicing on part of GM to sucker the Feds the way they did, and pretty Stupid of the Feds to do exactly what the PRovince is doing, which is handing over lots of money to corporations. There is a sucker born everyminute.

The banks were going to have a poor year, and they wanted the bailout monies over the tax cut, they figured they could do better that way. Most manufacturers were going to have an average year or low profits, thus a bailout is way better then the tax cut, and then there are the Tax cuts taken by companies like John Deere and thousands of others, laughing all the way to the bank, as they use Canadian Tax dollars to subsidize their move to Mexico....

We don't have to give money or tax cuts to companies that are leaving. But the corporations have the ear of the government. Don't start blaming this on the poor guy shitting his pants because their foreign owners have suggested they will close. They are going to close anyway, its just a matter of time, as we have chosen a path of de industrialization. For what reason the government wants to aid this endeavour, when it should be the sole responsibility of the Capitalists, is beyond sanity. But then again, its government and the current CPC are pretty irresponsible when it comes to finance, and the LPC position unfortuneately with regards to handing billions to corporations with no strings attached isn't that far off the CPC position.

When you consider that federal policies are designed to eliminate jobs, production, and encourage imports of all products .... then throwing a few billion at an industry that has no interest in saving 10,000 jobs will have the same effect as pissing in a lake to see if it will rise. Hundreds of thousands of people have lost their jobs, and the future of job creation will be based upon 3rd world economies. Wasting our taxes, to prop up an American company with no job guarrantees is retarded. Congrats Harper and Flaherty.

However, you are correct, in that false blame is being put on transfer payments, and after numerous discussions on MLW few people either ignore how it works, or still do not know how it works.

I do agree with Chuck that if he reduced the overall tax as they have in other provinces, I would support this move, as it does pose benefits and savings. Unfortionately, McGuinty wants it to also be a huge tax grab...

THis is a huge tax grab. Governments are looking for new monies as wages fall to unheard of levels. The stats are starting to come in and the wage gap is growing faster then you can say Banana Republic. Therefore, they don't want to go after the wealthy, because that is the base for many governments, and the middle class is declining. Therefore, you have to tax the lower and the middle class and the most effective measure to get this revenue is through consumption.

Thus, governments mask this new tax as a "GREEN" Tax, "CARBON" tax, or "HARMONY" tax, but the point is simple. The government is looking for new taxes, new sources of revenue, and they have SFA to do with the environment or harmony.

The government is simply on the take.

[Nat]

B.C. to harmonize sales tax at 12 per cent next July

British Columbia will be adopting a 12 per cent harmonized sales tax as of July 1, 2010 Finance Minister Colin Hansen announced today.

B.C. will have the lowest Harmonized Sales Tax (HST) in Canada, by combining the seven per cent B.C. Provincial Sales Tax (PST) with the five per cent federal Goods and Services Tax (GST), for a single sales tax rate of 12 per cent, the province said.

"This is the single biggest thing we can do to improve B.C.'s economy," Premier Gordon Campbell said in a press release. "This is an essential step to make our businesses more competitive, encourage billions of dollars in new investment, lower costs on productivity and reduce administrative costs to B.C. taxpayers and businesses. Most importantly, this will create jobs and generate long-term economic growth that will in turn generate more revenue to sustain and improve crucial public services."

http://www.vancouversun.com/business/fp/ha...0717/story.html

Hurray, I've been waiting for this for a long time!!!

[lily]

So once again our taxes go up.

Great news.

[Nat]

Gordo was going to have to find new revenue to balance his budget so the taxes were going to go up no matter what. But with the harmonizing the government will save money in administration so the taxes won't go up as much.

[lily]

Of course taxes will go up. If we want services, we have to expect to pay for them.

I don't disagree that harmonizing the taxes is a good idea, but why add them together? Why not have announced that the GST and PST would be harmonized and it would be "only" 11%, rather than 12%? We'll be paying more, because now we'll be paying both taxes onthings we only used to pay GST on.

[August1991]

I had been waiting (lurking) patiently for an answer....from August1991... to your question.

If the government imposes a sales tax on Pepsi but not on Coke, it is the same as if the government gave a subsidy to Coke.

The PST in various provinces were rife with such special deals - sometimes because Coke drinkers had the ear of a Finance minister, and at other times because Coke producers were the ones connected.

This is one of several reasons that this decision is good for BC. Only Manitoba, Saskatchewan and PEI have their own PST now.

Chretien started this harmonization process but Harper has got the two big provinces on board.

[M.Dancer]

This is one of several reasons that this decision is good for BC. Only Manitoba, Saskatchewan and PEI have their own PST now.

.

Pardon? How about Ontario..they haven't harmonized yet.

[Riverwind]

I don't disagree that harmonizing the taxes is a good idea, but why add them together?

Because the government has already provided many other tax cuts during its term and consumptions taxes a better than most other forms of taxation because they are paid by everyone.

[Nat]

Of course taxes will go up. If we want services, we have to expect to pay for them.

I don't disagree that harmonizing the taxes is a good idea, but why add them together? Why not have announced that the GST and PST would be harmonized and it would be "only" 11%, rather than 12%? We'll be paying more, because now we'll be paying both taxes onthings we only used to pay GST on.

But the Campbell government is in budget trouble and it'll just get worse without more taxes. This is just the simpliest way to do it as they don't want to increase our employment tax.

[August1991]

Pardon? How about Ontario..they haven't harmonized yet.

You're right. I guess I jumped the starting pistol. I see that Ontario is scheduled to harmonize on 1 July 2010 at 13%. BC will do it on the same date at 12%.

[jackson]

What about the question of what happens to the whole status card thing. I know in Ontario, Native people that are registered with status cards are PST exempt. So if they combine PST and GST how will they sort that mess out.

The provincial government said that they, along with Elected Council Chiefs are pushing for status cards to give the carrier exempt status for the entire HST tax. Clearly since the province of Ontario doesn't receive tax revenue from Native people they don't care if the federal government does. It seems to look like a 'native friendly' thing, but really just think it's good spokesman ship. They don't care since they know there's no chance of them receiving tax.

With aboriginal people the fastest growing population in Canada, wouldn't creating a new tax that may exempt that entire population of tax payers eventually create a problem?

Just curious

[Riverwind]

With aboriginal people the fastest growing population in Canada, wouldn't creating a new tax that may exempt that entire population of tax payers eventually create a problem?

Of course it will. However, the native apologists are not bothered by that since they are 'victims' and are entitled to never ending financial support from everyone else. I believe natives are zero rated GST which means they ccan get refunds for all GST they pay but they have to pay it up front. I imagine the same deal will apply to the HST. Edited July 24, 2009 by Riverwind

[jackson]

Of course it will. However, the native apologists are not bothered by that since they are 'victims' and are entitled to never ending financial support from everyone else. I believe natives are zero rated GST which means they ccan get refunds for all GST they pay but they have to pay it up front. I imagine the same deal will apply to the HST.

I'm not sure about currently being GST exempt by paying for it up front. I don't believe that they are, just PST exempt at point of sale. In Ontario anyway. I could be wrong but that's what I think. The Federal government did suggest that maybe a initial payout of the HST with a return could be the policy they enter into. I don't see a way around it, the Native population would have to be exempt as they are currently exempt from provincial taxes, and how would the government separate PST from GST when it's combined.

I'm not for or against Native people being HST exempt, just wondering others thoughts on it.

[Riverwind]

I'm not sure about currently being GST exempt by paying for it up front. I don't believe that they are, just PST exempt at point of sale.

The feds collect income tax for the province. The HST is no different. I would imagine the same rules apply.

[lily]

Natives pay tax on purchases made off reserve, unless it's being delivered there. They pay taxes when they shop everywhere else.

As for apologists - we simply expect our gov't to live up the the treaty agreements until the land claims are settled. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.

[Riverwind]

As for apologists - we simply expect our gov't to live up the the treaty agreements until the land claims are settled. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.

There used to be a time when people had legal contracts that gave them ownership over other people. Such contracts are immoral by today's standards and were properly cancelled without compensation. Native treaties are equally immoral leftovers from a racist age and have no place in an egalitarian democracy. Edited July 24, 2009 by Riverwind

[jackson]

Natives pay tax on purchases made off reserve, unless it's being delivered there. They pay taxes when they shop everywhere else.

As for apologists - we simply expect our gov't to live up the the treaty agreements until the land claims are settled. I don't see how anyone can have a problem with that.

I disagree Lily. I'm not sure where you are but in Ontario when you present a status card your PST is removed, not payed for. As far as delivery, yes, items do have to be delivered on the territory to receive the PST exemption. In stores though, at least in Southern Ontario, i don't know about everywhere, you are PST exempt at the point of sale if you present a status card.

Beyond that I do absolutely believe that Native people, on territory or off, should be PST exempt.

[benny]

There used to be a time when people had legal contracts that gave them ownership over other people. Such contracts are immoral by today's standards and were properly cancelled without compensation. Native treaties are equally immoral leftovers from a racist age and have no place in an egalitarian democracy.

If Ottawa wants to show its domination of Quebec is legitimate, it has to compensate Quebec for having harmonized its TVQ with the TPS.

[lily]

There used to be a time when people had legal contracts that gave them ownership over other people. Such contracts are immoral by today's standards and were properly cancelled without compensation. Native treaties are equally immoral leftovers from a racist age and have no place in an egalitarian democracy.

THe treaties we made with the natives are immoral?

Hang on. Let me grab a coffee. This should be interesting.

I disagree Lily. I'm not sure where you are but in Ontario when you present a status card your PST is removed, not payed for. As far as delivery, yes, items do have to be delivered on the territory to receive the PST exemption. In stores though, at least in Southern Ontario, i don't know about everywhere, you are PST exempt at the point of sale if you present a status card.

Beyond that I do absolutely believe that Native people, on territory or off, should be PST exempt.

Im in BC, and as I underswtand it, that's how it works here.

Natives also pay income tax too, for money earned off the reserve.

[benny]

THe treaties we made with the natives are immoral?

Hang on. Let me grab a coffee. This should be interesting.

Of course, they were made under duress!

[jackson]

THe treaties we made with the natives are immoral?

Hang on. Let me grab a coffee. This should be interesting.

Im in BC, and as I underswtand it, that's how it works here.

Natives also pay income tax too, for money earned off the reserve.

I think each province may vary in what they do with tax system. I think in Manitoba taxes are payed up front then need to be sent in for a return.

In Ontario it seems to be the easiest and best system. Status card carriers are exempt from Provincial tax and are just not charged at point of sale. Easy and no refunds, etc.

[jackson]

Of course, they were made under duress!

What are you even talking about? Treaties made under duress from who. I think you were trying to be funny, maybe? Didn't work, or maybe you were serious, who are you suggesting were under duress, the Native people or the Crown?

[benny]

I think each province may vary in what they do with tax system. I think in Manitoba taxes are payed up front then need to be sent in for a return.

In Ontario it seems to be the easiest and best system. Status card carriers are exempt from Provincial tax and are just not charged at point of sale. Easy and no refunds, etc.

As always, to avoid cross-posting, when it comes to an efficient tax system, I have to refer you to my topic:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=14436

[jackson]

As always, to avoid cross-posting, when it comes to an efficient tax system, I have to refer you to my topic:

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....showtopic=14436

I'm not talking about tax system in general. I was responding to someone about the Native status card tax exemption. IMO that is a different topic than general taxation practices.

Seriously though, what about your whole duress comment, I still don't get it

[Riverwind]

THe treaties we made with the natives are immoral?

The treaties are based on the premise that one's ancestry entitles one to rights that others are not entitled to. The underlying logic is the same as the logic used by the Afrikaners in South Africa to deny Blacks the vote.

It is worth remembering the historical context: for centuries Europe was ruled by a feudal elite who had rights bestowed on them by virtue of the their birth. These rights usually granted by the monarch for some service and once granted these rights would automatically be conferred on all descendants.

This is the mind set that these feudal lords brought to the table when these treaties were negotiated. However, time moves on and the majority of people in Europe have long since stripped these fuedal lords of their privileges because they were inconsistent with the values of an egalitarian democracry. Unfortunately, we have still have to deal with their legacy created by the native treaties and the feudal rights contained in them.

The joining of Newfoundland and Canada provides an example to illustrate how these treaties should have been negotiated if we were to apply the ethical standards of today. In that case there are no special rights granted to people of Newfoundland ancestry, however, the province of Newfoundland was granted certain rights and all Canadians, regardless of their ancenstry, have an equal say in the government of Newfoundland if they live within its terriority.

Edited July 24, 2009 by Riverwind