Destruction Of Wealth ?

[Oleg Bach]

Bantering media and counter cultural media go on about how Obama is destroying the wealth of America. I do not see this south of the boarder or here. The wealth is not being destroyed in fact the wealth has suddenly become easier for those in control- now they can simply file for a huge welfare cheque. Bail outs are to ensure that the wealthy stay wealthy. What else can it be? Billions upon billions are being levered out the population through governmental defict spending and bail outs. This money goes directly to those who have always traditionally been our wealthest class. The number of them is decreasing but the wealth is not - There is a whole sale firing of workers - AND ..now a removal of upper and lower management. The super rich are now cutting the throats of their own and a super class is forming - so don't expect any trickle down effect. This is the trickle up effect that is now a torrent defying grafity. There is no honour amoung thieves.

[Oleg Bach]

FIATISM-----DECLARATION BY DECREE. We have a natural revolution taking place. Those that declared themselves as kings have fallen...and we all now see that the emperor has no clothes or gold..that is the bottom line - we lost faith in our rich because they lost faith and care in us - we are the foundation ..now they do not have our confidence and trust.

[charter.rights]

FIATISM-----DECLARATION BY DECREE. We have a natural revolution taking place. Those that declared themselves as kings have fallen...and we all now see that the emperor has no clothes or gold..that is the bottom line - we lost faith in our rich because they lost faith and care in us - we are the foundation ..now they do not have our confidence and trust.

No matter what you call it, when government has to prop up business it is no longer capitalism. The death of capitalism is at hand.

However, corporatism reigns supreme. When they have squeezed the production, squeezed the workers, squeezed the investors for more money and still they have to squeeze the government to give them our taxpayer monies that are supposed to pay for our future, then we all know that corporations should no, longer be in control of their companies.

We need to invent something else. The American Dream has turned into a nightmare.

I'm not suggesting that we turn to socialism as a solution, because it requires workers to input. Workers have no means to input any more and with the Baby Boomers set to retire the burden under the past capitalism requires us to bear a bigger burden. However, we do need the kind of communal system where barter is an accepted practice and we thrive in an egalitarian society. The cost of investment can no longer be sustained since the world production of oil is peaking, and the over-production of goods no longer have expanding markets. Something must be done but we cannot allow government or business to lead the way. Instead change must come from the grass roots and we must look to our basic necessities for a clue of where we should start.

In my view this is just one more collapse of a segment of our civilisation that will never recover. The signs are in the failures of our institutions: government, education, health, justice and now finance. What's next?

Edited March 17, 2009 by charter.rights

[eyeball]

No matter what you call it, when government has to prop up business it is no longer capitalism. The death of capitalism is at hand.

For the same reason communism failed, no public oversight or control.

However, corporatism reigns supreme. When they have squeezed the production, squeezed the workers, squeezed the investors for more money and still they have to squeeze the government to give them our taxpayer monies that are supposed to pay for our future, then we all know that corporations should no, longer be in control of their companies.

Could we change the charters of corporations so they are required to include publicly elected representatives on their boards of directors?

We need to invent something else. The American Dream has turned into a nightmare.

I'm not suggesting that we turn to socialism as a solution, because it requires workers to input. Workers have no means to input any more and with the Baby Boomers set to retire the burden under the past capitalism requires us to bear a bigger burden. However, we do need the kind of communal system where barter is an accepted practice and we thrive in an egalitarian society. The cost of investment can no longer be sustained since the world production of oil is peaking, and the over-production of goods no longer have expanding markets. Something must be done but we cannot allow government or business to lead the way. Instead change must come from the grass roots and we must look to our basic necessities for a clue of where we should start.

I suggest that volunteer social and environmental restoration work be recognized and credit given where credit is due.

In my view this is just one more collapse of a segment of our civilisation that will never recover. The signs are in the failures of our institutions: government, education, health, justice and now finance. What's next?

The nation-state...if we're lucky.

Edited March 17, 2009 by eyeball

[Muddy]

This was all written by Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged. The incapable are now in charge and are being subsidized by the mass` for their their incompetence and entitlement ,yet they call themselves the brightest. The same executives who have failed. The same goes with our seniour civil servants. War ,and I mean real global war just maybe the terrible consequences and the cure for our sick system.

[gradkiss]

Actually, there is no cure...and History will prove...that all the branches of government(especially the Judicial) are total failures. The congress of 1791...made it standard, for the government to continually improve. Instead of following the provisions for government to operate upon wholesome grounds( the 10 bill of Rights)...they abrogated them...and did so bluntly and ebstractly...causing the former laws to be of no effect.

When one discusses economics, you must realize the protocol the US uses to govern us is money. Money, when used in a supply and demand economy, will always cause recessions and even death to the population. the procedures involved in handing around these unbacked dollar bills, cause nothing but the demenishing results. The ways and means of the puplic can not be effectively acheived...using money.

ref: "The History Channel" The Treasury prints the denominations of the dollar for just 8 cents each...then hands them 0over to us to make up the 92 percent difference. Then they charge us even more...they tax us and the benefits of the tax remain theirs...not our asset. If the truth were to be told...we as citizens should be worth over a zillion dollars each, just in the return from taxing us.

Remember the saying...'a government from and for the people"?

The US government, due to what the Congress of 1791 had as their wishes, placed protective clauses in the Constitution, in the form of amendments. These amendments continually correct, improve and revise the conclusions of government to conclude...doing the same for us. They wanted a place for the citizens...just as good as the place they wanted for themselves...one that would increase the moral...not one like we witness today...set in revenge and against morals.

All government today is guilty of ' moral terpitude'. ( flaigerant disregard for standards required by human beings) They no longer practice procedures they are ordered to, such as not constuing to deny or disparage others).The Patriot Act is an example of abrogation of the law. And the truth may be found...as " The Commitee of 300", did so..to gain power by controlling a majority of the worlds money.

The correct medial remedy for all this is to quit work...stop paying taxes...barter. It's the only way they will ever stop inslaving us.

Sad...the result of all this...they inslave their own Mother.

[Oleg Bach]

Not being overly programmed other than by myself though my own choice to a great degree, I hold to the idea that institutionalization is the down fall of economies and of human social evolution. Once you institute something as hard unmovable and un-evolvable fact - everything stops - and developement ceases. For instance to me what real and true religion is - is on going learning and changing - eternally without end..Humanity likes to pigeon hole everything to give itself a sense of security - Acedemics are the most stupified yet the most respected people in society - Once they graduate the believe that they now have all the answers and they institute that ego in stone - but - the world continues to change and they are constantly left behind...not being able to keep up and deal with the real problems - so they debate..pour water from one glass to the next and back again - with not one sip taken to sustain and guarentee continued life. So a constant dieing takes place and living becomes a struggle.

[gradkiss]

You should witness what is going on here in Los Angeles County...seems they farm out these programs(Lawenforcement)

A recent slogan( I call a slow gain) is "Final Death". They are what you call, mentally ill. And would be better off digging hooles, or breaking up rock somewhere. They have never accomplished one thing...Nothing I call an accomplishment, or we would be livuing in a place that was Virtuous, and Good.

Too late for them it looks like, to wake up...and realize...we are humans...and Nature dictates we not be punished. Our embodied laws are not reversible. Government wants something that is not human...and like you...I program myself...well in some respect, due to the fact that we are liken a sponge...and the causals and effectuals we encounter become the person we are today, or tomorrow.

Clearly I see, as I look upon 56 years living among these men, that have...at every chance...torn down a government that was once seen righteous. Not anymore...as when you remove the signitures of someone that is a founder of a country...to gain things desparaging or denying those things that are certain...then they have no more Country anymore. You can not dig up a dead person and force him to resign something he would not sign today.

Many people here within the borders of the United States...realize the concequences of taking this stand and are willing to ride out this bunch in Washington...that are refuted...and are liken the KKK more than anything. They employ, these 100,00 dollar men you know...as policemen...Congress was told...the additional men given this 100,00 dollars were to boost the numbers in the military...

Instead...they complained they needed 1,000s more police...complained about drugs, gangs, crime, just anything...when the only thing they had to do, was to remove that stupid thing, called a dollar. I will never believe one of them untill they do something beleiveable...you knopw accomplish somethi ng. gradkiss

[Cuzzin E]

No matter what you call it, when government has to prop up business it is no longer capitalism. The death of capitalism is at hand.

+1

Funny thing about Americans, they don't mind the government taking a page out of Socialism to buy out every mismanaged company in the US (ensuring the have's continue to have) but there would be riots in the streets if the US gov't nationalized all of these companies since that would be communist

[Oleg Bach]

+1

Funny thing about Americans, they don't mind the government taking a page out of Socialism to buy out every mismanaged company in the US (ensuring the have's continue to have) but there would be riots in the streets if the US gov't nationalized all of these companies since that would be communist

That's what I see here in Canada - the liberals do the politically correct inforcement of social policy that ensures that old school conservatives maintain their high and wealthy position..while the NDP are just delluded Trotskyites who are so out of date and will never truely understand our system - There is a class of people who are neither left or right - not real capitalist nor are they socialist - they just control the money. This is the reaL governement.

[bush_cheney2004]

Funny thing about Americans, they don't mind the government taking a page out of Socialism to buy out every mismanaged company in the US (ensuring the have's continue to have) but there would be riots in the streets if the US gov't nationalized all of these companies since that would be communist

Nah, we would just call them "Crown Corporations".

[guyser]

Nah, we would just call them "Crown Corporations".

Is that what you call them?

[bush_cheney2004]

Is that what you call them?

Yes.....got a problem with that? Years ago, Penn Central became AmTrak, a "Crown Corporation"

[tango]

This was all written by Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged.

The incapable are now in charge and are being subsidized by the mass` for their their incompetence and entitlement ,yet they call themselves the brightest. The same executives who have failed. The same goes with our seniour civil servants.

I agree. Now it is only about protecting the status quo ... 'the growth imperative', and all systems are focused on making sure that doesn't change.

War ,and I mean real global war just maybe the terrible consequences and the cure for our sick system.

Don't agree there. That's the old way. Pump up the old growth economy with munitions, kill off, mangle and destroy the minds of thousands of productive young men (with no jobs) ... balances out the economy, ya know!

Screw that. That's the knee-jerk 'apocalypse' response of "the incapable" who are 'in charge', and don't have a friggen clue (or care) what to do with humankind (except to use them as fodder) - They only know how to make money, and will continue to drag us down that spiral to a glorious suicide ... or whatever you call it when the human race follows the money right off the cliff.

Time for a new idea.

Preferably one that we can get to from where we are.

I'm warming to the idea of getting rid of money, and it's not such a big step, now that it all just exists on computers anyway, pretty much.

I also think wealth ('worth'?) needs to be distributed more equitably.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/629185b2-3bf1-40...ribution-Canada

Just off the top of my head, if we take $200 thousand off the top group, take them down to $1m, then everyone can have at least $50 thousand.

Poverty ... poof!

Makes sense to me!

Edited March 19, 2009 by tango

[charter.rights]

I agree. Now it is only about protecting the status quo ... 'the growth imperative', and all systems are focused on making sure that doesn't change.

Don't agree there. That's the old way. Pump up the old growth economy with munitions, kill off, mangle and destroy the minds of thousands of productive young men (with no jobs) ... balances out the economy, ya know!

Screw that. That's the knee-jerk 'apocalypse' response of "the incapable" who are 'in charge', and don't have a friggen clue (or care) what to do with humankind (except to use them as fodder) - They only know how to make money, and will continue to drag us down that spiral to a glorious suicide ... or whatever you call it when the human race follows the money right off the cliff.

Time for a new idea.

Preferably one that we can get to from where we are.

I'm warming to the idea of getting rid of money, and it's not such a big step, now that it all just exists on computers anyway, pretty much.

I also think wealth ('worth'?) needs to be distributed more equitably.

http://www.esnips.com/doc/629185b2-3bf1-40...ribution-Canada

Just off the top of my head, if we take $200 thousand off the top group, take them down to $1m, then everyone can have at least $50 thousand.

Poverty ... poof!

Makes sense to me!

Getting rid of money won't help if its is driven by government. Then they'll just tax our souls....perhaps feed the sick and old people into government furnaces to heat the Parliament Buildings....

Rebellion is a grass roots exercise and would represent the path we need to take against taxpayers not propping up business, as well as institutional spending. The return to a barter system is certainly a grass roots movement and so is the underground economy. However, in order for it to become universal we would have to have everyone stand up against the tyranny of government...which is what we could call the present bailouts, since the government is really borrowing and giving handouts of our present tax base and our future tax burden. Yet people believe the government when they say that the bailouts are protecting citizens. They are really just protecting the top-end investors. Does anyone actually believe that it the economy collapsed that there would not be a need for production of food, clothing, furniture, and other essential goods and services? These are grass root industries that would easily be revived once the foreign goods and major companies have sunk into the ground.

Getting rid of money just means that in a capitalist system we would have to authorize government to steal directly from the bank, or from our paychecks without any recourse.

[moderateamericain]

Getting rid of money won't help if its is driven by government. Then they'll just tax our souls....perhaps feed the sick and old people into government furnaces to heat the Parliament Buildings....

Rebellion is a grass roots exercise and would represent the path we need to take against taxpayers not propping up business, as well as institutional spending. The return to a barter system is certainly a grass roots movement and so is the underground economy. However, in order for it to become universal we would have to have everyone stand up against the tyranny of government...which is what we could call the present bailouts, since the government is really borrowing and giving handouts of our present tax base and our future tax burden. Yet people believe the government when they say that the bailouts are protecting citizens. They are really just protecting the top-end investors. Does anyone actually believe that it the economy collapsed that there would not be a need for production of food, clothing, furniture, and other essential goods and services? These are grass root industries that would easily be revived once the foreign goods and major companies have sunk into the ground.

Getting rid of money just means that in a capitalist system we would have to authorize government to steal directly from the bank, or from our paychecks without any recourse.

Whoa people? Rebellion? Barter systems? Have you all lost it? Barter systems won't work here because 90 percent of the people in this country would not have anything to barter with. Rebellion is that a joke? The last two time rebellion occured in this country thousands were killed. Obviously that's not the answer. Here is the simple truth. People need to live within there means. If you make 35,000 a year don't go buy a 500,000 dollar home. You can't afford it. The same thing goes with the government. Don't mortgage the future of America to put off payments that we owe by printing more money and borrowing with no method to pay back. And bottom line, we have to fIx the economy before anything else. Stop sending aid to countries, stop the active military operations in Iraq, finish up in Afghanistan, lower trade tariffs and barriers to export, making us products cheaper overseas, strengthen economic treaties with England, Canada, and Latin America. Wind technology to drop demand for fossil fuel, this dropping the price on oil to keep up demand. Create manufacturing jobs. Tell unions to go to hades, offer tax deductions to the super rich based on how much economic purchasing power they put into the economy. This will encourage expansion and more people working means more people spending. And lastly fund technology research devoopment that has practical application in the workplace.

[tango]

In my 'new world order' no one will make less than $50,000.

We'll take it off the top 10%, who won't even notice it's gone, and get rid of poverty entirely.

It will also get us out of these economic difficulties. Think of all those consumers with new money to spend on necessities of life.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=402548

I think wealth ('worth'?) needs to be distributed more equitably.

Wealth distribution - Canada

Just off the top of my head, if we take $200 thousand off the top group, take them down to $1m, then everyone can have at least $50 thousand.

Poverty ... poof!

Makes sense to me!

Edited March 23, 2009 by tango

[moderateamericain]

In my 'new world order' no one will make less than $50,000.

We'll take it off the top 10%, who won't even notice it's gone, and get rid of poverty entirely.

It will also get us out of these economic difficulties. Think of all those consumers with new money to spend on necessities of life.

http://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums//index....st&p=402548

I think wealth ('worth'?) needs to be distributed more equitably.

Wealth distribution - Canada

Just off the top of my head, if we take $200 thousand off the top group, take them down to $1m, then everyone can have at least $50 thousand.

Poverty ... poof!

Makes sense to me!

It will not work. Give a man a fish he will eat for a day. Teach him to fish and he will eat for a lifetime. Handouts won't stop homelessness. They got homeless through choices voluntary or involuntary. You can't restore someones pride by giving them a bag of money.

[charter.rights]

Right and people think rich people all work for their money.... MOst of them are fishing the marketplace and then demanding fisk market stock when they come up empty.

Edited March 23, 2009 by charter.rights

[Muddy]

Theft of someone elses property or money is still theft. All this plan of redistribution of wealth will do is create a whole lot more poor people. Why? Because the buying power will become more expensive and investment will dry up. Good example is Cuba. They have equality. Everyone is poor.

[charter.rights]

Theft of someone elses property or money is still theft. All this plan of redistribution of wealth will do is create a whole lot more poor people. Why? Because the buying power will become more expensive and investment will dry up. Good example is Cuba. They have equality. Everyone is poor.

Do you mean "theft" as in the mortgage fraud that investors have killed the economy with? Usury IS a form of theft and reaping billions of dollars for simply writing down a name in an investment scheme is no different than the frauds that have occurred in the mortgage bond market.

[moderateamericain]

Right and people think rich people all work for their money.... MOst of them are fishing the marketplace and then demanding fisk market stock when they come up empty.

Maybe they do or maybe they dont, But I tell you what they dont do. Put themselves in a position to end up homeless. Honestly Charter, a Sly, cool, sarcastic response is not a talking point. Not that Im above tossing out a few one liners myself.

Edited March 23, 2009 by moderateamericain

[Muddy]

Do you mean "theft" as in the mortgage fraud that investors have killed the economy with? Usury IS a form of theft and reaping billions of dollars for simply writing down a name in an investment scheme is no different than the frauds that have occurred in the mortgage bond market.

No matter if you steal from a wealthy person ,middle class or poor person , theft is wrong. Not all rich people are criminals ,as all poor people are not honest and decent, fortunately most are. Being rich or poor does not give one licence to steal..