129,000 jobs lost in January

jdobbin · February 6, 2009

Funny that the non-unioniszed jobs in Ontario seem to be fairing better

What are the stats on that? I can't find it in the link.

madmax · February 6, 2009

Funny that the non-unioniszed jobs in Ontario seem to be fairing better

Funny you are making it up or speculating.

Unionization rates in Ontario in the private sector, are nothing like in Alberta where the rate of unionization is 30% plus.

Just because the Unions are making noise about the job losses, doesn't mean they are suffering more. Infact, they are bleeding less then the Non Union job losses. The reason that they scream loudly is because with each layoff or closure is a loss of dues paying members. So they need to shout.

Of the latest announcements in my riding... 5 major retail stores closed, NONE were unionized. Of the 11 Plant closures announced since last September, 1 is unionized 85 people, the operation recorded a profit and the decision to close was made over 2 years ago and the CHinese plant was completed 8 months ago. Another plant declared Bankruptcy, it was non Unionized with 85 Workers as well. Another operation producing windows for homes closed with 36 people, bankruptcy, non unionized. 2 Auto related operations have announced their closure at the end of the month. They are also non unionized, both are profitable and are recent American Purchases, with the decision to consolidate operations. 1 gardening products manufacturer will be downsizing in 3 stages. Eliminating 1000 jobs, phase one comes in April. THis operation was purchased by an American Firm In March of 09.

I am just going through this list.... and there is only one of 11 unionized. I haven't even got into the downsizing layoffs of operations trying to survive. Oh, And I keep forgeting, sorry, 12 plants another with 800 workers has closed laying off all personel (It may reopen ....) also not unionized.

Of the near 1800 layoffs, 85 are unionized, and I believe not included in this figure are the 300 non unionized people who lost their retail jobs. That is just under the 6% unionization rate around us.

After you lose your job, it doesn't matter if you are unionized or not, you are unemployed. Many of the non unionized layoffs have no pensions, benefits or big wages, so there EI isn't all that great either.

Jobs, thousands of jobs paying less then $12/hour are being lost for good. Now, how loud do people yell when they lose their $12 or less job??? People who make more money yell the loudest....

Most of these operations have Temporary Agencies suppling the labour force on a permanent basis. These agencies have replaced Unions in the factories. Last year, quite a number of New Operations, less then 7 years old, closed down, none were unionized.

If unorganized labour could voice what is happening to them.... well, they wouldn't be unorganized.

There are still many jewels around me. Profitable operations, and so far, not affected by boardroom decisions made in another country.

Its the combination of Bankruptcies and profitable plants closings that is creating alot of extra grief in communities.

Molly · February 6, 2009

The stats don't cover the folks whose hours have been cut to way, way down-to the point of not being anything like enough, or the folks whose wages have been unilaterally cut, either.

There are lots of both.

The shot at union labour was an obvious gratuitous drive-by.

madmax · February 6, 2009

What are the stats on that? I can't find it in the link.

It is a normal assumption for people to make. If 40,000 people are laid off in one month, and you hear that 1,200 to 1,700 of them work for the CAW in the big three, people don't know about the other 38,000s background, because the CAW has grabbed the medias attention.

The government does not keep stats on the unemployment rates of Unionized and Non Unionized employees. The government keeps stats on the Unionization rates of those who are employed. It does break up public and private sector as well.

I know many times people will hear of an announced plant closure and automatically assume that they plant is unionized. In many cases they are not. In Ontario that is.

There other thing is the competition for minds in Auto. People are correct to compare the UNIONIZATION of the big three vs the Japanese. However, get passed much of the assembly and the primary production is shared between all companies from many of the same Tier 1,2, and 3 suppliers. However, that doesn't mean that a significant number of suppliers are unionized in North America. The quality of the unionized plants has historically been higher. Many of GMs parts do not come from unionized sources, but from companies that are obligated to meet the same quality standards.

Sometimes the fines alone are enough to close down an operation, but then it is too late. Regardless it is something that all manufacturers face.

For me, even though I am well informed of all the non auto related closures, it is auto that the public, media and pundits like to identify as Ontarios manufacturing sector.

To them, the other 110,000 jobs in January don't count.

Molly · February 6, 2009

Even in talking strictly auto assembly, the big cheeze around here is Honda-- non-union.

guyser · February 6, 2009

Unionization rates in Ontario in the private sector, are nothing like in Alberta where the rate of unionization is 30% plus.

Alberta has the lowest density rate, Ont is second..22.3% and 26.8% respectively.

Progressive Tory · February 7, 2009

That's my short rant for today

Rant away. It's the same here in Kingston. The malls are full of empty stores. I always buy gift cards for my family for Christmas. I told them to spend them quick before the store closes (literally).

I just read where Hudson Bay plans to lay off 1000 workers, so I imagine that will also have an impact on our local Bay.

Jerry J. Fortin · February 7, 2009

It is my hope that sooner rather than latter politicians will come to the conclusion that the accumulation of personal wealth results in lower government expenditures. When they finally arrive at that realization then there is the hope that they will begin to act upon it.

What this, as well as all other nations need to consider is that the individual must be the prime focus of legislative efforts and political policies. The advancement of the cause of improving the human condition has become the only logical avenue of political endeavor. All other efforts undertaken by governments detract from the progression of individual rights. Those rights are what humanity has sought from the beginning of recorded time and now that we have come so far in attaining them we find ourselves confronted with a problem of our own creation that we seem to have difficulty addressing. That problem is the balance between economics and politics and is based upon our consumers society and the laws of supply and demand. It is the macroeconomic models that are flawed because of their focus on credit and consumption rather than production and debt.

Our current problems are not merely economic, they are monetary and political as well. There is an ideology that we have adopted that compels us toward a decision making process based on consumption instead of production. We have accepted a global economy and a world community that denies governments the ability to protect their citizens from economic complications in favour of corporate governance. We are entering into a phase of corporatism that serves only a small percentage of the populations and yet is acquires a vast majority of the accumulated wealth.

This is not an anti business rant, it is a view that has been created over decades of observation. The loss of productive capacity in this and other first world nations and a shift in employment to third world nations has resulted in high profits for corporations at the expense of the our own working class citizens to benefit the more affluent investor class of citizens in this and other nations. Yet these citizens are indeed a minority.

It is my hope that those who would seek to lead our people will come to the conclusion that the citizens they seek to represent have the right to expect protection from their representatives. Citizens should have an expectation that their representatives will act in their best interests. All citizens deserve government services when they are in need, and the key is to create the environment where there are less needy citizens. It is in the best interests of citizens to have legislation formulated that would serve to provide the opportunity for the citizen to attain the greater personal wealth that would result in the government having to spend less providing services to the citizens in need. Governments that spend less providing services to those in need can lower levels of taxation and provide a higher level of disposable income to their citizens.

So ends my little rant.

Topaz · February 7, 2009

Friday in the Commons, one of the Lib members said they had a letter from a single mother of two, asking for some kind of help because she lost her job 9 weeks ago and applied for EI on the day she was let go. She tried and tried to get answers from EI but couldn't so she wrote to her member. Finally, Findley told the member for him to see her after Commons and she would see what she could do about help this woman. Don't these well PAID polticians know that this bill has to passed yesterday that people's lives depend on getting the help that they deserve and worked for? Why 9 weeks and still no EI for this woman? I'm sure she's not the only one but I'm wondering if the ridings that the Tories represent are getting help first?? I don't think Ottawa wants to get these people who have lost their jobs angry at them. If the government wantd to pass a bill giving themselves a raise, they do it and have done with 24 hours!

Michael Hardner · February 7, 2009

Jerry,

There is an ideology that we have adopted that compels us toward a decision making process based on consumption instead of production. We have accepted a global economy and a world community that denies governments the ability to protect their citizens from economic complications in favour of corporate governance. We are entering into a phase of corporatism that serves only a small percentage of the populations and yet is acquires a vast majority of the accumulated wealth.
This is not an anti business rant, it is a view that has been created over decades of observation. The loss of productive capacity in this and other first world nations and a shift in employment to third world nations has resulted in high profits for corporations at the expense of the our own working class citizens to benefit the more affluent investor class of citizens in this and other nations. Yet these citizens are indeed a minority.

I don't think it's clear that the working class citizens, whomever you might mean, have seen a reduction in their standard of living. I would say that earning power hasn't increased, but that consumers have more choices and cheaper imports due to trade agreements. Of course, it's very difficult to assess this.

My limited understanding of basic economics tells me that trade agreements between countries generally benefit both parties, although there are individuals on both sides who will lose. Countries and individuals tend to specialize in what they're good at, and the goods/services are thereby most efficiently overall. Canada could grow pineapples domestically, and Costa Rica could try to produce maple syrup but it wouldn't be efficient to do so. Depending on the cost of transportation, it's more efficient for each country to produce what they're good at producing, then export it.

It's hard, though, because assessing what happens economically is very complicated, and the average television or newspaper story can't do the issue justice because "stories" tend to have characters, emotions, conflict and so forth.

Certainly a lot of the problems we have seen is due to corporate stupidity, rather than larger structural problems . I would say that those who made mistakes should fail, and that the companies that rise from the ashes will do a better job - whether in manufacturing or banking. In the short term, we need to shore up our social safety net while we wait for economic growth to resume.

madmax · February 7, 2009

Even in talking strictly auto assembly, the big cheeze around here is Honda-- non-union.

Toyota surronds me in 3 Cities...

I know what you mean.

madmax · February 7, 2009

Alberta has the lowest density rate, Ont is second..22.3% and 26.8% respectively.

Thanks for calling me on this guyser. I am surprised that I didn't get 5 million FU your F)#@$*)(#ING wrong you idiot replies.

Even though I used a government source for my reply, and that was in another thread, which I cited, I was merely bringing that same stat and fact over to this thread. Sure enough, I see your numbers, do another glorious google, and your stats are backed up about 12 to 1 against mine, and probably a hell of alot higher.

READ READ READ first before you look at the stat and spout.

I have to give way to Satan once more. It wasn't even the fine print, it was just my rush to judgement.

One thing that does stand out in all Provinces is the size of Unionization within the Public Sector.

In the meantime, you choose how many lashes and I will get the noodle wet.

My apologies to those who are taking me at my word, we all make mistakes.

None of this unfortuneately changes the economic circumstances around me. But its good to get the facts right or go with the majority report.

madmax · February 7, 2009

Only 7.2%? Why are people screaming that the sky is falling?

As Ontario has been shedding 200,000 Industrial jobs each year, and this month has lost 71,000 jobs.

That is a rude awakening for any PRovince and a trend that would be devastating should these numbers continue at this rate, let alone go higher.

People said in 06, well its only 30,000 jobs this month, and 07 well its only 35,000 jobs and in 08 they said, oh it should only be 40,000 jobs except its 120,000 jobs lost.

The Economists were only wrong by 300%.

I wouldn't say the sky is falling. I would say the roof has too much snow on it, and we either get shovelling or watch it collapse.

eyeball · February 7, 2009

That's what I was expecting.

Me too, I've been angling for months now for a way out of tourism into something more recession proof. My grandmother who lived through the depression always said get a job producing food when time get tough because people still need to eat. I'm going fishing again once the weather starts improving. In the meantime firewood has been okay because people still need to stay warm too.

I'm amazed after all the years of downturns in fishing and logging where I live that I'm still making a go of it at sea from March to October and in the bush the rest of the year. Its a timeless cycle really and its good work if you can get it but there's only so much to go around now. I think the recovery to this economic downturn is going to be a very very long one myself.

As long as people still need to eat and stay warm I should be okay.

Michael Hardner · February 7, 2009

max,

As Ontario has been shedding 200,000 Industrial jobs each year, and this month has lost 71,000 jobs.

I think it's time to start finding new purposes for ourselves, and we shouldn't assume that failing businesses should be revived.

eyeball · February 7, 2009

I heard advisors on the radio this morning giving advice to the newly jobless and the potential jobless. It was uncanny - the advice they were giving out on the air was exactly the same information and instruction they give to welfare clients --- when they force them to take those stupid courses that only serve the governemental contractor giving the course - almost none benefit by this stupified council. These are shades of things to come....Welfare departments in all cities are reluctant to give the boot to career cheaque getters...because they know they are no longer the oddity - that there is a huge wave of needy on the way....It will be sweet justice when the arrogant corporate trolls are standing at the local office to bare their private and finacial lives for 570 bucks a month - say hello food bank.

Speaking of which, I expect there we'll probably see the old Forest and Fisheries Renewal programs being resurrected out here in BC. I still recall the army of consultants and contractors who were hired when these industries started going downhill around here. There are lots of experts at the business of economic downturns where I live. Heck, even I could probably get a job teaching people how to survive a downturn.

I'd like nothing better than to teach some C-suite crew how to clean a stream or plant a tree. I must have done a good job because I'm still fishing and logging.

eyeball · February 7, 2009

I think it's time to start finding new purposes for ourselves, and we shouldn't assume that failing businesses should be revived.

I predict a growing number of unemployed people will remain permanantly unemployed. I also predict the development of a Falun Gong-like movement that rejects materialism in favour of a new purpose.

I'll never forget how depressing it was to lose my old fishing boat and occupation. It was like losing a piece of myself. Getting into the renewal and restoration of the natural ecosystems that once sustained me seemed to have the effect of restoring my spirit, which at the time seemed to mirror the logged out watersheds and debris choked salmon streams I was struggling to restore. I'll never forget finding a salmon smolt that was in the process of dying - it was obviously suffocating in the water that was depleted of oxygen due to all the rotting wood debris that was in it. I thought I was looking at myself. The interconnectedness of the moment struck me in a profound way that will stay with me for the rest of my life.

I predict this new purpose for some will be to learn how to look at the world in a far more personal way. It sure made a difference in me.

Michael Hardner · February 7, 2009

eye,

I'll never forget how depressing it was to lose my old fishing boat and occupation. It was like losing a piece of myself. Getting into the renewal and restoration of the natural ecosystems that once sustained me seemed to have the effect of restoring my spirit, which at the time seemed to mirror the logged out watersheds and debris choked salmon streams I was struggling to restore. I'll never forget finding a salmon smolt that was in the process of dying - it was obviously suffocating in the water that was depleted of oxygen due to all the rotting wood debris that was in it. I thought I was looking at myself. The interconnectedness of the moment struck me in a profound way that will stay with me for the rest of my life.
I predict this new purpose for some will be to learn how to look at the world in a far more personal way. It sure made a difference in me.

Thanks for that evocative description of what happened. It's easy to forget the perspective of the individual when these large numbers are talked about. I, too, went through a crisis that was due to the economics of my chosen livelihood.

Good for you that you made it through. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, eh ?

eyeball · February 7, 2009

eye,
Thanks for that evocative description of what happened. It's easy to forget the perspective of the individual when these large numbers are talked about. I, too, went through a crisis that was due to the economics of my chosen livelihood.

Good for you that you made it through. What doesn't kill us makes us stronger, eh ?

What didn't kill me made me more skeptical of people's motives.

The worst of the crisis for me and a lot of people I know who didn't make it was the politics of our chosen livelihoods. Loggers and fishermen weren't and still aren't very well appreciated in many sectors of society. As I've said though people still need to eat and stay warm and any logger will tell you people still need paper to wipe their butts.

I'll be doing my bit for the economic recovery. Besides filling a lot of bellies, every 30,000 pounds of fish I deliver will keep 60 -70 people busy for a day.

Of course, I'll only be in it for the money so...

Oleg Bach · February 8, 2009

Every job that is lost is a job that was never really neccesary - If the person deployed and employed had a purpose - then the purpose and achivement of it would sustain the job securely ---- this is just dead wood falling away from the tree. Real jobs have been outsourced and we kept the pretend jobs - bean counting pretend money on computers - now that is coming to an end just as the car industry has - as if we need more cars - take a look around we are overloaded with machines - where on uselessly drives from one place to another to do nothing.

WIP · February 8, 2009

I believe Hamilton just posted a 25% increase in welfare applications in one month.
In the mean time, many of the LARGE announced closures haven't even begun yet. This is the prelude to the job loss.

Things look pretty bleak in Hamilton now! Heavy industry, which drove the economy of this town, has been in steady decline for years, and now there have been new rounds of layoffs and extended shutdowns at Stelco (U.S. Steel) and Dofasco (ArcelorMittal) because of the steep drop in new orders. So a city that wasn't performing that well during what we are told were the good times, looks really grim.

I should add that those of us who still have jobs are not spending our money either, because we are being told to expect more property tax increases to fill the gap in lost tax revenues.

Michael Hardner · February 8, 2009

eyeball,

What didn't kill me made me more skeptical of people's motives.
The worst of the crisis for me and a lot of people I know who didn't make it was the politics of our chosen livelihoods. Loggers and fishermen weren't and still aren't very well appreciated in many sectors of society. As I've said though people still need to eat and stay warm and any logger will tell you people still need paper to wipe their butts.

I'll be doing my bit for the economic recovery. Besides filling a lot of bellies, every 30,000 pounds of fish I deliver will keep 60 -70 people busy for a day.

Of course, I'll only be in it for the money so...

I'll agree that loggers and fishers aren't well appreciated in many sectors of society, but you are appreciated more than you think.

For one thing, government spends a lot of effort and attention on those livelihoods, as these are marquis products produced in Canada. Furthermore, these industries are part of our heritage so people do listen to what happens, and the CBC is usually there to cover the issues.

In the 1990s, my livelihood was working as a mainframe software consultant. Large companies in Canada simply exported what I do to Asia lock stock and barrel. There were thousands of high paying jobs lost, and nobody cared. I don't remember hearing any coverage of what happened, and the public was largely unaware. It wasn't because there weren't a lot of people affected, but because we had no advocates to speak for us in the media.

High tech, on the whole, was thriving we were led to believe, although the macroeconomics had changed significantly and irreversibly.

If you listened to the CBC, you would think that Canada is only made up of farmers, assembly line workers, medical workers, fishers, loggers, and teachers.

As to the specifics to your industry, and how the government screwed that up, we're discussing that on another thread.

madmax · February 8, 2009

I think it's time to start finding new purposes for ourselves, and we shouldn't assume that failing businesses should be revived.

When an operation purchases a viable and profitable operation in order to get , contracts, technology, market share or eliminate a competitor, there is a possibility and one that is very great, that the profitable operation will be terminated.

When you speak of failing businesses.... their is a domino effect when smaller Canadian Operations are aquired by larger operations and closed. If a supplier in a local region loses his customers then the supplier closes operations or downsizes.

Many of the companies that closed their operations in 2006/07 were not failing operations. But the people affected by the decision to close those operations are unemployed nonetheless.

Many of those new purposes, are well trained people with many skillsets and now with major downsizing occurring across many employment sectors, it is no surprise I see medically trained people working in a warehouse.

You can ignore the figures this month of 129,000 job losses. Don't forget that profitable companies that want to remain here, and haven't been scooped up in predatory practices, still have to downsize to meet the demand in order to stay profitable.

Mr. Hardner, to put it mildly the shit is hitting the fan.

madmax · February 8, 2009

I predict a growing number of unemployed people will remain permanantly unemployed.

I fear your prediction is going to be very very accurate, however, once they realize that the potential of them getting hired after "retraining" and them being "older" is taken into account, it is unlikely they will remain in the job market for long as many people over 55 are screened by temp agencies, and thus fall off the unemployment books, because EI runs out and they won't have made it passed the parasites. Some agencies are now screening out those above 45. Of course they never admit this

madmax · February 8, 2009

in the 1990s, my livelihood was working as a mainframe software consultant. Large companies in Canada simply exported what I do to Asia lock stock and barrel. There were thousands of high paying jobs lost, and nobody cared. I don't remember hearing any coverage of what happened, and the public was largely unaware. It wasn't because there weren't a lot of people affected, but because we had no advocates to speak for us in the media.
High tech, on the whole, was thriving we were led to believe, although the macroeconomics had changed significantly and irreversibly.

Now I get it. Michael, I am a product of that same era in the 1990s. Perhaps that is why I get really pissed when governments talk "technology".

So, I moved on from Asia Mania of the 90s, but I still felt young then . I have changed "Careers" many times. Not just "JOBS". I know what happened industrially in the 90s with NAFTA as well. The low end jobs left, lower paying and higher labour intensive where transplanted. But NOBODY, you are correct, NOBODY said BOO about those high paying jobs lost from the tech era lost in the 90s.

I now understand where you are coming from.

I can only say that, all job losses are and have been ignored by government. I choose not to keep my mouth shut, any longer, even though I am making my living off all of many of these bankruptcies and closures, what is happening is not good.

Those in BC forestry, say, hey, where were you when we hurting. Each sector barely is able to make a pitch and get heard. For those in industry, many people don't lift a finger until they are out the door. Because many people cannot understand how their profitable operations could be scheduled for closure. Other people do not recognise the fiscal peril their operations are in, or the conditions that have put the operation in that peril.

There is a reason why there was no response to the loss of high paying tech jobs.

"Why support a failing under performing sector... move on"

Been there done that.