waldo Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Well, at last a post with a civil tone! I was beginning to wonder if you are a different person using the same alias.Anyhow, allow me to reiterate. I don't live in the West. I just have had the opportunity to read some of the history and be exposed to many Western Canadian views. You don't have to convince me. The danger comes from the millions of people that live there becoming more intent on separation. I have taken note of your hyper-sensitivity - should there be an opportunity to dialogue in the future I will certainly attempt to accommodate your acuteness even accepting to your postured hypothetical `danger`, there are not millions in the West bordering on separation intent - that intent lies in the hearts and minds of a very small lunatic fringe. If you dare reference that lone much-ballyhooed Western Standard poll, I'll shred you a new one... wait, recognizing your sensitivities, I suggest if you reference that much beaten upon poll, you and I will certainly discuss further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) You asked me to cite something recent, Small C... but I don't live there any more, and can't speak to that question with 'last 6 months' kind of intimacy. I can tell you, though, that I was almighty disappointed in the feeble defenses our federal governments, both LIberal and Progressive Conservative provided, with regard to grains for export. They didn't respond to our good neighbour to the south running amok with export subsidies, accepted caps to our exports into that market, (the only one the US hadn't destroyed)-- and they were that feeble, and that willing to throw us to the wolves specifically because they used up all the ammo, and undermined their own arguments, protecting market-controlled producers over here in 'Central' Canada. I hate it that the discussion devolves into 'They're picking on us!' (usually partisan) sort of whine-fests, because that really isn't the basis. "They are neglecting us." is disgracefully true, but the fact of life part is "The good of the many outweighs the good of the few." , along with a healthy dose of "The squeaky wheel that you can hear from the cab is more likely to be attended than the one on the off back corner of the trailer." Folks who live in the shadow of the Parliament buildings can readily make their voices heard in the house, while folks living 2000 miles away are at a bit of a disadvantage. Edited February 2, 2009 by Molly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 SK and AB want nuclear power for the oil sands/prov. grid. These provinces don't have the hydro capacity that MB and BC have. It's a real pain in the ass to get a reactor up and running. Why does Ontario get to have one and not out West? say what? Bruce Power, the Alberta company fronting the initial application to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission (CNSC) pulled it's own application given raised concerns from the target Peace River area (apparently, too close to an aquifer)... the company continues to gain local consensus on a second site and when realized intends to re-submit. The CNSC had already reviewed the initial submission and was waiting on the Bruce Power to submit project descriptions. the Alberta government's described expert panel has not yet released it's long awaited report on the pros and cons of nuclear power in Alberta oh, the alienation of it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 How about lets shut off the tap and people can follow AB's example and balance their budgets on their own. much has been said about the false economies of Alberta's debt-free status - on Klein's fiscal mismanagement... admitting his government had no plan to manage the tarsands development. At a time of lower costs, when they should have been building up/back the provincial infrastructure, reducing debt was the order of the day... and now, of course, world economies have tanked and $40 a barrel oil has the Alberta government teetering on deficit. as before, a province with little diversification, beholding to a non-renewable resource and a world working to offload it's own dependencies. will a 'have' province of today - be a 'have-not' province of tomorrow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 much has been said about the false economies of Alberta's debt-free status - on Klein's fiscal mismanagement... admitting his government had no plan to manage the tarsands development. At a time of lower costs, when they should have been building up/back the provincial infrastructure, reducing debt was the order of the day... and now, of course, world economies have tanked and $40 a barrel oil has the Alberta government teetering on deficit.as before, a province with little diversification, beholding to a non-renewable resource and a world working to offload it's own dependencies. will a 'have' province of today - be a 'have-not' province of tomorrow? Alberta has no debt and no deficit. Alberta also has a giant pot of money they can dip into in times like this. $40 dollar oil is still profitable, they do still have downhole rigs there. Albertan's have the lowest taxes in Canada and one of the most business friendly tax policies on the continent. Quebec has ports, minerals, and a large amount of hydro potential, Ontario has a large amount of minerals, manufacturing, and population. Why can't those two provinces balance their books with the advantages they have? The success of Alberta is proof positive of the poison that socialism is. say what?Bruce Power, the Alberta company fronting the initial application to the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission (CNSC) pulled it's own application given raised concerns from the target Peace River area (apparently, too close to an aquifer)... the company continues to gain local consensus on a second site and when realized intends to re-submit. The CNSC had already reviewed the initial submission and was waiting on the Bruce Power to submit project descriptions. the Alberta government's described expert panel has not yet released it's long awaited report on the pros and cons of nuclear power in Alberta oh, the alienation of it all! How about lets build the damn thing already and watch the money roll in. People bitching about the environment and stimulus, and a project like this is delayed... How about having the same standards as the Ontario plants when they were built? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ontario has a large amount of minerals, manufacturing, and population. Why can't those two provinces balance their books with the advantages they have? Ontario does that quite regularly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Society has no obligation to do anything. And I disagree with that. The things that we have done in the past as a society are what has gotten us to this point...as one of the top 5 countries in the world. I see no reason why we should stop doing what we do because it disagrees with your principles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Ontario does that quite regularly. And Albertans have better paycheques and less taxes! And I disagree with that. The things that we have done in the past as a society are what has gotten us to this point...as one of the top 5 countries in the world. I see no reason why we should stop doing what we do because it disagrees with your principles. The things we have done as individuals has gotten us to one of the top 5 countries in the world, America is number one because precisely because of throwing collectivism under the bus, eg. President Reagan. Society doesn't get oil out of the ground, run business's, and cut trees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) America is number one According to what metric? Size of economy, yes (and not per capita size for sure), but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking of quality of life. Edited February 2, 2009 by Smallc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 According to what metric? Size of economy, yes (and not per capita size for sure), but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking of quality of life. Economy, projection of power, innovation, and yes a good quality of life. Everyone in the world dances to their music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Economy, projection of power, innovation, and yes a good quality of life. Expect for projection of power, and total size of economy, there is not really any other indicators that they lead. There are countries with much larger economies per person and countries with better quality of life. Oh, and even America has socialized institutions. Almost every country does. You can't survive without some type of social safety net. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Expect for projection of power, and total size of economy, there is not really any other indicators that they lead. There are countries with much larger economies per person and countries with better quality of life. Oh, and even America has socialized institutions. Almost every country does. You can't survive without some type of social safety net. And you can't survive with a great big one. Russia found that out the hard way! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 And you can't survive with a great big one. Russia found that out the hard way! Who's asking for that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blueblood Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Who's asking for that? Apparently you are. How big would you like it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 Apparently you are. How big would you like it? We have an amazing country right now. I don't want to start screwing with it. We can make tweaks here and there, but why would we mess with a good thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) We have an amazing country right now. I don't want to start screwing with it. We can make tweaks here and there, but why would we mess with a good thing? So Canada wasn't a great country in the 60's before for all of this socialist crap was started? Trudeaus social engineering has destroyed everything that the country was, we don't even really have an identity any more, ask most Canadians what it means to be Canadian and you get the same response we're not American. Before Trudeau tried to create his socialist utopia most Canadians had a better answer then we aren't American. Edited February 2, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 That 'socialist crap' is part of Canada. Its part of the identity that you obviously despise. See, its not that we don't have an identity, its that you don't like the identity. We're a country that belongs to the old world but with an address in the new one. We're a country with enormous opportunity, and a compassionate generous people who are willing to do what they can for those who need help at home and around the world. We're a country where freedom is protected by a constitution that guarantees equality for all people. We're a country with a diverse economy led by our abundant natural resources and our still very strong manufacturing sector. We're a country that is built on diversity and the idea that people of all stripes can live here and get along. Those people can take a great satisfaction in living in the country and enjoying such freedom and prosperity. We're a country built not out of war, but out of compromise...the spirit and idea of that compromise continues to this day in everything that we do. I could go on, and on, and on. This country has an identity. It's a symbol to other countries of what is possible if you simply decide to put down your arms and talk things through. I can't think of another identity that I would rather this country have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) That 'socialist crap' is part of Canada. Its part of the identity that you obviously despise. See, its not that we don't have an identity, its that you don't like the identity. We're a country that belongs to the old world but with an address in the new one. We're a country with enormous opportunity, and a compassionate generous people who are willing to do what they can for those who need help at home and around the world. We're a country where freedom is protected by a constitution that guarantees equality for all people. We're a country with a diverse economy led by our abundant natural resources and our still very strong manufacturing sector. We're a country that is built on diversity and the idea that people of all stripes can live here and get along. Those people can take a great satisfaction in living in the country and enjoying such freedom and prosperity. We're a country built not out of war, but out of compromise...the spirit and idea of that compromise continues to this day in everything that we do. I could go on, and on, and on. This country has an identity. It's a symbol to other countries of what is possible if you simply decide to put down your arms and talk things through. I can't think of another identity that I would rather this country have. If that socialist crap is part of being canadian then you have a big problem because their are vast areas of this country that don't agree or idenitify with it. As for the part about wanting to help those that need help, why is the left so adverse to being in afganistan? We are giving opporities to people that never would have had them, but you want to leave. Females their can now go to school and have rights, but if we leave they won't so you have one standard for the world but another for us. But I'm sure your happy with the status quote of the socalism, when somebody else is footing the bill for you. Edited February 2, 2009 by Alta4ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Topaz Posted February 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 If you read the endnotes that i posted #28, it does say.."under the option, the atlantic accord payments would not be clawed back, BUT the equalization program itself is less than generous than the current version." This what Nfld is complaining about their equalization do decrease and that it contradicts the provisions of the Accord of 2005. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
85RZ500 Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 (edited) Foote, Andrews, and now Simms, that makes Three. A quandry for Ignatief. Does he kick them out? Does he ignore them? Either way, he looks like a jerk. But the best part, is his condition that the budget must treat all equally. Obviuosly, NL, dosen't feel that they are being treated that way. Ignatief said he would vote the budget down if it didn't follow the rules. Edited February 2, 2009 by 85RZ500 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 We're a country that belongs to the old world but with an address in the new one. We're a country with enormous opportunity, and a compassionate generous people who are willing to do what they can for those who need help at home and around the world. We're a country where freedom is protected by a constitution that guarantees equality for all people. We're a country with a diverse economy led by our abundant natural resources and our still very strong manufacturing sector. We're a country that is built on diversity and the idea that people of all stripes can live here and get along. Those people can take a great satisfaction in living in the country and enjoying such freedom and prosperity. We're a country built not out of war, but out of compromise...the spirit and idea of that compromise continues to this day in everything that we do.I could go on, and on, and on. This country has an identity. It's a symbol to other countries of what is possible if you simply decide to put down your arms and talk things through. I can't think of another identity that I would rather this country have. a most worthy commentary - certainly, the Canadian identity/ideals are admired throughout the world Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waldo Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 much has been said about the false economies of Alberta's debt-free status - on Klein's fiscal mismanagement... admitting his government had no plan to manage the tarsands development. At a time of lower costs, when they should have been building up/back the provincial infrastructure, reducing debt was the order of the day... and now, of course, world economies have tanked and $40 a barrel oil has the Alberta government teetering on deficit.as before, a province with little diversification, beholding to a non-renewable resource and a world working to offload it's own dependencies. will a 'have' province of today - be a 'have-not' province of tomorrow? Alberta has no debt and no deficit. Alberta also has a giant pot of money they can dip into in times like this. $40 dollar oil is still profitable, they do still have downhole rigs there. Albertan's have the lowest taxes in Canada and one of the most business friendly tax policies on the continent. Quebec has ports, minerals, and a large amount of hydro potential, Ontario has a large amount of minerals, manufacturing, and population. Why can't those two provinces balance their books with the advantages they have? The success of Alberta is proof positive of the poison that socialism is. again, you ignore the false economies of the ill timed Klein debt reduction. At a time when costs were lower and manpower was available, Klein was fixated on the Alberta debt. When the boom hit, infrastructure costs skyrocketed to the point initiatives had to be deferred - and, of course, labor shortages were everywhere. those contingency and heritage funds are much criticized for their small sizes - small relative to the tremendous amount of oil revenues coming into the province, particularly at $140 barrel oil. Don't feel to smug about what you describe as that "giant pot of money": blueblood's giant pot may yet need to be tapped! by the way - do you have trouble sleeping with that socialism boogeyman under your bed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wild Bill Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 That 'socialist crap' is part of Canada. Its part of the identity that you obviously despise. See, its not that we don't have an identity, its that you don't like the identity. We're a country that belongs to the old world but with an address in the new one. We're a country with enormous opportunity, and a compassionate generous people who are willing to do what they can for those who need help at home and around the world. We're a country where freedom is protected by a constitution that guarantees equality for all people. We're a country with a diverse economy led by our abundant natural resources and our still very strong manufacturing sector. We're a country that is built on diversity and the idea that people of all stripes can live here and get along. Those people can take a great satisfaction in living in the country and enjoying such freedom and prosperity. We're a country built not out of war, but out of compromise...the spirit and idea of that compromise continues to this day in everything that we do. I could go on, and on, and on. This country has an identity. It's a symbol to other countries of what is possible if you simply decide to put down your arms and talk things through. I can't think of another identity that I would rather this country have. How do you know that your vision of a Canadian identity is shared by the majority of citizens? Have you polled them? Speaking only from personal experience, I would say that it depends on whether you follow the philosophy of John F Kennedy or Jack Layton, where JFK said "Ask not what your country can do for you but rather what you can do for your country!" and Jack (and most Liberals of the past few decades) have said " Here's what we'll give you if you vote for us!" I'm old enough to remember pre-Trudeau times and one thing I vividly recall is that before Pierre we didn't use a hyphen to describe our nationality. We were Canadians, pure and simple. Which leads to one of my favourite quotes: "Makers, takers and fakers. There are no other kinds." ---P. T. Barnum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alta4ever Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 by the way - do you have trouble sleeping with that socialism boogeyman under your bed? Any socialist boogey man who broke into my house to take my property, would be subdued by any means necessary until the policy arrived to put them jail. They won't be redistributing my wealth to pawn brokers. So I sleep very soundly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallc Posted February 2, 2009 Report Share Posted February 2, 2009 But I'm sure your happy with the status quote of the socalism, when somebody else is footing the bill for you. First, I'm not at all opposed to us being in Afghanistan. Second, I'm not opposed to socialism....in moderation....like anything else. For the part that doesn't agree with Canadian socialism...well...that's the way it is, and it's very unlikely that it will be changing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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