The Economy is going to tank, we all know that...

[jdobbin]

What I am saying is the the NDP is the for the social programs which most people need and if the Tories and the LIbs can't deliver that with this budget and future budgets, then when an elections does come all those thousands of people out of work and struggling may just vote for the NDP for the first time in their voting history! They NEED help right now and will this budget give it to them?

Canadians have shown they are opposed to deficits as well and the NDP at the federal level doesn't show any indication of how they will pay for these programs and not run massive deficits without massive taxation.

[Huston]

I'm sure Iggy will be blaming the Conservatives and their sh***y budget, but he endorsed it so that's hollow. And I'm equally sure the Cons will blame the Libs saying they had to cave to Liberal demands because of their minority situation...to spare us another election.

The Igster will pull the plug when polling indicates its best...but after that, all bets are off. Harper doesn't want his kids growing up in a Socialist country, and by bankrupting the treasury he's ensuring the government won't be able to afford any of our social programs in a few years time.

I'm looking forward to the next election, its gonna be a Liberal/Conservative blood bath...no holds barred.

The blame goes to globalization; neoliberalism

[Topaz]

Canadians have shown they are opposed to deficits as well and the NDP at the federal level doesn't show any indication of how they will pay for these programs and not run massive deficits without massive taxation.

I don't like the the deficit either. This government doesn't have much experience behind them but again I wonder if this is leading both the US and Canada to a union, like the NAU. We have to wait until the US $$ becomes worthless and more of the states say they are broke. They ARE are on their way, think the next war will be here? I want to stay Canadian, have more peace and friends around the world.

[bush_cheney2004]

I don't like the the deficit either. This government doesn't have much experience behind them but again I wonder if this is leading both the US and Canada to a union, like the NAU. We have to wait until the US $$ becomes worthless and more of the states say they are broke. They ARE are on their way, think the next war will be here? I want to stay Canadian, have more peace and friends around the world.

Too late....as obviously many Canadians already spend their time worrying about the Americans.

[jdobbin]

I do not have a crystal ball that can tell me the future of the NDP. However, historically for 70 years or more, the CCF and NDP have been at 15% to 18% and they had a 6% result when the LPC came into power under the pretense of being fiscally responsible, while under the pressure of the Reform Party. There is no Right Wing populist movement for Fiscal responsibility. Provincially the NDP have been as fiscally responsible as any other Provincal Government, be it good, bad or Ugly.

I realize what the provincial record is for the NDP. Why don't more of these NDPers run and bring that level of experience to the federal level? Instead we get a federal NDP that seems intent on raising taxes, starting large programs and running a possible a deficit.

But there is no party that is prepared to do anything but make half measures that will achieve nothing economically except guarrantee we have a large deficit to swallow for years to come.

You could always start one.

My thinking is that there seems to be no stomach for an election, coalition or the budget deficit. So what does the public really want? Perhaps they will let us know. In the meantime, expect the public to lash out at everything.

I never favoured the September election. That was a complete waste of the tax payers money for CPC arrogance. A pyrric victory. I certainly do not favour an election today, as it would likely create the same results, another minority parliment and another waste of time and money.

There's the rub. If you don't want an election, Ignatieff isn't going to give you one. As for the coalition, the Liberals saw what the strategy of the right was going to be: a National unity debate.

The coalition was not going to work with Dion at the helm. The backlash was intense. It might have worked with someone else but the issue of the Liberal leadership race was still up in the air. I don't know that an interim leader would have done any better. That would have been my preference.

The ability to form another government is the right of any party in parliment who can demonstrate that they can govern with the confidence of the house. I have no interest in denying this option that has been used on a number of occasions both provincially and federally. THere is no such option for a coalition government at present and they are rare occurence, yet I support the right for any party to form a coalition, accord or some letter of agreement. I support the right of the Liberals to support the Conservative budget, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. It is the Liberals choice to support the government and its budget.

Ignatieff didn't completely dismiss a coalition. Layton's fit of pique shows how hungry he was for power. His decision to vote against the budget came before the budget. It came as soon as the last election was completed. It was decided the minute Layton was born.

Not with Dion at the helm. He was an idiot and lacked fiscal judgement. I expected Iggy to be more fiscally prudent, and I am shocked that this is not the case. Thus, I cannot say whether or not I would support the coalition with IGGY in charge, because, I expected he might bring a degree of fiscal responsibility to it. If he were leader of a coalition and came up with this piece of shiite budget, I would not support the coalition or its budget either.

Ignatieff didn't write the budget. My guess is that he probably didn't think he could write a better budget with Layton in a coalition. I see no benefit in him voting down the budget if he could no better in a coalition.

Again, one might expect the CPC to run a balanced budget with LPC support then what they have given way too.

I think Ignatieff believes it is better to let Harper take the heat for an unbalanced budget.

My thoughts were that an IGGY lead coalition could not produce such a shitty budget. The Conservatives as opposition would return to their fiscally responsible origins and the fangs would be out if they saw a coalition present such a piece of garbage as this is.

Ignatieff could not trust Layton to be fiscally responsible.

Regardless, non of this hypothesysing is going to change anything.

The CPC and LPC are going to have to ride this budget out. And we Canadians are going to pay for it for it.

Based on the alternatives you meshed out, I don't know what the alternative would be. You seem to have faith that Layton could be trusted to support a fiscally responsible budget. I became more convinced that Layton would only support a budget with giant tax increases and social spending. I don't think it would have been balanced.

HUH???

That is the line the NDP is running with again.

[Oleg Bach]

So what if it tanks! For the last ten years I have been the canary in the gold mine. I with the help of the federals was rendered a pauper due to draconian taxing policies. They started to guarneshe 100% of my cheques...so I decided "no income - no income tax" and to hell with the state..I felt like an experiment in progress - It was as if they used me to see how a fairly intelligent man could survive - on next to nothing - and possibly use me as a bench mark to see how far the population could be pushed down wards... and Yes - I managed - I have maintained a good and decent address - I manage continue with my asspirations and dreams --- I smoke and eat well most of the time - BUT the average person is not as shrewd or creative as I....You see people in the states committing suicide over money...any person that would do this is not fit to continue in the white light of day --- .... You must adapt and not let the bad guys win --- This ecomomic fix we are in - is just more greed peaking --- greed is a mental illness and the powers that be are crazy - realize this and be brave. Crazy people are harmless - instead of them managing you - you manage them --- It is the righteous slave in the household that rules the corrupt master.

[gordiecanuk]

So does this mean the NDP support will skyrocket since they oppose it?

There's an old saw in horse racing that goes:

When the odds are split between the favourites...bet on the longshot.

Back when Bob Rae shocked everyone (including himself) and wound up as Ontario's premier we were just at the start of a recession that was dubbed, 'the worst since the depression'. He tried to spend his way out of it at the start, and was crucified 5 years later at the polls.

Now everyone is saying we have to spend our way out of it...Was Bob Rae right all those years ago? The economy did after all emerge into a period of near unprecedented growth.

Maybe the NDP could shock us once again?

[Oleg Bach]

There's an old saw in horse racing that goes:

When the odds are split between the favourites...bet on the longshot.

Back when Bob Rae shocked everyone (including himself) and wound up as Ontario's premier we were just at the start of a recession that was dubbed, 'the worst since the depression'. He tried to spend his way out of it at the start, and was crucified 5 years later at the polls.

Now everyone is saying we have to spend our way out of it...Was Bob Rae right all those years ago? The economy did after all emerge into a period of near unprecedented growth.

Maybe the NDP could shock us once again?

Even capitalist under duress will dawn the socialist cloak when in a weakend state. Sure they will butter up to the NDP if thinks persist economically - one problem for the ones at the top in need....guys like Layton are so stupid that they believe that all of the rich are bad and should be punished.. There was an old Russian guy I knew who was a professional forger during the war...He said one thing about the soviets.."They punished those that were bright and worked hard" The NDP if given the opportunity must control their spite...a little socialism at the right time is useful - but not for ever.

[Huston]

Even capitalist under duress will dawn the socialist cloak when in a weakend state.

Of course, because capitalism and socialism are not important in this example. That is, is leeches. It is all Ayn Rand.

[madmax]

What I am saying is the the NDP is the for the social programs which most people need and if the Tories and the LIbs can't deliver that with this budget and future budgets, then when an elections does come all those thousands of people out of work and struggling may just vote for the NDP for the first time in their voting history! They NEED help right now and will this budget give it to them?

It's Ok Topaz. I actually did understand you the first time, but I can say it wasn't crystal clear and it left for alot of reading between the lines and assumptions.

I have no reason to believe that any changes are coming to EI. And there is an element of possibility that many people affected negatively by the economy may vote NDP if..... nothing changes. I don't expect changes to EI or the Economy. I expect more people to be on EI before the year is done and more operations to continue with their relocations if they have the capital to do so. People do not vote like they used to. Protest votes are not that strong unless there is a local issue at stake, and many people just don't vote. So, I tend to agree with Jdobbin that I cannot see the NDP growing its vote beyond its tradition levels within a 5% margin.

I can see the CPC being punished in Ontario, as hundreds of thousands of people who have never collected EI now do so for the first time. Dianne Finley has a heart of stone and the compassion of a pile of rocks. She happened to get lucky in Caledonia with A large protest vote going to an independent, or she would have been toast, for hiding from the people in her riding. I expect to her to perform in a similar manner with EI. She has come out the gate essentially suggesting that people on EI are lazy and need to get a job, because the government has "no intention of paying people to stay home".

SHe is entitled to her opinion, but there could be some political backlash across the Province, although I expect she will remain safe.

However, Much like the CPC reduced GST, (they were the ones that punished us with this tax grab in the first place) the LPC will come out for increased EI benefits when they choose to pull the plug. It was the LPC that made all the cuts to EI and it will be the LPC that puts them back, especially if they see political capital in it.

I see EI reform as a top issue for 2009/10.

I don't see any kind of Federal Bob Rae bounce or freak accident as happened in Ontario for the federal NDP. Any seats they get they will have to earn as people in Ontario have remained skeptical of the NDP ever since Bob Rae ran large deficits. And you need to have Ontario if you want to find your way to official opposition or government, and 70 years suggest that the NDP will remain as it always has been.

I expect the NDP to champion causes such as EI reform, and once politically popular, for the LPC to campaign on them.

Edited February 2, 2009 by madmax

[madmax]

The blame goes to globalization; neoliberalism

Growing pains and little greed.

[madmax]

My thinking is that there seems to be no stomach for an election, coalition or the budget deficit. So what does the public really want? Perhaps they will let us know. In the meantime, expect the public to lash out at everything.

If you read the polls, the polls suggest many contradictory opinions but don't explain it to the public. The last poll suggested.... and I know not why the change..... the publc supported the coalition by a majority, but didn't want the coalition to govern and preferred an election instead. The public also did not want an election.

It is the reason we have government and not people making decisions by a referendum on every decision.

As I am not part of government I can criticise it and praise it without responsibility for actions. However, I value my opinion as much as I value yours.

HUH?

That is the line the NDP is running with again