The Anti-Immigration Sentiment

[Jean_Poutine]

"I am a Canadian, free to speak without fear, free to worship in my own way, free to stand for what I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, or free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind." -- John Diefenbaker

I'll say what I think, and stand for what I think right, and I really don't give a damn about people that say that I can't.

As for immigration, I saw a show on PBS about the recovery of the Grizzly bear population in which one man said, "It's easy to be for Grizzly recovery when you live in Fort Lauderdale, but when the Grizzly is on your porch, it's a challenge." I think that line can be applied to a lot of arguments that people make. It's easy to be for something when it doesn't effect you directly.

If you live out in a rural area, immigration doesn't really effect you, but if you live in a city where the population has increased by 25% or more in 5 years, it's a different story. It's a different story when most of the new comers barely speak english. It's a different story when infrastructure doesn't keep up with the population growth. It's a different story when you have people on the road that don't seem to know what traffic laws are.

It's also a different story when they bring beliefs that aren't compatible with life in Canada. Take for example Shariah law. In countries that use Shariah law, women can be stoned to death for having the audacity to want to choose their own husband. I once watched a documentary in which a Muslim man defended the record on womens rights in the Muslim world by saying that they treat them better than we do. He argued that in the west, we dress women like whores. I thought, this epitomized the problem. In the west, women are free to live their lives as they choose -- regardless of whether or not someone else disagrees with it. If a woman chooses to dress in a way he does not approve of, it's HER choice NOT someone elses.

So does this mean that we should not accept immigrants from such countries? We cannot generalize of course. When Muslims pushed for Shariah law in Ontario, some of the most vocal critics that spoke against it were women that moved here from Iran to get away from it. We should welcome those people, but at the same time we should also be cautious about those that seek to export such problems to Canada, and herein lies the problem. How does the board of immigration determine what a person's intent is? Do they believe that their religion trumps our laws? Do they have the same respect for an individuals rights that we do? The answers to such questions are fundamental if you want to know whether or not an individual will fit into our society.

With regards to the argument that we need immigrants to fix a shortage of skilled workers, I'm not convinced. Why is it that as soon as there's a problem, some neglect to look closer to home for the solution first? While there is a shortage of skilled workers in some areas, there's also a growing number of unemployed in this country already. Why not train them to do the sort of work for which there is a shortage and kill two birds with one stone?

Likewise with the argument that we need immigrants for population growth. Anyone stop to ask themselves why population growth is so low? The US doesn't have the same problem with population growth. Why is that? Could it be that taxes, cost of living, etc makes it harder to raise a family? Shouldn't the first step towards fixing a problem be to determine what the cause is?

[Argus]

We are under populated . Just because one doesnt want to live in H Bay means little for your argument.

I understand your shock. Imagine him bringing common sense into a discussion about immigration!

The moment you petition for your pet projects, I will be right behind you to do the same. Immigrants pay taxes too you know, although perhaps not enough to cover all , they will in time en masse.

And Guyser knows this because er well, he's got a feeeeling you know.

[Argus]

If that was true, there wouldn't be anti-immigrant postings here. Centre and left Canadians don't do that and don't tolerate it.

What drool. Won't tolerate? What are you going to do, firebomb the server if someone say something unflattering about immigraton?

[Guest icbones]

We are under populated . Just because one doesn't want to live in H Bay means little for your argument.

What is the basis for your argument that Canada is under populated? I for one do not want any more traffic or the explosion of subdivisions going up everywhere.

The moment you petition for your pet projects, I will be right behind you to do the same. Immigrants pay taxes too you know, although perhaps not enough to cover all , they will in time en masse.

How do you know this? With the current economic down turn how many immigrants will lose their jobs and go on EI? What about the immigrants that are ill and a constant user of healthcare? Do you think they will be in an income bracket that will pay for what they use? And what are your pet projects anyway?

you might have kids, please send me the money I pay for your kids education.Thanks !

I don't have kids, but I agree with your that I should not be paying an education levy to send other people's kids to school, especially the kids of immigrants.

For what purpose?

The reason every person applying to this country as an immigrant should have to pay for a complete pre-admission medical check-up and genetic work up, is to weed out people that will be heavy users of public healthcare. Finger printing and a retinal eye scan and criminal back ground check is to eliminate criminals and people previously deported.

That is pretty much what they already do . That the govt of the day doesn't enforce it is not anyones fault but the govts.

So then you agree with me that anyone sponsoring someone for admission to Canada should have to sign a bond that they will pay for all legal and medical expenses that the person they sponsor accumulates. Where you are wrong is that everyone coming to Canada does get legal aid, subsidized shelter, and ESL classes for free, or I should say at no costs to themselves.

[guyser]

What is the basis for your argument that Canada is under populated?

The same one you used for stating that we are not under populated.

I for one do not want any more traffic or the explosion of subdivisions going up everywhere.

That is all well and fine as a persoinal opinion. But to link the subdivisions with immigration is not something that should occur.

With the current economic down turn how many immigrants will lose their jobs and go on EI?

Dont know exactly. But I would bet more Canucks are on EI than immigrants. Further, a person here for four years working hard at his job is now a problem over the 21 yr old CDN kid who is laid off or let go after 8 months work?

What about the immigrants that are ill and a constant user of healthcare? Do you think they will be in an income bracket that will pay for what they use?

And we should do what with people who legally immigrated here , held job(s) but then came down with some sudden sickness?

As to that second part, plenty of homegrowns (IMO a majority) are not in an income bracket that will pay for what they use , but apparently they get off scot free. Why is that?

And what are your pet projects anyway?

1) reduce, significantly , the bloated civil service in this country. According to our resident angry civil service member, every single one of them works hard and produces results, well, except for the brown one in the office and of course the other smelly immigrant workers in that office. The whites, well they work really extra double hard.

2)Fix the roads, 3)mantain natural outdoor rinks all over the place. Hookers and blow would be nice, but I doubt that will come to fruition , so lets stick with the first 3 parts.

I don't have kids, but I agree with your that I should not be paying an education levy to send other people's kids to school, especially the kids of immigrants.

Well , I cant agree there. Socities benefit greatly from an educated populace. I am more than fine paying edu levees for this . What I might like is a break on the cottage edu levy. Once, absolutely, twice I can do without.

The reason every person applying to this country as an immigrant should have to pay for a complete pre-admission medical check-up and genetic work up, is to weed out people that will be heavy users of public healthcare.

Why stop there? Why not do that to people born here, or better yet before they are born.That way we could stop plenty of illnesses reaching our helathcare system.

Finger printing and a retinal eye scan and criminal back ground check is to eliminate criminals and people previously deported.

If they are criminals already it is my understanding they dont qualify except in certain cases. People previously deported arent offering up legit documents to get in , so a scan doesnt work, unless everyone is scanned, and frankly our borders are slow enough as it is.

So then you agree with me that anyone sponsoring someone for admission to Canada should have to sign a bond that they will pay for all legal and medical expenses that the person they sponsor accumulates.

Its not that I agree with you, it is the law. A sponsor signs on to provide housing,medical food and transport.

Where you are wrong is that everyone coming to Canada does get legal aid, subsidized shelter, and ESL classes for free, or I should say at no costs to themselves.

Not true.

That most can qualify is not the same as "everyone does".

Edited January 21, 2009 by guyser

[Guest icbones]

The same one you used for stating that we are not under populated.

That is all well and fine as a persoinal opinion. But to link the subdivisions with immigration is not something that should occur.

Dont know exactly. But I would bet more Canucks are on EI than immigrants. Further, a person here for four years working hard at his job is now a problem over the 21 yr old CDN kid who is laid off or let go after 8 months work?

And we should do what with people who legally immigrated here , held job(s) but then came down with some sudden sickness?

As to that second part, plenty of homegrowns (IMO a majority) are not in an income bracket that will pay for what they use , but apparently they get off scot free. Why is that?

1) reduce, significantly , the bloated civil service in this country. According to our resident angry civil service member, every single one of them works hard and produces results, well, except for the brown one in the office and of course the other smelly immigrant workers in that office. The whites, well they work really extra double hard.

2)Fix the roads, 3)mantain natural outdoor rinks all over the place. Hookers and blow would be nice, but I doubt that will come to fruition , so lets stick with the first 3 parts.

Well , I cant agree there. Socities benefit greatly from an educated populace. I am more than fine paying edu levees for this . What I might like is a break on the cottage edu levy. Once, absolutely, twice I can do without.

Why stop there? Why not do that to people born here, or better yet before they are born.That way we could stop plenty of illnesses reaching our healthcare system.

If they are criminals already it is my understanding they don't qualify except in certain cases. People previously deported aren't offering up legit documents to get in , so a scan doesnt work, unless everyone is scanned, and frankly our borders are slow enough as it is.

Its not that I agree with you, it is the law. A sponsor signs on to provide housing,medical food and transport.

Not true.

That most can qualify is not the same as "everyone does".

Your kidding, right

First of all, I am linking immigration (or more accurately, over immigration) with subdivisions sprouting every where. Even the Toronto Star admits that white flight is real. Only it is called "rapid replacement" by the politcally correct. Regarding your EI argument, the scenario about the hard working immigrant laid off would not occur if the federal government set immigration levels according to job availability and not vote buying. This is the whole point of this thread that you don't seem to get. People are not against immigrants that are a use and value to Canada. People are complaining about the number of immigrants that are allowed in that don't speak english, fill our hospitals, commit crime, or are un-employable because they have multiple anchor babies by different fathers and are on mothers allowance.

As for your wish list of pet projects (fixing roads), maybe if we did not squander billions of dollars on ESL, court time for all the immigrants and refugees fighting deportation orders and other criminal charges, welfare etc, we would be driving on better roads. As for your desire to have natural rinks, hookers and blow, well at least your have a healthy sense of humour .

Some of your other comments regarding genetic work ups on the unborn should be in a thread about eugenics, not immigration. I work in health care and the system of public healthcare was designed so that the majority of people would pay into it for many years before they required it'd services. To make it short, since this is worthy of a new topic, ~40 years ago when PHC was created there wern't as many tests, procedures, and treatments available. Immigration levels were not as high and family reunifacation was not popular, (elderly people) parents and grand parents coming to canada have many pre-excisting medical problems besides advanced age. Now, we have too many people immigrating here for our social services.

Lastly, the whole idea of finger printing and retinal eye scanning of all immigrants to Canada is because of false documents being used.

[trooper]

Your kidding, right

First of all, I am linking immigration (or more accurately, over immigration) with subdivisions sprouting every where. Even the Toronto Star admits that white flight is real. Only it is called "rapid replacement" by the politcally correct. Regarding your EI argument, the scenario about the hard working immigrant laid off would not occur if the federal government set immigration levels according to job availability and not vote buying. This is the whole point of this thread that you don't seem to get. People are not against immigrants that are a use and value to Canada. People are complaining about the number of immigrants that are allowed in that don't speak english, fill our hospitals, commit crime, or are un-employable because they have multiple anchor babies by different fathers and are on mothers allowance.

As for your wish list of pet projects (fixing roads), maybe if we did not squander billions of dollars on ESL, court time for all the immigrants and refugees fighting deportation orders and other criminal charges, welfare etc, we would be driving on better roads. As for your desire to have natural rinks, hookers and blow, well at least your have a healthy sense of humour .

Some of your other comments regarding genetic work ups on the unborn should be in a thread about eugenics, not immigration. I work in health care and the system of public healthcare was designed so that the majority of people would pay into it for many years before they required it'd services. To make it short, since this is worthy of a new topic, ~40 years ago when PHC was created there wern't as many tests, procedures, and treatments available. Immigration levels were not as high and family reunifacation was not popular, (elderly people) parents and grand parents coming to canada have many pre-excisting medical problems besides advanced age. Now, we have too many people immigrating here for our social services.

Lastly, the whole idea of finger printing and retinal eye scanning of all immigrants to Canada is because of false documents being used.

So you hate the immigrants for something the politicians should be faulted for?

There was a recent statistic that said only 7% of people on welfare are immigrants. That means 93% are canadian born folks are a burden to the system. Why not just get them to work or deport them. Oh wait, they are lazy and will not work and love the welfare cheques they receive.

Your retinal eye scan and medical checkup is a great point and it's already being done. Every immigrant (including sponsors) have an extremely difficult time sponsoring their parents if they are above 50 with a precondition.

I hate it when people like you portray the idiotic belief which has already been discredited numerous times by reputable sources (including a huge debate on this forum) that "times were great then, and we are in deep shit now due to immigration or {insert excuse here}" when even the people in those times felt times weren't great.

Also, regarding the burden in the health care system. I highly doubt you work in health care or in a position where you need to research facts. Well Genius, the system is broken due to the Baby Boomer population that has come to aging. The younger generation just cannot sustain this huge population of boomers. It has nothing to do with immigration like you conveniently blame on.

Also, I have repeatedly said the immigration system is broken and needs fixing. It's the Canadian government that promises these folks by instituting a point-system that's useless. For every example you show off an immigrant who's a burden to the system, I'll show you 10 examples of people who had tremendous experience and were lured into Canada to work minimum-wage crappy jobs and drive cabs (that's the luxurious jobs to these doctors and engineers) who I might add are readily getting jobs in the US. Some immigrants are getting their citizenship and leaving the country to the US for better opportunities. Serves the thankless nation right when people like you make their already difficult time here worse.

People like you think that getting a $1,300/month welfare cheque is a luxurious income that gets these people ferraris and big screen TV's on the whim when life is pathetic, oh and in recent times that income has VASTLY decreased. But that's besides the points.

It's pathetic that you blame the fact that the roads aren't fixed on immigration. It's the government's stupid mismanagement of funds that's causing the roads not getting fixed. You then blame the 'bad drivers' on immigration as if immigrants get a free ride when getting their licenses or from the police. Oh, also, there is a recent statistic that after the baby boomer generation, the Canada will not sustain itself at the current birthrate and so immigration is required, oh wait the low birth-rates should be blamed on the immigrants as well!

Edited January 22, 2009 by trooper

[Guest icbones]

So you hate the immigrants for something the politicians should be faulted for?

Slow down there sport. I wasn't directing that statement towards anything you said, I was replying to guyser. You might also tell me where you get the idea I hate immigrants. Next time read more slowly so you comprehend what is being said. Can you handle that?

There was a recent statistic that said only 7% of people on welfare are immigrants. That means 93% are canadian born folks are a burden to the system. Why not just get them to work or deport them. Oh wait, they are lazy and will not work and love the welfare cheques they receive.

State you source since it was so recent. PM if you want. BTW how do you deport some one born here?

Your retinal eye scan and medical checkup is a great point and it's already being done. Every immigrant (including sponsors) have an extremely difficult time sponsoring their parents if they are above 50 with a precondition.

I don't care if sponsors will have a hard time honouring their commitments. Read this link.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007...sor-070501.html

Unlike you I will supply hard examples to support my position.

I hate it when people like you portray the idiotic belief which has already been discredited numerous times by reputable sources (including a huge debate on this forum) that "times were great then, and we are in deep shit now due to immigration or {insert excuse here}" when even the people in those times felt times weren't great.

Are you on crack? When did I say times where great then and shit now due to immigration?

Also, regarding the burden in the health care system. I highly doubt you work in health care or in a position where you need to research facts. Well Genius, the system is broken due to the Baby Boomer population that has come to aging. The younger generation just cannot sustain this huge population of boomers. It has nothing to do with immigration like you conveniently blame on.

Well genius, I do work in healthcare, and I have observed a great increase in the number of people that do not have basic (any) English skills. And ask the RCMP if the younger generation will be able to sustain the cost of crime committed by immigrants. That is why the RCMP has an Immigration Task Force. See link below.

http://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/on/prog_serv/fed...v/i&p_e.htm

Immigration Task Force

The Immigration Task Force (ITF) was formed in June 1994 in response to the brutal homicide of Vivi Lemonis, a patron in a Toronto restaurant shot to death during a violent robbery. All four suspects were non-Canadians with serious criminal convictions in Canada and some were under deportation orders. The second catalyst was the fatal shooting of Toronto Police Service Constable Todd Baylis and the wounding of his partner Constable Mike Leone in June 1994. The suspect in this matter was also non-Canadian with a lengthy violent criminal record and was under deportation order. These events forged the formation of a partnership to locate and apprehend high-risk migrant fugitives.

Did you know...?

Since its inception the ITF has made approximately 2,500 high-risk migrant fugitive apprehensions.

Also, I have repeatedly said the immigration system is broken and needs fixing. It's the Canadian government that promises these folks by instituting a point-system that's useless. For every example you show off an immigrant who's a burden to the system, I'll show you 10 examples of people who had tremendous experience and were lured into Canada to work minimum-wage crappy jobs and drive cabs (that's the luxurious jobs to these doctors and engineers) who I might add are readily getting jobs in the US. Some immigrants are getting their citizenship and leaving the country to the US for better opportunities. Serves the thankless nation right when people like you make their already difficult time here worse.

Well then instead of your juvenile name calling call your MP with some ideas. If you behave the same way with a politician as you do on this forum I'm sure he/she will respond with a restraining order

People like you think that getting a $1,300/month welfare cheque is a luxurious income that gets these people ferraris and big screen TV's on the whim when life is pathetic, oh and in recent times that income has VASTLY decreased. But that's besides the points.

What the heck are you talking about. You need to take an anger management course. I never mentioned or implied luxury living on welfare

It's pathetic that you blame the fact that the roads aren't fixed on immigration. It's the government's stupid mismanagement of funds that's causing the roads not getting fixed. Oh, also, there is a recent statistic that after the baby boomer generation, the Canada will not sustain itself at the current birthrate and so immigration is required, oh wait the low birth-rates should be blamed on the immigrants as well!

That was a statement directed to guyser's beef about roads. You better calm down before you blow a gasket sport.

[jbg]

So you hate the immigrants for something the politicians should be faulted for?

Today, I took my almost 13 year old son on a voyage to New Jersey we will long remember.

We saw Ellis Island, the gateway through which more than 12 million immigrants poured into the U.S. between 1892 and 1924, 1,200,000 alone in one of those years, I believe 1908 or 1909. Ellis Island was not the only "gateway" but it was by far the largest. The "brain drain" that poured through Ellis Island and similar points were probably the major key to America's greatness and Europe's decline.

Before the 1890s the U.S. was but a blip on Europe's and thus (in their view) the civilized world's radar screen. The ceaseless warfare and religious persecution had the aim of controlling Europe, access to colonial resources and thus (in their view) the civilized world. Wars such as WW I and WW II were fought in that quixotic aim. Something not so funny happened on the way to the forum.

There were periods of major European emigration before, The Irish potato famine, political turmoil in Germany and famines in Scandinavia sent smaller waves to our fair shores during the late 1840's and early 1850's. What happened from 1892 on was one of the great migrations of human history. America's growing prosperity, and unprecedented political freedom and stability began to become known in Europe, with the greater spread of information. Some of that information demonstrably false, mind you, such as America's streets being paved with gold. Still, the people willing to foresake to familiarity of speking their language of birth, in many cases leave the houses and towns they were born in for a new, unfamiliar world, with a different language up and left. By and large, these were the people that a new country needed to build it; people with drive, in some cases imagination, in some cases intellect, but people willing to give rather than take, to work and work hard.

After going to Ellis Island, I took my son to dinner in the "Ironbound" section of Newark, and had the best Portugese food I've had this side of the Alentejo region of Portugal. These people are contributors to our country that give it spice and zest.

My paternal grandmother's first worlds were in either Magyar or Yiddish. Her son, my father, was a professional till his death who spoke perfect English, who built a thriving interior architecture practice from nothing. My mother's maternal grandfather was a Ukrainian refugee from the Czar's army, tired of the senseless and endless wars. I am now an acomplished attorney. Our President is the son of a Kenyan farmer. In more modern times, the better people of Asia, the Caribbean, and yes even the Muslim world come here rather than stay there.

Thus not only was this a great migration; it was a huge brain drain. It continues to this day.This is and always has been a country of immigrants.

There was a recent statistic that said only 7% of people on welfare are immigrants. That means 93% are canadian born folks are a burden to the system. Why not just get them to work or deport them.

Not a bad idea.

For every example you show off an immigrant who's a burden to the system, I'll show you 10 examples of people who had tremendous experience and were lured into Canada to work minimum-wage crappy jobs and drive cabs (that's the luxurious jobs to these doctors and engineers) who I might add are readily getting jobs in the US. Some immigrants are getting their citizenship and leaving the country to the US for better opportunities. Serves the thankless nation right when people like you make their already difficult time here worse.

As I pointed out the U.S. always gets the best people despite the number of others that make a career of denigrating the U.S.

[CANADIEN]

I don't have kids, but I agree with your that I should not be paying an education levy to send other people's kids to school, especially the kids of immigrants.

So that the children of immigrants can stay poor and uneducated?

Edited February 15, 2009 by CANADIEN

[jbg]

So that the children of immigrants can stay poor and uneducated?

CANADIEN, I agree with y ou but admittedly, with illegals, that issue is a close call.

[Guest icbones]

So that the children of immigrants can stay poor and uneducated?

Opps, My mistake on that one. I should have said especially the children of people here illegally. The Toronto district school board has a policy of don't ask, don't tell regarding the status of parents who have children in school. IMO if someone is here illegally, they are not paying taxes. As well the TDSB should not be ignoring people who are here illegally. This may be way they are having budget problems.

[Michael Hardner]

icbones,

This may be way they are having budget problems.

It may be, but ... it's not.

[Guest icbones]

I think that some people that post on this board are confusing anti-immigrant with being anti-immigrant policy. It also appears that a few on this forum think that all immigrants are a benefit to Canada. What most people that criticize our immigration policy are concerned with, is that we need to weed out the undesirables and remove them quickly without the endless and time consuming appeal process that happens now.

We must also weed out the people that just want to be holding a Canadian passport and have no intention what so ever in being Canadian. A perfect example was Canada's Lebanon evacuation exercise in 2006. Many of the people that were evacuated had not been back to Canada in many tears. When the situation calmed down in Lebanon, everyone returned. I hope that most people on this forum, whatever your opinion on immigration, would agree that Canadians of convenience are not what we are looking for when granting citizenship.

As far as the argument about doctors and engineers working in jobs that do not reflect their qualifications, you can't totally blame the government on that. Most professionals have a college or governing body that determines minimum standards required to practice their skill. These professional organizations are tasked by the government to self police themselves in an effort to provide the public with people that possess the necessary skills to carry out their jobs or profession. Does anyone want the government to force (for example) the college of Physicians and surgeons to lower standards for the purpose of increasing the number of Doctors practicing in Canada?

I'm sure this aurgument will continue.

I know that there are some people people on this forum who are condescending towards immigrants (Mr.Canada) and it sickens me.. To me, immigrants are as Canada as any other; in fact, this country was somewhat built by immigrants, so what gives? Apparently, some people think that the citizenship card doesn't really mean much anymore.. I take quite a lot of pride as a Canadian to know that we are very libertarian and friendly towards immigrants.

[Michael Hardner]

ic,

I think that some people that post on this board are confusing anti-immigrant with being anti-immigrant policy. It also appears that a few on this forum think that all immigrants are a benefit to Canada. What most people that criticize our immigration policy are concerned with, is that we need to weed out the undesirables and remove them quickly without the endless and time consuming appeal process that happens now.

We must also weed out the people that just want to be holding a Canadian passport and have no intention what so ever in being Canadian. A perfect example was Canada's Lebanon evacuation exercise in 2006. Many of the people that were evacuated had not been back to Canada in many tears. When the situation calmed down in Lebanon, everyone returned. I hope that most people on this forum, whatever your opinion on immigration, would agree that Canadians of convenience are not what we are looking for when granting citizenship.

How, exactly, are you going to frame the issue of Canadians living abroad, so that you can target the Lebanese that you dislike but without targeting Florida retirees, young Canadians teaching English abroad - and other Canadians that you like ?

It sounds like you want to set up a new tier of citizenship.

As far as the argument about doctors and engineers working in jobs that do not reflect their qualifications, you can't totally blame the government on that. Most professionals have a college or governing body that determines minimum standards required to practice their skill. These professional organizations are tasked by the government to self police themselves in an effort to provide the public with people that possess the necessary skills to carry out their jobs or profession. Does anyone want the government to force (for example) the college of Physicians and surgeons to lower standards for the purpose of increasing the number of Doctors practicing in Canada?

If there are shortages, then we need to increase the numbers somehow. Nobody wants physicians and surgeons to lower standards, but we need more GPs.

[Guest icbones]

ic,

How, exactly, are you going to frame the issue of Canadians living abroad, so that you can target the Lebanese that you dislike but without targeting Florida retirees, young Canadians teaching English abroad - and other Canadians that you like ?

MH, I never said I hated Lebanese! I used that incident as an example, that is why I said as an example. As far as the Florida example you used, does that mean that you hate Canadians living abroad? Canadians can only stay in Florida for ~180 days before they must pay American taxes. So most Canadians stay only to escape winter. That is why the term snow birds is used. In addition, do you actually think that the Canadian government would be tripping over themselves to evacuate retired Canadians if there was a natural disaster that required people to leave Florida? As an other example that Canada is selective on who it helps. Compare the fate of William Sampson that was abandoned by the Canadian government and was tortured and in prison for over a year by the Saudi government and Maher Arar, who the Canadian government spared no effort to gain the release of from Syria.

It sounds like you want to set up a new tier of citizenship.

I did not say anything like that. But I and many others do think that the practice of allowing dual citizenship must be addressed. With all the Immigrants that Canada has accepted over the years, it is not practical or possible to offer them the full range and services and protection to everyone that returns to their country of birth.

If there are shortages, then we need to increase the numbers somehow. Nobody wants physicians and surgeons to lower standards, but we need more GPs.

My point exactly, Finally we agree on something, without the mud slinging. So instead of depending on the unfair practice of recruiting (stealing) Doctors from developing countries where they are desperately needed, why not open up some more spots in universities to train people here? In fact instead of funnelling money to ESL courses why not provide financial enticements to train in areas where shortages of skills exist? Not only for Doctors but any profession were shortages exist. As it stands now with the cost of tuition many students and their families cannot overcome the financial barriers of attaining a higher level of education.

[Argus]

How, exactly, are you going to frame the issue of Canadians living abroad, so that you can target the Lebanese that you dislike but without targeting Florida retirees, young Canadians teaching English abroad - and other Canadians that you like ?

It has to start with making it more difficult to become a Canadian citizen. It used to take seven years, for example. Now it's just three. I would like it to be twenty years. You could attain permanent landed immigrant status, which would give you all the responbilities and protection of a citizen within seven years - except only no right to vote, and that the status is revokable for criminal acts, or for leaving Canada for a substantial period of time.

If there are shortages, then we need to increase the numbers somehow. Nobody wants physicians and surgeons to lower standards, but we need more GPs.

Then we should train more doctors. There are a number of policy changes which could be put in place to see that this is done, but they haven't been issued or followed. One of the problems, for example, is that up to 1/3rd of the medical residency positions in hospitals are not available to graduates of Canadian medical schools. They're basically sold to foreign governments, because those governments pay large fees. Foreign doctors then get that training, and those doctors then go home again at the end of the day. We need to eliminate this, and train more Canadian doctors.

[Michael Hardner]

ic,

MH, I never said I hated Lebanese! I used that incident as an example, that is why I said as an example. As far as the Florida example you used, does that mean that you hate Canadians living abroad? Canadians can only stay in Florida for ~180 days before they must pay American taxes. So most Canadians stay only to escape winter. That is why the term snow birds is used. In addition, do you actually think that the Canadian government would be tripping over themselves to evacuate retired Canadians if there was a natural disaster that required people to leave Florida? As an other example that Canada is selective on who it helps. Compare the fate of William Sampson that was abandoned by the Canadian government and was tortured and in prison for over a year by the Saudi government and Maher Arar, who the Canadian government spared no effort to gain the release of from Syria.

I know you didn't say you hated Lebanese Canadians. You used that as an example, though, so I was just assuming that was why.

No, I don't hate Canadians living abroad. I might want to do it some day. Do I think that the Canadian government would evacuate Florida Canadians if it was necessary ? Absolutely.

Of course Canada is selective on who it helps - what other option is there.

I did not say anything like that. But I and many others do think that the practice of allowing dual citizenship must be addressed. With all the Immigrants that Canada has accepted over the years, it is not practical or possible to offer them the full range and services and protection to everyone that returns to their country of birth.

You pretty much said that people 'holding Canadian passports' are to be reviewed, and you used the Lebanese example.

It's pretty clear to me that this shows up on your radar because of your feelings of patriotism. Nothing wrong with that, but it is an emotional response, and therefore its hard to retrofit some kind of system or logic to it.

My point exactly, Finally we agree on something, without the mud slinging. So instead of depending on the unfair practice of recruiting (stealing) Doctors from developing countries where they are desperately needed, why not open up some more spots in universities to train people here? In fact instead of funnelling money to ESL courses why not provide financial enticements to train in areas where shortages of skills exist? Not only for Doctors but any profession were shortages exist. As it stands now with the cost of tuition many students and their families cannot overcome the financial barriers of attaining a higher level of education.

Sure, but if there are trained doctors coming here, why not take advantage of them now rather than waiting 10+ years for new education initiatives to take effect. Also, you can't just retrain people to be doctors and engineers.

[Michael Hardner]

Arg,

It has to start with making it more difficult to become a Canadian citizen. It used to take seven years, for example. Now it's just three. I would like it to be twenty years. You could attain permanent landed immigrant status, which would give you all the responbilities and protection of a citizen within seven years - except only no right to vote, and that the status is revokable for criminal acts, or for leaving Canada for a substantial period of time.

Ok.

Then we should train more doctors. There are a number of policy changes which could be put in place to see that this is done, but they haven't been issued or followed. One of the problems, for example, is that up to 1/3rd of the medical residency positions in hospitals are not available to graduates of Canadian medical schools. They're basically sold to foreign governments, because those governments pay large fees. Foreign doctors then get that training, and those doctors then go home again at the end of the day. We need to eliminate this, and train more Canadian doctors.

Are you saying that this program is preventing Canada from graduating enough doctors ? That sounds like a problem we should have heard about before now.

[eyeball]

IMO every person applying to this country as an immigrant should have to pay for a complete pre-admission medical check-up, genetic work up, including finger printing retinal eye scan and criminal back ground check before their application is even considered. Anyone sponsoring someone for admission to Canada should have to sign a bond that they will pay for all legal and medical expenses that the person they sponsor accumulates. This means absolutely NO health care, legal aid, subsidized shelter, ESL classes, or any other benefits of citizenship to all newcomers.

I'd like to apply a similarily deep scan of any corporations that wish to do business here and attach all sorts of conditions to their activities and responsibilities.

OTOH so long as governments like ours do everything in their power to ensure corporations are allowed to roam the world at will and set up shop wherever and whenever they wish, humans should be allowed the same priviledges. We're people too after all and we should have at least as many rights as corporations.

Its ridiculous that we should do everything we can to ensure the free movement of goods, services and money around the planet but not the people who make, provide or spend them.

[Oleg Bach]

I'd like to apply a similarily deep scan of any corporations that wish to do business here and attach all sorts of conditions to their activities and responsibilities.

OTOH so long as governments like ours do everything in their power to ensure corporations are allowed to roam the world at will and set up shop wherever and whenever they wish, humans should be allowed the same priviledges. We're people too after all and we should have at least as many rights as corporations.

Its ridiculous that we should do everything we can to ensure the free movement of goods, services and money around the planet but not the people who make, provide or spend them.

People have the most strongest of effects on other people - Goods and sevices are static socially..so they are far behind in inportance in the general scheme of things in a nation (family) Goods and services circulating planetary are okay and you can judge what the quality of the materials are - HUMAN BEINGS are not things but very clever entities that are capable of masterful deception...so there must be controls on their movements internationally in order to protect national turf...there are globalist corporate types that believe that all the terf is there - that your home is their property and your family are but their surfs. To ensure emotional and spiritual sense of purpose and focus you can not invite someone into your family (nation) that is disruptive...but to adhere to a non-disruptive immigration policy would mean that our corporates and governments actually respect the nation and the rights of the indivudual ----THEY DON'T GIVE A DAMN FOR OTHERS...that's the glitch ---so why empower these corporate entities that are more than willing to lobby for human entities to enter and lower the quality of individual and collective national atonomy?

[Michael Hardner]

eb,

I'd like to apply a similarily deep scan of any corporations that wish to do business here and attach all sorts of conditions to their activities and responsibilities.

OTOH so long as governments like ours do everything in their power to ensure corporations are allowed to roam the world at will and set up shop wherever and whenever they wish, humans should be allowed the same priviledges. We're people too after all and we should have at least as many rights as corporations.

Its ridiculous that we should do everything we can to ensure the free movement of goods, services and money around the planet but not the people who make, provide or spend them.

What about our corporations that do business elsewhere ? Whether or not they're using labour in other countries ? You didn't mention them.

And aren't there advantages to certain types of jobs going away ? Should we always be so sad when an occupation disappears ?

[Oleg Bach]

eb,

What about our corporations that do business elsewhere ? Whether or not they're using labour in other countries ? You didn't mention them.

And aren't there advantages to certain types of jobs going away ? Should we always be so sad when an occupation disappears ?

You should not be sad - you should be shocked when those occupied in the growing of domestic food disappear..You should be sad when your best and most creative minds are wasted because they do not fit into the corporate mode and doctrine that states "If you are willing to harm others for profit - you are hired"

[eyeball]

eb,

What about our corporations that do business elsewhere ? Whether or not they're using labour in other countries ? You didn't mention them.

You should know me better than that by now. I thought it went without saying that I'd happily extradite any home-based CEO's to countries that have suffered malfeasance at the hands of a Canadian corporation. We should be just as determined to prevent this as we are preventing sex-tourists from our country. Both are terrible for our image.

And aren't there advantages to certain types of jobs going away ? Should we always be so sad when an occupation disappears ?

Not always perhaps but I'd no more like to see a Canadian corporation be allowed to exploit lax labour or environmental standards in another country as I would have our sex tourists exploit kids there. I don't see any advantage in allowing that, do you?

[Oleg Bach]

You should know me better than that by now. I thought it went without saying that I'd happily extradite any home-based CEO's to countries that have suffered malfeasance at the hands of a Canadian corporation. We should be just as determined to prevent this as we are preventing sex-tourists from our country. Both are terrible for our image.

Not always perhaps but I'd no more like to see a Canadian corporation be allowed to exploit lax labour or environmental standards in another country as I would have our sex tourists exploit kids there. I don't see any advantage in allowing that, do you?

If you look for "advantage" to justify evil - then there is a problem...but I am sure you would not encourage childhood prostitution if it created a billion dollar industry that benefits governmental or corporate pimps... Does everyone have a price? I hope not - much like war - If share holders in the war supplies buisness encourage the killing of civilians - It's just plain wrong - and those that justify it as good are like the person who hits another on the head with a rock and takes his money ---because it was good for the villian does not make it good-