The Future of the Coalition

[Boydfish]

It may be fatal to the LPC or the NDP but not to Confederation.

Ah, the tried and true Canadian approach to a problem: Jam your head in the sand and pray that it will go away.

Why do you fear the reality of an elected government that can continue to govern without having to go to another unnecessary election, when the will of the majority of parliment can be attained.

Because we elect governments, not broker them. It is hard to argue that anything substantial changed in the 6 weeks after the election that led to the NDP and LPC abandoning and breaking all of their promises to their electorate. Not only is it antidemocratic for them to take power in this manner, I have serious concerns about turning over power to a group of people whose coalition is positive proof that they will abandon all of their policies for even a small amount of power.

As well, if there is such support for this coalition, why are you afraid to put it to the people? Perhaps it's because the idea of Jack Layton, Minister of Defence or Minister of Justice scares the everloving bejeebers out of the vast majority of people?

Coalitions and Accords are a safe way to govern. They are superior to fly by the seat of your pants minority governments in jeapardy of sneezing the wrong way for fear of being defeated. They have clear guidelines and cannot be held ransom like some minority parliments.

Governments should be afraid. They should exercise their power with restraint and with reluctance.

Nice try with the fear factor..... it is wearing off in my region as people realize that the Harper CPC government are enjoying their winter vacations in sunny warm places without a care about us.

Believe it or not, when a coalition of Upper and Lower Canadians throw out a western based government without benefit of even a sham election, you're going to piss off westerners a great deal. Reverse the situation: If the same circumstance had unfolded with a French guy hucked out of office for a westerner, you don't think that the French are going to go ballistic?

[eyeball]

I really hope that the Coalition goes into power. It only has 35% of public support with 65% of Canadians against it. It will be the last time the Liberals will ever be in power again. So I say lets let them govern for what? 6 weeks? Then the Tories will gain a massive majority.

35 - 65 sounds pretty similar to the ratio of popular support Harper got in the last two elections. What's phenomenol about this ratio is the way it cuts both ways. You can just as easily hold it up to demonstrate how undemocratic things are and also how democratic things are. Given the regionalization that now exists in Canada our misbegotten electoral system will probably yield similarly massive minority's for at least the rest of all our lives.

A percentage point or two will be all it takes for partisans to believe something puny can be transformed into something massive. This seems somehow fitting when you consider all the unit enlargement products that people buy in today's world. I'd really be interested in seeing a poll done of the political leanings of people who buy things like Viagra. I'm willing to bet at least 60% of them are conservative.

[madmax]

If you remove the spin from your statement, it doesn't change the fact that when the auto sector goes belly-up, Ottawa flings billions at them. When BC's forestry gets hit hard, there isn't so much as a token effort from Ottawa.

The highest losses in Industrial Jobs have been in Ontario since the CPC took Power. That is nearly 200,000 and these are in all facits of industrial job losses. From Food Processing, Packaging, Windows, Beef, Candy, Canning Facilities, Pulp and Paper leading the way, screen printing, bearings, furniture, washer dryers, you name it has dissappeared and that trend has been the case in point since nafta and moreso since the acceptance/confidence of China as a major place to invest and produce consumer goods.

The resource sellout you are talking about is actually something that the coalition has on the table, with regards to FORESTRY that the Harper Government wanted NOTHING to do with. That condition arose on the table because the NDP swept Northern Ontario with the help of devastated communities affected by the loss of Forestry.

The Auto Sector, the sectors that are likely to receive help all happen to be in CPC ridings. One very very close to the Finance Minister.

Of the hundreds of thousands of industrial jobs lost under Harpers watch, the Auto is an important sector but not as many jobs are affected in the grand scheme when other industries are added in.

However, the North American AUTO DEALERS association are lobbying heavily to avert bankruptcies as the financing packages collapse or consumer confidence is lost.

Auto has a broad mandate, and just because operations are located in Ontario, the fact is, no matter where Auto is located, they would ask for government money, just like all companies do, and while Industry has been ignored for 15 years of PC/LPC/CPC rule, it was to allow them the right to invest their money elsewhere and to exit Ontario, without causing a hemorage.

So if you are wondering why forestry is getting nothing, it is because of the CPC. If the CPC choose to support forestry, it will be because of the threat of a coalition government supporting forestry.

As for the Auto sector, you are like most Canadians and have little knowledge of their intentions. Which makes us no different then Americans or Japanese etc.

[Boydfish]

The highest losses in Industrial Jobs have been in Ontario since the CPC took Power.

Well duh, that's because the global economy took a nosedive while they were in office. You're not one of those people who blame Harper for everything in the hope that if you make enough baseless accusations, one will eventually stick, are you?

The resource sellout you are talking about is actually something that the coalition has on the table, with regards to FORESTRY that the Harper Government wanted NOTHING to do with. That condition arose on the table because the NDP swept Northern Ontario with the help of devastated communities affected by the loss of Forestry.

On the table? Oh WOW! On the table. That's a improvement from Ottawa's position under the Liberals(You know, those in the drivers seat of the coalition)which was "Ignore you British Columbians until you go away" policy on dealing with the pine beetle crisis.

Nobody in BC cares about northern Ontario's forestry industry because it's tiny compared to BC's. You keep talking like there is any comparison in terms of scale between BC and Ontario's lumber industries. There isn't. To the BC economy, forestry is the equivilant to Ontario's auto manufacturing sector. The point here is that when Ontario is facing economic hard times, we're all called upon to defend the motherland like good little colonials summoned to die in the trenches of Flanders, but when BC is facing similar challenges, we're unwashed westerners that should be grateful to pay for the mistakes of Canada. It's the selective patroitism of Canadians and their confederation that always bugs me: You hate the west and all westerners as all being redneck racists from Camrose when you don't need us, but the minute you need our money, suddenly we're all one big family and we should be happy to bail out Ontario and Quebec.

The Auto Sector, the sectors that are likely to receive help all happen to be in CPC ridings. One very very close to the Finance Minister.

Considering they have more seats than anybody spread out across the country, it's not shocking to discover that there is federal spending in a cabinet minister's riding. Nice try at creating a scandal based on simple coincidence.

So if you are wondering why forestry is getting nothing, it is because of the CPC. If the CPC choose to support forestry, it will be because of the threat of a coalition government supporting forestry.

You see it as a CPC failure to act, but only because you are ignoring history. The Martin and Chretien regimes both ignored the problem of the pine beetle and the CPC have been left to clean it up. The fact is also less important of which government in Ottawa failed to act, but more an indication that when Ontario or Quebec need help, it's a national issue, but when BC needs help, we get a snide response along the lines of "You're simply westerners and are therefore scum".

[madmax]

Ah, the tried and true Canadian approach to a problem: Jam your head in the sand and pray that it will go away.

No, it is because I believe either the NDP or the LPC will feel the wrath of the voter. You are threatening a Western discontent that would lead to the dismantling of confederation. Bury my head in the sand? Quebec has a long lead in discontent in confederation and they are still here. Ontario has been milked by every province, and shit on by every province, and it is still here, and the east coast has their separtist parties, and have had seats held by those opposed to confederation.

I get used to a bitchy confederation partner.

Because we elect governments, not broker them. It is hard to argue that anything substantial changed in the 6 weeks after the election that led to the NDP and LPC abandoning and breaking all of their promises to their electorate.

I dunno, could it be that the incompetence of the CPC forced them to get up off their asses to prove they could be as incompetent when challenged. Or that the CPC and Harper had to pick up their socks and get busy? Or that the Harper Power play nearly backfired, and that the blowback from the gamesmanship nearly cost him his Prime Ministers seat.

You tell me, what would it have taken, short of a miracle to get the LPC out of the Dion Fetal Position?

Not only is it antidemocratic for them to take power in this manner, I have serious concerns about turning over power to a group of people whose coalition is positive proof that they will abandon all of their policies for even a small amount of power.

Nice Talking points. But Since the current Prime Minister has no problems abandoning his policies and positions within hours of multiple elections, you should be well desensitized by political lies of the CPC and Harper. And to expect the LPC to change positions is to argue that the wind blows in only one direction.

As well, if there is such support for this coalition, why are you afraid to put it to the people? Perhaps it's because the idea of Jack Layton, Minister of Defence or Minister of Justice scares the everloving bejeebers out of the vast majority of people?

I didn't want the September election. But Harper broke his own promise and I got to watch tax monies wasted and a Prime Minister mislead the public for personal political gain. All the MPs elected in September are still there today, (Just not working), and will be there in January. And should enough MPs agree to work together without having another election, then I am all for it. The agreement of the coalition is for 2 years. Harper has no intention of governing beyond fall 2009 before throwing us into another election. If he were to have had the foresight to work with a political party to ensure a majority of seats will pass legislation and keep us out of the polls, why would I complain, regardless of if its the LPC, BQ or NDP? It was good enough for Harper to contemplate in 04, its good enough in 09.

Governments should be afraid. They should exercise their power with restraint and with reluctance.

Or they run off to their GG MOMMY like a little girlie man.

If the same circumstance had unfolded with a French guy hucked out of office for a westerner, you don't think that the French are going to go ballistic?

How the F)#$)#@* would I know what the Frenchies think? I think if Harper gets the BQ on board, they would be happy as life is back to normal again. But if you want to know in some degree what the people in Quebec think, you will have to ask a couple guys in this forum who have a much better grasp of quebec politics then you or I.

[madmax]

Well duh, that's because the global economy took a nosedive while they were in office. You're not one of those people who blame Harper for everything in the hope that if you make enough baseless accusations, one will eventually stick, are you?

The Canadian Economy experienced steady expansion in 2006, 2007, and to midway through 2008 and may yet show expansion when the final numbers come in, but it is highly unlikely. In the midst of this expansion, rapid growth, the loss of value added industrial jobs were masked by growth in Service Sector growth, real estate, resource economy and growth in the financial sector. So, to put it mildly, you are wrong in your assumption that when Harper stepped in, he walked into a global recession let alone a Canadian one or even one in Ontario. But there were all the writings on the wall, of what effect the dramatic loss of Industrialized jobs could do if they continued at the current pace, let alone an accelorated pace.

I hope you are not a Harper Kiss ass and apologist......

Nobody in BC cares about northern Ontario's forestry industry because it's tiny compared to BC's.

That's funny, because I have met with business people in forestry back in 06 and more importantly 07 who cared not only of BCs forest industry but also with Northern Ontarios and forestry across Canada. However, I realize that politicians don't care about forestry, particulary the CPC ones that I met, who happened to be in government, and what do you do with an LPC politicians who decides to care after they have lost government . But arrogant people such as yourself claiming to state that nobody cares about Ontarios Forestry, and that people in BC are only self centred on their own needs is not what I encounter. At best, people in other Provinces are Apathetic. But that doesn't mean that they are not affected by the poor choices of the LCP and CPC governments, or of their Provincial Governments both LPC for that matter.

You keep talking like there is any comparison in terms of scale between BC and Ontario's lumber industries. There isn't.

You must be mistaking me for someone else. I make no such claim.

To the BC economy, forestry is the equivilant to Ontario's auto manufacturing sector.

The point here is that when Ontario is facing economic hard times, we're all called upon to defend the motherland like good little colonials summoned to die in the trenches of Flanders, but when BC is facing similar challenges, we're unwashed westerners that should be grateful to pay for the mistakes of Canada.

The former is true and the latter is BS. If your federal and Provincial governments don't care about Forestry in BC, it is because of their support for a Neo Liberal economic model. To that end, export to the US is your main artery and that artery is clogged by the Harper Agreement. Nothing to do with anyone in Ontario. David Emerson is PURE BC crap. That stink lies with Harpers choice.

It's the selective patroitism of Canadians and their confederation that always bugs me: You hate the west and all westerners as all being redneck racists from Camrose when you don't need us, but the minute you need our money, suddenly we're all one big family and we should be happy to bail out Ontario and Quebec.

So, like BC is a big "Have Province". The money had been going from Ontario To BC not visa versa... You are no Newfoundland, or ALberta ..... maybe Albertans should be ticked at propping up BC and its failing lumber industry ?

Considering they have more seats than anybody spread out across the country, it's not shocking to discover that there is federal spending in a cabinet minister's riding. Nice try at creating a scandal based on simple coincidence.

You are asking where the money is going, and many of the ridings that have a large Auto Base are Conservative. That money has yet to be earmarked, but at the end of the day it goes to the large corporations who will likely declare themselves under CCAA and operate under bankruptcy protection to complete the exodus.

You see it as a CPC failure to act, but only because you are ignoring history. The Martin and Chretien regimes both ignored the problem of the pine beetle and the CPC have been left to clean it up. The fact is also less important of which government in Ottawa failed to act, but more an indication that when Ontario or Quebec need help, it's a national issue, but when BC needs help, we get a snide response along the lines of "You're simply westerners and are therefore scum".

Funny thing is, Emerson is the LPC/CPC MP, who was BC MP and Cabinet Minister for the CPC government who not only gave you the forestry deal, he is the one who turned down the pine beetle aid.

NDP Pushes the BC and Federal Governments to Act on Pine Beetle Aid

July 8, 2005

VANCOUVER - Federal Industry Minister David Emerson's admission that the federal government has ruled out a pine beetle aid package is very disturbing news for BC communities affected by the pine beetle epidemic, NDP Forestry Critic Bob Simpson said today.

That is not the CPC talking, it is the NDP critic calling for aid. The fact that the LCP and CPC don't listen to BCs forestry sector is not surprising.

And provincially you had this aspect.

NDP Intergovernmental Affairs Critic Michael Sather said Mr. Emerson's admission shows that the BC Liberal government has failed to effectively advance BC's case for pine beetle aid with the federal government.

Of course what did the CPC do with that Pine Beetle money?

WENDY STUECK

From Monday's Globe and Mail

September 15, 2008 at 4:39 AM EST

VANCOUVER — The Conservative Party has raided its pine-beetle fund to pay for airport improvements in three British Columbia cities,

Great help eh, right during the election they were taking from the fund, and you think they are great.

Don't trust politicians...they milk you....

[Boydfish]

You are threatening a Western discontent that would lead to the dismantling of confederation.

I'm not threatening anything. I'm saying that Ontario and Quebec have to accept that a very likely outcome of their attempt to replace a western-based government with a government more friendly to Upper and Lower Canada without an election is going to have dire consequences for their confederation. It's pretty obvious that when you treat people badly, they are not going to like it.

Quebec has a long lead in discontent in confederation and they are still here.

The greatest mistake a Canadian political analyst could make would be thinking that western discontent is in anyway similar to the French issues in Quebec.

Ontario has been milked by every province, and shit on by every province, and it is still here...

Milked? Shat upon? Ontario?

You need to take your medication either more or less, I can't tell. Ask your doctor.

I dunno, could it be that the incompetence of the CPC forced them to get up off their asses to prove they could be as incompetent when challenged. Or that the CPC and Harper had to pick up their socks and get busy? Or that the Harper Power play nearly backfired, and that the blowback from the gamesmanship nearly cost him his Prime Ministers seat.

I'm sorry, but there is no connection between the CPC's management of government and the coalition parties attempt to avoid an election enroute to taking power. If they truly respected the democratic principles enshrined in the constitution, they would welcome a chance to face the electorate. Instead, they have shown that they see the democratic will of the people as an obstacle to be subverted and overcome.

You tell me, what would it have taken, short of a miracle to get the LPC out of the Dion Fetal Position?

So, since the Liberals selected an entirely unacceptable leader to the vast majority of voters, the voters should lose their democratic rights? Or that since the NDP are seen as generally being a group of left wing extremists led by the biggest left wing extremist of all, those voters should lose their democratic rights?

Nice Talking points. But Since the current Prime Minister has no problems abandoning his policies and positions within hours of multiple elections, you should be well desensitized by political lies of the CPC and Harper. And to expect the LPC to change positions is to argue that the wind blows in only one direction.

I noticed that you're gibberish seemed stop short as it came time to note Layton and the NDP abandoning wholesale all of the principles that the NDP stood for. Remember that speech he gave during the last election where he said that if Canadians once again rejected the NDP as totally unsuitable to form government and they also rejected Dion and the Liberals as totally unsuitable to form government, he'd override their democratic choice and form a coalition? No? You don't? That might just be because he didn't mention that part of his hidden agenda to voters.

I didn't want the September election.

Noted, you don't like democracy.

But Harper broke his own promise and I got to watch tax monies wasted and a Prime Minister mislead the public for personal political gain.

I love how the loser parties claim that an election where they lost is somehow wasted money. Democracy is never a waste.

The agreement of the coalition is for 2 years.

Sorry, but they say it's for 2 years. That doesn't mean they won't be defeated on a confidence motion(If you read the text of the agreement, the Bloc won't introduce a motion or vote to to defeat the government. There is nothing stopping them from simply not showing up for the vote and the larger CPC majority defeating the coalition).

As well, since they decieved the general public on their plans before the election, it's quite possible that their hidden agenda includes the total cancellation of all future pesky elections as well.

Or they run off to their GG MOMMY like a little girlie man.

Wow. I'm not surprised that Canadians voters rejected the NDP as a governing option. When you come out against motherhood as a policy, I'm not surprised that people don't like it.

How the F)#$)#@* would I know what the Frenchies think?

If you don't understand people or confederal politics enough to answer that question, I suspect that you lack even the basic knowledge to form a relevant opinion on it.

Harper has no intention of governing beyond fall 2009 before throwing us into another election.

[Boydfish]

So, to put it mildly, you are wrong in your assumption that when Harper stepped in, he walked into a global recession let alone a Canadian one or even one in Ontario.

I didn't say he walked into one, I said the meltdown happened while he was in office. Or are you now claiming that there hasn't been a global financial crisis?

That's funny, because I have met with business people in forestry back in 06 and more importantly 07 who cared not only of BCs forest industry but also with Northern Ontarios and forestry across Canada. However, I realize that politicians don't care about forestry, particulary the CPC ones that I met, who happened to be in government, and what do you do with an LPC politicians who decides to care after they have lost government smile.gif. But arrogant people such as yourself claiming to state that nobody cares about Ontarios Forestry, and that people in BC are only self centred on their own needs is not what I encounter. At best, people in other Provinces are Apathetic. But that doesn't mean that they are not affected by the poor choices of the LCP and CPC governments, or of their Provincial Governments both LPC for that matter.

You're trying to shift the point, badly I might add.

The forestry sector is of much greater importance in BC than in Ontario. The auto industry is of much greater importance in Ontario than in BC. When forestry takes a dive, it's ignored and the participants are left to fend for themselves. When the auto indsutry takes a dive, BC is expected to chip in and bail it out.

If your federal and Provincial governments don't care about Forestry in BC, it is because of their support for a Neo Liberal economic model. To that end, export to the US is your main artery and that artery is clogged by the Harper Agreement. Nothing to do with anyone in Ontario. David Emerson is PURE BC crap. That stink lies with Harpers choice.

The problem isn't with the agreement, it's with the entire global economy melting down. Nobody is building houses in US right now, so they don't need BC's high quality wood.

So, like BC is a big "Have Province".

It is a have province and the only reason we were recently slightly below "have" status was that we rewrote our books so that instead of having to send several more billions to Ottawa, they were forced to return some of our money to us. It's not BC fault that we're smarter than Ottawa.

The money had been going from Ontario To BC not visa versa.

Really? Care to discuss federal gas taxes and road improvements?

If you don't see that Ontario and Quebec have always been the net beneficiary parties of confederation, you need to get out more.

You are no Newfoundland, or ALberta ..... maybe Albertans should be ticked at propping up BC and its failing lumber industry ?

Actually, BC has a larger oil/gas sector than Newfoundland. Or are you so Toronto-centric that you are unaware that the oil patch extends right into north eastern BC? Or do you think that oil deposits stop at the border? That doesn't even take into account the vast offshore reserves of oil and gas off the Haida Gwaii.

You are asking where the money is going, and many of the ridings that have a large Auto Base are Conservative.

So the basis of your complaint is that when bailing out the auto sector, they are disbursing funds in ridings that have auto plants?

Great help eh, right during the election they were taking from the fund, and you think they are great.

You've mistaken my position of demanding democracy for absolute support of any party. That's the difference between the NDP and it's hardcore supporters and the rest of the electorate. The bulk of the electorate will shift their votes, even to an extremist party like the NDP, based on the actions of it's leaders and policies. They might not support everything a party they voted for does, but does so based on which is the better choice. The extremists in the NDP, however, will absolutely support the party and it's policies, regardless of how inane or anti-democratic they become.

[Progressive Tory]

I'm not threatening anything. I'm saying that Ontario and Quebec have to accept that a very likely outcome of their attempt to replace a western-based government with a government more friendly to Upper and Lower Canada without an election is going to have dire consequences for their confederation. It's pretty obvious that when you treat people badly, they are not going to like it.

The greatest mistake a Canadian political analyst could make would be thinking that western discontent is in anyway similar to the French issues in Quebec.

Milked? Shat upon? Ontario?

You need to take your medication either more or less, I can't tell. Ask your doctor.

I'm sorry, but there is no connection between the CPC's management of government and the coalition parties attempt to avoid an election enroute to taking power. If they truly respected the democratic principles enshrined in the constitution, they would welcome a chance to face the electorate. Instead, they have shown that they see the democratic will of the people as an obstacle to be subverted and overcome.

So, since the Liberals selected an entirely unacceptable leader to the vast majority of voters, the voters should lose their democratic rights? Or that since the NDP are seen as generally being a group of left wing extremists led by the biggest left wing extremist of all, those voters should lose their democratic rights?

I noticed that you're gibberish seemed stop short as it came time to note Layton and the NDP abandoning wholesale all of the principles that the NDP stood for. Remember that speech he gave during the last election where he said that if Canadians once again rejected the NDP as totally unsuitable to form government and they also rejected Dion and the Liberals as totally unsuitable to form government, he'd override their democratic choice and form a coalition? No? You don't? That might just be because he didn't mention that part of his hidden agenda to voters.

Noted, you don't like democracy.

I love how the loser parties claim that an election where they lost is somehow wasted money. Democracy is never a waste.

Sorry, but they say it's for 2 years. That doesn't mean they won't be defeated on a confidence motion(If you read the text of the agreement, the Bloc won't introduce a motion or vote to to defeat the government. There is nothing stopping them from simply not showing up for the vote and the larger CPC majority defeating the coalition).

As well, since they decieved the general public on their plans before the election, it's quite possible that their hidden agenda includes the total cancellation of all future pesky elections as well.

Wow. I'm not surprised that Canadians voters rejected the NDP as a governing option. When you come out against motherhood as a policy, I'm not surprised that people don't like it.

If you don't understand people or confederal politics enough to answer that question, I suspect that you lack even the basic knowledge to form a relevant opinion on it.

Harper has no intention of governing beyond fall 2009 before throwing us into another election.

"I'm sorry, but there is no connection between the CPC's management of government and the coalition parties attempt to avoid an election enroute to taking power."

We are simply following Harper's advice.

Prime Ministers should not expect to call an election everytime they can't make Parliament function, or so says a man named Stephen Harper. Ever heard of him?

[madmax]

I'm saying that Ontario and Quebec have to accept that a very likely outcome of their attempt to replace a western-based government with a government more friendly to Upper and Lower Canada without an election is going to have dire consequences for their confederation.

The CPC won more seats in Ontario then any other political party. The BQ are the same separtists that the CPC have been relying on since 2004. What you are playing out as regionalism, and firewall mentality is complete BS considering that the CPC like the LPC and the NDP are federalist parties. The CPC being the party that first offered to officially recognise Quebec as a Nation. Something that the LPC was LOATHE to do, and the NDP gave lip service to.

Sorry, but the BQ butt kissing has long been held by the CPC. The only thing now, is that the CPC wants its BQ baby back, and that isn't going to happen in the short run, so they are going to affectionately kiss IGGY and see how long that works.

There are more CPC seats in Ontario then any other Province.

It's pretty obvious that when you treat people badly, they are not going to like it.

The greatest mistake a Canadian political analyst could make would be thinking that western discontent is in anyway similar to the French issues in Quebec.

So, who is making that mistake? No one I know, nor any analysis..., BC isn't going anywhere or leaving anytime soon.

I'm sorry, but there is no connection between the CPC's management of government and the coalition parties attempt to avoid an election enroute to taking power.

The CPC immediately tried to take down the Martin Government in the throne speech of 2004 and insert themselves as a replacement government with the help of the BQ. Parlimentary rules are the same as they have always been. When the Ontario Provincial Conservatives were replaced by an Accord, there was no "East West" spin behind the move. It was parlimentary politics as derived from the elected body.

If they truly respected the democratic principles enshrined in the constitution, they would welcome a chance to face the electorate.

In fact, the government just held an election with the intent to form a majority. They didn't succeed and the public sent them a minority of seats in order to have the CPC work with other MPs to pass legislation. Mr Harpers inability to reach across and Mr Flaherties incompetence as a finance minister reflect upon themselves and since they had chosen to go it alone, they found themselves alone and loney and challenged by parties who were willing to work together. Making parliment work. Instead of reaching out, Mr Harper is the one who Suspended Parliment. He could well have went ahead with the vote of confidence, but he was afraid.

Instead, they have shown that they see the democratic will of the people as an obstacle to be subverted and overcome.

The democratic "will" is reflected by the Majority of the Seats in the house. He who receives enough votes in the house from Elected MPs passes legislation and maintains confidence in the house.

So, since the Liberals selected an entirely unacceptable leader to the vast majority of voters, the voters should lose their democratic rights?

The selection of Dion by the LPC as their leader, has no effect on my Elected CPC MP. He will not change. The fact that Dion was a failure is a problem for the LPC, not a problem for the elected MPs. The LPC have removed Dion.

Or that since the NDP are seen as generally being a group of left wing extremists led by the biggest left wing extremist of all, those voters should lose their democratic rights?

The NDP are a Western Based Party that have held and maintained Provincial Governments in 3 of the 4 Western Provinces, far more then any Conservative Party, or Liberal Party for that matter. BC, MAN, SASK have the ability to form NDP governments, something that is unlikely to ever happen in Ontario since the NDPs only run at the helm was a failure, and the NDP have never ever held more then 1 Seat in Quebec, something that the CPC out paces them in a 10 to 1 fashion.

The number of "Western NDP Seats" to "Quebec NDP seats" is 13 to 1.

I noticed that you're gibberish seemed stop short as it came time to note Layton and the NDP abandoning wholesale all of the principles that the NDP stood for. Remember that speech he gave during the last election where he said that if Canadians once again rejected the NDP as totally unsuitable to form government and they also rejected Dion and the Liberals as totally unsuitable to form government, he'd override their democratic choice and form a coalition? No? You don't? That might just be because he didn't mention that part of his hidden agenda to voters.

Layton actually endorsed working with all parties in the house and making parliment work. He also did not rule out a coalition.

He was also correct in stating during the election that the LPC were going to get hammered and will be looking for a new leader.

Noted, you don't like democracy.

I believe that when a law is passed that has fixed election dates, and the government isn't voted down, that we should not engage in futile unnecessary elections to mask fiscal mismanagement in order to achieve a majority before the poop hits the pavement. I exercised my rights and voted in September. It is the Harper Government who has subverted democracy by moving back the confidence vote, then, suspending parliment completely. He has no one to blame but himself for the current state of parliment. He is the Prime Minister.

I love how the loser parties claim that an election where they lost is somehow wasted money. Democracy is never a waste.

I don't know about loser parties calling elections a waste of Money. The CPC had a pyrhic victory, the NDP gained seats, and the LPC lost seats, and I believe the BQ held, but at the end of the day, it was a complete waste of taxpayers money. It was an unnecessary election.

Sorry, but they say it's for 2 years. That doesn't mean they won't be defeated on a confidence motion(If you read the text of the agreement, the Bloc won't introduce a motion or vote to to defeat the government. There is nothing stopping them from simply not showing up for the vote and the larger CPC majority defeating the coalition).

You have a crystal ball? I don't.

As well, since they decieved the general public on their plans before the election, it's quite possible that their hidden agenda includes the total cancellation of all future pesky elections as well.

Wow. I'm not surprised that Canadians voters rejected the NDP as a governing option. When you come out against motherhood as a policy, I'm not surprised that people don't like it.

If you don't understand people or confederal politics enough to answer that question, I suspect that you lack even the basic knowledge to form a relevant opinion on it.

Well, aren't you a partisan hack of the worst kind. I didn't realized that the Prime Minister called an election and was completely honest and with noble and honourable intentions. How wonderful of him to be honest and forthcoming with the public.

Unfortuneately, honesty, integrity and being forthcoming, are not the Prime MInisters strengths.

He is behaving and acting much like the LPC and LPC governments before him, when dealing with Senate Positions, like Fortiers, and Floor Crossings Like Emerson, and new Senate appointments. Infact, the Prime Minister held a National Address and failed to disclose that he was going to ask the GG to suspend parliment the very next day. Just an oversight from an open and honest and forthcoming PM.

Mr. Harper and the CPC currently stink to high heaven, which most people are used to in politics. However, their fiscal incompetence leaves alot to be desired.

Harper has no intention of governing beyond fall 2009 before throwing us into another election.

Exactly, no intention of governing beyond fall 2009.

[madmax]

I didn't say he walked into one, I said the meltdown happened while he was in office. Or are you now claiming that there hasn't been a global financial crisis?

There has not been a "Global Financial Crises since 2006. The fiscal mismanagement of the Harper Government had occurred prior to the recent fiscal meltdown in the last quarter of 2008.

The forestry sector is of much greater importance in BC than in Ontario. The auto industry is of much greater importance in Ontario than in BC. When forestry takes a dive, it's ignored and the participants are left to fend for themselves.

Stop electioning bad governments in BC. You have LPC and CPC policies which are the same for forestry. That has nothing to do with Ontario and their choice for bad government.

When the auto indsutry takes a dive, BC is expected to chip in and bail it out.

No, everyday people are expected to hand over large amounts of money to large corporations, banks, and yes, Forestry Companies....

Its called lining up at the trough...

Lining Up at the Trough

Tony Wanless | Image: B.C. Ministry of Forests and Range | Published: December 22, 2008

The forestry industry in B.C. and Canada is now lining up in Ottawa and asking for a bailout or some other kind of relief for its problems.

Can't say as I blame them. Why shouldn't they? After all, they do represent a real Canadian industry, instead of branch plants of American companies like the big automakers.

But of course the forestry industry will only be the second in what's going to be a long line at the government financial trough. What about the oil industry, which is in deep do-do because of suddenly falling oil prices that make projects like the Tarsands project uneconomic? What about any resource industry, like mining, which borrowed wads of money and was suddenly confronted with the collapse of the commodities bubble.

What about the secondary industries like retail, and services and media? They've been hurt by financial turmoil as well.

In other words, where does all this stop? Here's the answer: At your wallet.

The problem isn't with the agreement, it's with the entire global economy melting down. Nobody is building houses in US right now, so they don't need BC's high quality wood.

Well if the agreement is fine, no worries over split milk.... Glad your happy with it.

It is a have province and the only reason we were recently slightly below "have" status was that we rewrote our books so that instead of having to send several more billions to Ottawa, they were forced to return some of our money to us. It's not BC fault that we're smarter than Ottawa.

BC has been a have not Province for quite some time.

Really? Care to discuss federal gas taxes and road improvements?

Federal Gas taxes were to be reduced by the Harper Government. He flip flopped. Road improvements are a Provincial issue. Your Province has implemented NEW Taxes in the form of a Carbon Tax, Green SHift, Dion loving measure.

Enjoy.

If you don't see that Ontario and Quebec have always been the net beneficiary parties of confederation, you need to get out more.

Every Province makes arguments of "who Benefits" and Quebec sure doesn't share your opinion. Nor do I share Quebecs opinion, anymore then I share Ontario Loyalists or yours.

Actually, BC has a larger oil/gas sector than Newfoundland. Or are you so Toronto-centric that you are unaware that the oil patch extends right into north eastern BC? Or do you think that oil deposits stop at the border? That doesn't even take into account the vast offshore reserves of oil and gas off the Haida Gwaii.

Pretty Sad that Newfoundland can be a "have Province and BC can't. Are you a BC can or a BC can't?

So the basis of your complaint is that when bailing out the auto sector, they are disbursing funds in ridings that have auto plants?

You've mistaken my position of demanding democracy for absolute support of any party.

You absolutely support the Harper Conservatives. Therefore support their forestry policy, fiscal mismanagement, and disbursement of monies to AutoManufacturers unchecked and unaccountable, so long as the corporation receives its secured "Loan" and the CPC MPs hold onto their seats. The announcements of monies dispursed will look good in the ridings, but in the end corporations use these monies to secure the future of their operations existence, not its future in Ontario. The ship has sailed and left port and isn't going to turn around, it just needs more juice to continue the journey.

That's the difference between the NDP and it's hardcore supporters and the rest of the electorate. The bulk of the electorate will shift their votes, even to an extremist party like the NDP, based on the actions of it's leaders and policies. They might not support everything a party they voted for does, but does so based on which is the better choice. The extremists in the NDP, however, will absolutely support the party and it's policies, regardless of how inane or anti-democratic they become.

I prefer swing voters. Hardcore supporters exist in everyparty, and we have plenty here on MLW.

You are hardcore CPC, and have no intentions other then to defend everything the CPC has done and blame those out of power for events that have not come to pass.

Good luck with that.

[Topaz]

I think BC and forestry should get Ottawa's help after all, its their talks that let a billion dollars back to the US instead of coming back to the forestry sector. I still remember Emerson standing up in the Commons saying that the Cons got a better deal for the forestry than the Liberal ever could!! Wait... wasn't Emerson himself that was doing all the talking for the Libs then too???? If you look at most of the problems behind people losing their jobs you'll find that government had something to do with it!!

[ToadBrother]

I think BC and forestry should get Ottawa's help after all, its their talks that let a billion dollars back to the US instead of coming back to the forestry sector. I still remember Emerson standing up in the Commons saying that the Cons got a better deal for the forestry than the Liberal ever could!! Wait... wasn't Emerson himself that was doing all the talking for the Libs then too???? If you look at most of the problems behind people losing their jobs you'll find that government had something to do with it!!

That's true to a point, but right now the problem is that the demand for lumber has pretty much evaporated. Softwood quotas don't mean much when no one in the US is buying wood.

[bush_cheney2004]

That's true to a point, but right now the problem is that the demand for lumber has pretty much evaporated. Softwood quotas don't mean much when no one in the US is buying wood.

Funny how that works...huh? I'll bet they long for the softwood lumber dispute of old......yes...those were the days!