Canada Announces $4b Auto Bailout Package

[Smallc]

That's one way to look at it I suppose. Fact is, we are a small market. If we can't sign agreements, its harder to export, and if its harder to export, we don't do as well. Free trade isn't hurting our economy. We have done better under free trade than at any time in our history.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

Better off with free trade?

First of all, it isn't and never was free. Remember the softwood issues? How about all sorts of agricultural issues? Like I said we have actually lost good paying jobs, and gained bad paying jobs. Our manufacturing industries have declined, but our retail has increased. What has really happened is that the overall economy has grown, but the true GDP has actually fallen. There is a very real difference in the production of domestic goods and the sale of imported goods. Its a numbers game played by politicians seeking to cover their asses.

We are now unable to restrict business from moving into Canada. We MUST treat foreign business the same way we treat domestic business. What we have done is forfeit the ability of our government to legislate in the best interests of our citizens by providing "equal" opportunity to all. This is another of the democratic diseases that we have begun to understand. The rise of corporatism and the demise of democracy go hand in hand.

[Smallc]

Again, that's one way to look at it, but in reality it doesn't make it true. The reality is, we are one of the most prosperous and peaceful nations on earth. Part of that prosperity has been gained under free trade. Good paying resource and export jobs have also been gained under free trade. WE still have a trade surplus, we still have a vibrant economy. You seem to be chasing bogymen.

[GostHacked]

GM sells more small fuel efficient cars and hybrids than any other company. In almost all vehicle categories, they have top fuel economy or withing 1 - 2 mpg of top fuel economy. In most categories, Ford has very similar numbers. Ford also has higher quality than most other brands. The only problem that the domestic brands have is one of perception.

No, you're statement was that GM has more fuel efficient cars than foreign cars. I proved you wrong. If you has stated at the start, that GM sells more fuel effiecient cars in NA , then I would be more inclinced to agree.

I rent plenty of vehicles, for my job. The worst I have had was a Chevy Impala. Hated it. The other was an Oldsmobile Alvero, which sucked as well. The two tops ones I had, were the Hyundai Sonata, and the Toyota Corolla. The 3rd spot would have went to the Dodge Magnum.

I have owned a Dodge and a Ford, and have driven mostly GM products throuout my life. To tell you the truth, most cars take some getting used to. However the Hyundaiu Sonata, was a perfect fit for me. Everything was in the right spot.

[Smallc]

No, you're statement was that GM has more fuel efficient cars than foreign cars.

GM is at the top or near the top in almost every category of car. I hate GM. With a passion. But they do have very good fuel efficiency on many models. They have had very good fuel efficiency for a long time. I may have been wrong that they are always at the top, but when they aren't they are always in second or third place with only marginal differences in mileage from the top contender.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

The auto industry makes up 12% of the entire nations GDP. More than 150000 directly related jobs in that industry fueled the Ontario economy in 2001. That industry is now failing and will collapse completely without government intervention. The oil industry in Alberta just lost 35 billion dollars in planned investments. The fishing industry on the east coast took billions out of the economy as well. The housing collapse in the US will gut our lumber industry.

I don't know what planet you are living on, but you should maybe read a paper or something, the economy in Canada is tanking fast. The government is going into massive deficits and our most prosperous province has just been declared a "have not" province.

Trade surpluses mean nothing to unemployed workers, other than the fact that some corporation is making more money and paying less taxes than they are. Again, numbers are crunched in the same way statistics are produced. You start with an answer and formulate a question that fits the answer. The reality of the event is that this nation and the one south of us have declare a recession. Its worst in Germany, and they are the most productive nation in Europe. The next word you can expect to be used is depression. In other words the economy sucks!

What is even more troubling, if you can believe there is such a thing, is the simple truth that we are no longer able to protect citizens and our domestic companies from foreign competition. We made that little action against the law with our trade agreements.

[Smallc]

I don't know what planet you are living on, but you should maybe read a paper or something, the economy in Canada is tanking fast.

I read news all the time. Things aren't great, but they are better than in other places. Fact is, what goes up, must come down. This time, it came down hard, but what is happening has very little if anything to do with Canada. We are still one of the most prosperous countries in the world and we are still enjoying one of the richest times in our history.

[GostHacked]

GM is at the top or near the top in almost every category of car. I hate GM. With a passion. But they do have very good fuel efficiency on many models. They have had very good fuel efficiency for a long time. I may have been wrong that they are always at the top, but when they aren't they are always in second or third place with only marginal differences in mileage from the top contender.

Alright, show me the links.

[Smallc]

Alright, show me the links.

http://www.gm.com/vehicles/results.jsp?sort=brand

Sort it by fuel economy. They have a great number of very fuel efficient cars. Very few companies have that many cars in the mid 30s on the US system (which is far more correct in its results than ours). Granted, many of them are re badges, bu they are counted as separate models. Also, I apologize for giving false information about them being at the top earlier, but the reality is, GM doesn't have a fuel efficiency problem.

[Brunopolis]

Sure, this may be the case.

But then, GM probably also sells more big polluting vehicles than any other company.

Don't get me wrong: Toyota is not nearly as pure as people think they are. Toyota sells gas pigs too. So does Honda (although I would think that in Canada, if not North America, Honda would probably be the greenest car company in terms of product mix based on weighted average sales - but I'm not about to crunch the numbers so who knows?).

The difference, however, is that Toyota tends to make money whether they are selling a Yaris or a Sequoia.

GM isn't making much money (and generally losing money) whether they sell an Aveo or a Yukon.

As for perception - GM got away with sales for years (decades) based on the perception that they sold a good product.

It is only fitting that GM loses sales for years (decades if they find a way to survive) based on the perception that they sell garbage.

Perception lags for years and companies have to live with that lag - good or bad.

Go to any country that is not United States or Canada and you will see a different picture. In Latin America, for example, American cars are extremely popular. Their are dozens of brands world-wide that simply don't exist in North America.

Here are a few

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Celta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Corsa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon_(Australia)

[Jerry J. Fortin]

I read news all the time. Things aren't great, but they are better than in other places. Fact is, what goes up, must come down. This time, it came down hard, but what is happening has very little if anything to do with Canada. We are still one of the most prosperous countries in the world and we are still enjoying one of the richest times in our history.

Yes we are prosperous, we have a seat at the G8. Yes we are enjoying the richest time in our history. Then again these are very relative things. This nation is export dependent, yes or no? When the world economy tanks, we go with it, or more importantly when the American economy tanks we go with it since we are so totally dependent upon them importing our exports. The point is that we have never properly developed our own economy. We have chosen to be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water. We have failed to follow some very basic nation building steps, yes there were reasons for it but you can now see the results. We need more value added industries based on our natural resource wealth. We need to create manufacturing capacity and exploit our resource advantage. This is pretty basic stuff people, and we need to pay attention to the details.

Admittedly we are a part of a global economy, where very few nations are in fact self sufficient, nobody would argue that point. However, this nation has resources with which to work with while many others do not. We have the technological capacity to mechanize production facilities to the point of virtual automation. This is where our fiscal ability should be put to its greatest leveraged effort. We need an internal market to start with before we head out into the global market. We need to be producing literally everything sought in the consumer market by our own citizens and brand it Canadian and provide a solid foundation from which we can then grow into international markets. We need to promote ourselves in our own country first.

What has happened in the case of Canada is that we began our development in the correct manner then abandoned it for war time production. After the war we never turned away from this policy. Manufacturing was centered around transportation hubs and population centers in eastern Canada, the rest of the nation merely supported the efforts with raw materials. Little has changed from those days until now. Not withstanding normal development all sorts of efforts were made to concentrate industrial efforts in central Canada by the federal government. Foreign investment was the key to our development because the nation was young and without the capabilities to develop on our own. times have changed but the basic economic foundation in this nation has failed to keep pace. Now what we have is a contracting industrial base in central Canada, and a natural resource based economy everywhere else.

[Smallc]

Yes we are prosperous, we have a seat at the G8. Yes we are enjoying the richest time in our history. Then again these are very relative things. This nation is export dependent, yes or no? When the world economy tanks, we go with it, or more importantly when the American economy tanks we go with it since we are so totally dependent upon them importing our exports. The point is that we have never properly developed our own economy. We have chosen to be the hewers of wood and the drawers of water. We have failed to follow some very basic nation building steps, yes there were reasons for it but you can now see the results. We need more value added industries based on our natural resource wealth. We need to create manufacturing capacity and exploit our resource advantage. This is pretty basic stuff people, and we need to pay attention to the details.

As an export economy, we bring money into Canada. As a consumer economy, we would simply be moving money around within Canada. If we didn't export in the amounts that we do, we'd never enjoy the prosperity that we do, simply because a population of 33M isn't enough to sustain an economy of $1.5T. Yes, we can do better, but we shouldn't necessarily change the way we make money just because you don;t think its the best way.

[Jerry J. Fortin]

As an export economy, we bring money into Canada. As a consumer economy, we would simply be moving money around within Canada. If we didn't export in the amounts that we do, we'd never enjoy the prosperity that we do, simply because a population of 33M isn't enough to sustain an economy of $1.5T. Yes, we can do better, but we shouldn't necessarily change the way we make money just because you don;t think its the best way.

Please understand that I do not advocate that we stop doing what we are doing. I merely suggest that we made mistakes developing our nation and that those mistakes need to be rectified. What I do advocate is enhancing our capabilities, I believe that is in the best interests of citizens. Instead of shipping logs out of the country, ship tables and chairs as well as 2x4 and the like. Instead of shipping potash, mix it with sulphur and other chemicals and sell fertilizer. Instead of shipping oil out of the country in a pipeline, ship it in 1 litre plastic bottles made in Alberta. You see where I am going with this?

[Smallc]

Please understand that I do not advocate that we stop doing what we are doing. I merely suggest that we made mistakes developing our nation and that those mistakes need to be rectified. What I do advocate is enhancing our capabilities, I believe that is in the best interests of citizens. Instead of shipping logs out of the country, ship tables and chairs as well as 2x4 and the like. Instead of shipping potash, mix it with sulphur and other chemicals and sell fertilizer. Instead of shipping oil out of the country in a pipeline, ship it in 1 litre plastic bottles made in Alberta. You see where I am going with this?

And I like your idea. The only thing that may stand in its way is the fact that our labour costs may make it impossible for other countries to buy our goods or for us to afford them ourselves.

[msj]

Go to any country that is not United States or Canada and you will see a different picture. In Latin America, for example, American cars are extremely popular. Their are dozens of brands world-wide that simply don't exist in North America.

Here are a few

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Celta

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_Corsa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Falcon_(Australia)

All good and fine.

I am only talking about cars/trucks in the context of Canada/North America.

Never claimed otherwise, and this forum is under Canadian Politics > Federal Politics and I specifically mentioned Canada/North America so I would have assumed the average person would have understood that.

Doesn't change the fact that GM loses money (for a variety of reasons) compared to Toyota and Honda.

Edited December 28, 2008 by msj

[Jerry J. Fortin]

And I like your idea. The only thing that may stand in its way is the fact that our labour costs may make it impossible for other countries to buy our goods or for us to afford them ourselves.

The answer to that is to lower our production costs. Again let me state clearly that automated production is the key. The use of highly advanced robotics and enhanced computer technologies make this not simply a possibility it makes it highly likely. In addition, we have the raw materials necessary for this type of production. Hydrocarbons and metals are both part of our resource cocktail. We can do this, and we MUST do this if we want to be competitive.

[tamtam10]

The US just provided more bailout money to GMAC, a GM financial affiliate. When will the madness end!?

[bush_cheney2004]

The US just provided more bailout money to GMAC, a GM financial affiliate. When will the madness end!?

When Canada tells the US to stop the madness ?.....nah.....

[bush_cheney2004]

The answer to that is to lower our production costs. Again let me state clearly that automated production is the key. The use of highly advanced robotics and enhanced computer technologies make this not simply a possibility it makes it highly likely. In addition, we have the raw materials necessary for this type of production. Hydrocarbons and metals are both part of our resource cocktail. We can do this, and we MUST do this if we want to be competitive.

Canada doesn't even have a domestic make anymore. It cannot do what Sweden has managed for years with 25% of the population.

[Oleg Bach]

Your fired!

Just love saying that.

[bush_cheney2004]

Your fired!

Just love saying that.

I know...that too is an American joint.