Zimbabwe

[Argus]

Has there ever been a more screwed up shithole than Zimbabwe? How many of its residents would drop to their knees, tears in their eyes, giving praise to Jesus if the white oppressors were to return and take over control again?

It's too bad the Americans and brits are busy in the middle east. I don't think too many sane people would get upset if they invaded Zimbabwe. Unfortunately, no one else is likely to intervene, and the country, with its 300,000% annnual inflation rate, continues to collapse amid 90% unemployment, cholera and starvation.

Failing Zimbabwe: Reporter roundup

[Sir Bandelot]

This is a case where sanctions by the west show they hurt the people far more than the elite ruling class, who will get their pound of flesh either way. It would have been better to send in troops and solve the problem directly, but that requires committment by the global community, and there would be significant outcry against sending troops, risking their lives to fix someone elses problem.

Although, it could be argued that the west is partly responsible. The British really have no right to criticize after what their legacy has done to Africa at large.

[M.Dancer]

Although, it could be argued that the west is partly responsible. The British really have no right to criticize after what their legacy has done to Africa at large.

When white rule ended in Rhodesia almost 30 years ago (british rule ended 43 years ago), Rhodesia was a modern prosperous nation despite years of sanctions against Ian Smith's regime and years of warfare.

It took only 10 years for Mugabe to end all that through incompetance, theft and tribal rivalry and to bring the nation to the brink of anarchy.

There is nothing about the current situation that can be laid at the feet of Britain, except maybe allowing the UDI to stand.

[Sir Bandelot]

There are still sanctions even now.

[AngusThermopyle]

There are still sanctions even now.

So?

What does your statement have to do with the facts that Dancer posted?

Its common knowledge that countries in Africa that were under British rule were prosperous. Its also common knowledge that once they came under indigenous rule they became unlivable shit holes.

[Sir Bandelot]

So?

What does your statement have to do with the facts that Dancer posted?

Its common knowledge that countries in Africa that were under British rule were prosperous. Its also common knowledge that once they came under indigenous rule they became unlivable shit holes.

Part of the problem besides Mugabe himself is, the colonialists take revenge on the people for becoming independent. They seek to undermine the success of independence. Don't deny thats true... sanctions have little if any effect on the leadership, as has been evidenced many times before. See Iraq for example- up to one million people died, including hundreds of thousands of children. Yet Saddam remained and was fat and healthy.

The hope is that sanctions will either persuade the government to change, or force the people to remove their own government. But that can't be done when the government has full military control. Besides, what is better, a swift and effective takeover by foreign invaders or a prolonged bloody civil war? I would support the first option. But if its not in the interest of the global community, meaning for themselves economically and politically, it doesn't happen. Instead they wash their hands of the affair and put in sanctions- let them sort out there own problems and devil may care. Therefore one can only conclude, there is no real interest in creating humanitarian democracies.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Sir Bandelot

[M.Dancer]

Part of the problem besides Mugabe himself is, the colonialists take revenge on the people for becoming independent. They seek to undermine the success of independence.

That certainly hasn't been the case in Zimbabwe. The white population bent over backwards to accomadate and to make peace. They were war weary and optimistic at first but have edured confiscations, murder, rapes....

[Mr.Canada]

I talk to people for a living, so as you can imagine I speak to thousands of people a year and I have spoke about this with many black S. Africans and former black Rhodesians and most have stated that they had it better under white rule, they say that the black leaders just aren't fit to lead. At least the ones that have come to the job thus far, hopefully this will change.

EDIT - For the record I feel that the former white rulers should have worked together in a (dare I say it?) coalition effort for a while to help these black Africans and show them how to rule instead of just throwing them the keys and walking away.

Edited December 10, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[blueblood]

I talk to people for a living, so as you can imagine I speak to thousands of people a year and I have spoke about this with many black S. Africans and former black Rhodesians and most have stated that they had it better under white rule, they say that the black leaders just aren't fit to lead. At least the ones that have come to the job thus far, hopefully this will change

EDIT - For the record I feel that the former white rulers should have worked together in a (dare I say it?) coalition effort for a while to help these black Africans and show them how to rule instead of just throwing them the keys and walking away.

Piss on them, if they want independance and to boot out the elites, why should the elites help them out? If I was in government and booted out of office like in Rhodesia, my ass goes on a plane far far away from there with my bag of money under my seat.

[M.Dancer]

Piss on them, if they want independance and to boot out the elites, why should the elites help them out? If I was in government and booted out of office like in Rhodesia, my ass goes on a plane far far away from there with my bag of money under my seat.

If they let you take your money that is....

[Oleg Bach]

Piss on them, if they want independance and to boot out the elites, why should the elites help them out? If I was in government and booted out of office like in Rhodesia, my ass goes on a plane far far away from there with my bag of money under my seat.

No body runs off a good ruler - and no ruler leaves with a bag - unless he is a bag full of dirt...I feel sorry for all the places in the world that are taken over by people who want power and wealth - seems to be a disease that is everywhere - not just in Africa - by the way - what do you think of that governor attempting to sell Obamas senatorial seat - mabe Obama had money in a bag under that seat - the plot thickens....into a soup of poison - what's next - an asteroid bambing the earth - Lord have mercey!

[BC_chick]

no one else is likely to intervene

No oil. No liberation.

That's the neocon slogan.

[blueblood]

No oil. No liberation.

That's the neocon slogan.

I wasn't aware Yugoslavia and Israel had oil.

I wasn't aware South Korea had oil.

[BC_chick]

I wasn't aware Yugoslavia and Israel had oil.

I wasn't aware South Korea had oil.

South Korea, wow, why not bring up WWII while you're at it...

As for Israel, I don't know any military intervention on the part of the US so far (though I'm sure Palestinians would welcome it), and Yugoslavia was just too close to Europe to turn a blind eye.

Simple.

[M.Dancer]

South Korea, wow, why not bring up WWII while you're at it...

As for Israel, I don't know any military intervention on the part of the US so far (though I'm sure Palestinians would welcome it), and Yugoslavia was just too close to Europe to turn a blind eye.

Simple.

What was Somalia's reason?

[moderateamericain]

No oil. No liberation.

That's the neocon slogan.

Yes because The United States is the soul conduit for liberation? Give me a break. Tell Europe to get off its fat rear end and liberate someone. I hate the double standard. Were agressive warmongers and NeoCons if we want to go to war with one despote but if its pc enough they O we have to save these peoples. Careful you dont trip over your own hypocricy.

[Sir Bandelot]

Yes, being empire means you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Get used to it

[moderateamericain]

Yes, being empire means you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Get used to it

Okay then by that logic, maintaining an empire is knowing which conflict to enter and which to not. Since were eternally screwed by World view, then why should we even give a darn to what anyone thinks?

[Argus]

There are still sanctions even now.

There are none, actually. The lefties who were so adamant that sanctions were the way to go when South Africa and Rhodesia were White ruled would not even consider sanctions against a black-ruled regime because, apparently, while they hurt the people, that was okay before.

The only sanctions in place are specifically directed at the ruling class and consist of things like travel restrictions and trying to grab any obvious swiss bank accounts laying around, as well as a ban on weapons sales. They're essentially meaningless, and have played no part whatsoever in turning Zimbabwe into a disease riddled shithole. These are sanctions put in place by individual western nations, btw, because there are no UN sanctions against Zimbabwe. Those paragons of human rights concerns - the Chinese and Russians - vetoed any sanctions.

Now when Rhodesia was white-ruled the sanctions were far more stringent against any kind of aid or trade with any organization in the country, regardless of who they might hurt.

Mugabe Modern Day Hitler

Edited December 12, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

No oil. No liberation.

That's the neocon slogan.

And unless it's a white heel on your neck - and your skin is a politically acceptable shade, don't bother the Left. They're more concerned about the plight of the puffins and penguins.

[LesterDC]

Yes, being empire means you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Get used to it

yes, quite true.. we just have to get over it and get in there when innocent people are being raped systematically

[White Doors]

No oil. No liberation.

That's the neocon slogan.

Aww... She is quoting her bumpersticker. lol

Well, off to etrade to go buy some yummy Serbian Oil stock...