Auto sector bailout

[Huston]

You can't force the market to buy cars...Norte American sales are down from a peak of 16.5 million units to about ten million. Who's going to buy the excess inventory if you maintain even current production levels?

Nope....but it sure makes sense to take it.

Agareed, people could barely afford cars when things where at their economic peak.. of course, inflation was improperly recorded, along with the GDP, well actually GDP is a red herring for NDP; where consumption is not factored in as a negative. Somehow consuption was deemed productive. This of course is a fraudulant market, and doomed to it obvious failure today.

[Mr.Canada]

The federal and Ontario governments will provide a lifeline worth about $3.3 billion for the struggling Canadian auto sector..../...

At any rate it's official.

Full story/Source

At any rate it's official.

This sounds much more reasonable to me. 20% of what the Americans are giving. That seems about right based on per capita. I just hope some meaningful strings are attached

Edited December 13, 2008 by Charles Anthony
merged thread; old OP title: "$3.5B to Canadian Auto Sector"

[Oleg Bach]

You can't force the market to buy cars...Norte American sales are down from a peak of 16.5 million units to about ten million. Who's going to buy the excess inventory if you maintain even current production levels?

Nope....but it sure makes sense to take it.

If you can cajole them into partaking in a rediculous war and spend billions on supplies and man power - It should not be a problem to force Americans and Canadians to buy a damned Ford. Cops use Fords - They are strong and they hold up and look pretty good. Japan can kiss butt - they are not in any position to continue to "Force" anyone to continue to consume their product...They have enough of our money. As for the excess inventory....dump it or store it, but dump it here at cut rate prices....Then allow the parts industry to continue as the machines brake down as designed. What's Japan going to do if we cut them off? Nuke us? We do the nuking around here historically..call this protectionism....so what! Comes a time when a nation has to protect it's turf - It's gang warfare out there and we owe nothing to anyone. Let Asian product rot and be done with their so-called superiour last for every product.

[Oleg Bach]

Lets see if the Americans will follow and do the right thing? I suspect that Canadians love Canada more than Americans love America. The Amercans constantly and relentlessly double cross their own people - let them learn from us - that national family comes first - not gold plated toilets and Lear jets.

[Huston]

If you can cajole them into partaking in a rediculous war and spend billions on supplies and man power - It should not be a problem to force Americans and Canadians to buy a damned Ford. Cops use Fords - They are strong and they hold up and look pretty good. Japan can kiss butt - they are not in any position to continue to "Force" anyone to continue to consume their product...They have enough of our money. As for the excess inventory....dump it or store it, but dump it here at cut rate prices....Then allow the parts industry to continue as the machines brake down as designed. What's Japan going to do if we cut them off? Nuke us? We do the nuking around here historically..call this protectionism....so what! Comes a time when a nation has to protect it's turf - It's gang warfare out there and we owe nothing to anyone. Let Asian product rot and be done with their so-called superiour last for every product.

Why do you need to be so agressive? It is like you know you are wrong, you you have to resort to bullying to create a red herring.

The U.S. automakers are not in trouble because of Toyota, they are trouble because money is worthless!

[Mr.Canada]

The Tories are showing something else in this effort as well. They are proving that they can work with Liberals and are willing to work together. This will be used as proof of that if the three amigos choose to vote down the budget. This is going to help the Tories win some 416 seats next election.

[Donaill]

Yes, it is good and bad news. I have been watching the news and reading much about this since it started. It seems that, lately, the barbs have been aimed at the workers themselves. The CEOs and others saying that part of the problem is the high wages of the workers. Anyone in their right mind knows that the wages they earn are not a big part of the cost of a vehicle. If wages were the guiding posts of the cost for a vehicle than execs would not have been getting multi-million dollar hand offs and bonuses.

I see part of the problem being that the Big 3 did not keep up with technology. While they were trying to figure out how to put a DVD player in our vans or sat radio, Honda, Toyota and Hyundai were figuring out how to build more fuel efficient cars.

This is part of the world economic collapse. It has as much to do with mega-corporate greed as it would a workers desire to have a fair wage and good benefits. We get punished because we have to compete against corrupt and uncaring countries, such as China where safety amd medical concerns of workers is just a byword. WE punish ourselves by allowing jobs to be shipped off to these countries with no strings attatched.

[Oleg Bach]

Everyone likes a good fight especially if they are bored with their lives. All parties are starting to realize that we area all in the same boat - mindless partizanship will lesson as the lesson kicks in - work together or perish. These are highly unusual times and the old way of conducting Parliment with overly enlarged egos and personal political ambition will be gone soon. If the government does not get it's act together...there will be no Canada and no jobs for them - I hope they understand this soon - This is very serious. The globalist vultures are waiting in the wings.

[ToadBrother]

If you can cajole them into partaking in a rediculous war and spend billions on supplies and man power - It should not be a problem to force Americans and Canadians to buy a damned Ford. Cops use Fords - They are strong and they hold up and look pretty good. Japan can kiss butt - they are not in any position to continue to "Force" anyone to continue to consume their product...They have enough of our money. As for the excess inventory....dump it or store it, but dump it here at cut rate prices....Then allow the parts industry to continue as the machines brake down as designed. What's Japan going to do if we cut them off? Nuke us? We do the nuking around here historically..call this protectionism....so what! Comes a time when a nation has to protect it's turf - It's gang warfare out there and we owe nothing to anyone. Let Asian product rot and be done with their so-called superiour last for every product.

Japan makes the cars most of us want to buy. There's a reason the Big Three have been losing market share despite every attempt to undermine the imports, and that's because the Asian automakers produce cars that are popular in North America.

All your doing is suggesting that we continue to prop up an unresponsive industry that has for so long enjoyed the partial protectionism already in place.

Like I said before, if I was in charge, I'd be negotiating the takeover of Chrysler and GM by Asian automakers. I think Ford can withstand this period, but the other two, well, they've been lurching back and forth horribly *long* before the current economic crisis, and I think loaning them money is simply throwing good money after bad. Better to simply take them over as the US government has essentially done with a number of financial institutions. We can better secure the taxpayer cash by a takeover than by loaning money to guys who are justifying it with the claim that they'll be out of money by the end of the month. I may not be a financial whiz, but if I was a loan's officer, and someone came in and said "I need to borrow a heap load of cash or I'll be bankrupt in thirty days", I wouldn't be too keen to sign a cheque.

What's more, they seem little interested in changing their product lines. I read an interview with Chrysler's president where he got kind of testy when the interviewer asked whether he would accept guidance from the government on what to sell and where to take development.

[Donaill]

Like I said before... Gas milage now equals $$$ for the builders. Why buy a Ford when you can buy a Volvo with better fuel milage and a higher safety rating?

[whowhere]

Like I said before... Gas milage now equals $$$ for the builders. Why buy a Ford when you can buy a Volvo with better fuel milage and a higher safety rating?

huh?? Ford owns volvo!!! http://www.auto123.com/en/news/car-news/fo...vo?artid=103298

[Smallc]

Like I said before... Gas milage now equals $$$ for the builders. Why buy a Ford when you can buy a Volvo with better fuel millage and a higher safety rating?

Wow....ummm, first, Ford owns Volvo. Second, Ford, with Volvo, has the best safety rating of any company.

Ford also has the most fuel efficient full size truck, CUV, in a few weeks, midsized car, and midsize hybrid. They also have the most fuel efficient SUV in the Ford escape hybrid. People really need to learn the facts about Ford and GM.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Smallc

[Oleg Bach]

I was attempting to put a possitive and hopeful spin on the situation - it was fanceful and idealist, I suppose. If the director was "fiesty" and to arrogant to take governmental direction then that is not much of a director. The cold reality is this - There should be re-tooling of our plants in part..gear some of them to produce attractive and comfortable high speed trains. The Don Valley Park Way was obsolete on completion years ago - this corridor is perfect to recieve a rail line of high quality. It's ready to go. There are other corridors all though and around our urban centres also ready to go.

Can a car executive be creative enough and does he or she have the will to build other products that fit the times? Probably not - so they are also ready to go. Look at our grid lock and imagine the millions of cars standing at a stand still - then imagine each car as a burning cotton towel soaked in oil...It's stunning when you see that the real purpose of our workers is to burn fuel at a stand still. Each auto has the horse power if geared properly to move 60 people not one...hate to admit it - but we are car-ed to death..we will need trucks - and limited personal traveling hybreds...but we are up to our eyeballs in cars - domestic and from Japan - Germany etc. The money should be used for re-tooling and moderization of attitude is a must. In the meantime - the workers must be sustained and protected - The demize of the industry as we know it is imminent no matter what - we are just prolonging the pain...and the big boys might just take the bailout money ane make sure their retirement is comfortable at our expense and suffering.

[ToadBrother]

Wow....ummm, first, Ford owns Volvo. Second, Ford, with Volvo, has the best safety rating of any company.

Ford also has the most fuel efficient full size truck, CUV, large car (city, GM has the best highway), in a few weeks, midsized car, and midsize hybrid. They also have the most fuel efficient SUV in the Ford escape hybrid. People really need to learn the facts about Ford and GM.

This is rather like saying "Our 800lb gorilla eats ten less bananas a day than your 800lb gorilla." Bragging up fuel efficiency on vehicles that are inherently gas guzzlers doesn't exactly fill me with warm fuzzies.

[Topaz]

Do you think that NA will except having ONLY small cars like Europe? I think its good to have one when the gas is high but when the prices came down there were people out there buying med and large autos. My neighbour just bought a med size, got a deal for a GM and dealers are making deals to get rid of them.

[Smallc]

The final EPA numbers are still being calculated, but Ford is claiming that the Fusion will beat the current class leading Camry by at least 2-3 mpg across all model variants. Based on the performance of the hybrid, we're willing to give Ford the benefit of the doubt on this one.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/13/first-d...10-ford-fusion/

The Fusion is also a top safety pick and has the best reliability of any midsize car.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Smallc

[ToadBrother]

Do you think that NA will except having ONLY small cars like Europe? I think its good to have one when the gas is high but when the prices came down there were people out there buying med and large autos. My neighbour just bought a med size, got a deal for a GM and dealers are making deals to get rid of them.

Gas ain't gonna stay cheap forever. These prices will probably last through 2009, which ought to be the deepest part of this recession/depression whatever you want to call it. After that, and particularly if the predictions that 2011 is the year we start to see recovery, with China, INdia and the other Asian tigers starting to chew fossil fuels again, watch the prices rise.

I wouldn't to own one of the Big Three's gas guzzlers then, but hey, vhat the heck!

[Smallc]

This is rather like saying "Our 800lb gorilla eats ten less bananas a day than your 800lb gorilla." Bragging up fuel efficiency on vehicles that are inherently gas guzzlers doesn't exactly fill me with warm fuzzies.

Look up the numbers on fueleconomy.gov. You may see a different picture than your imagining. Oh, and midsized cars and hybrids are gas guzzlers? I think you just want to hate Detroit for the sake of hating it.

Edited December 13, 2008 by Smallc

[Oleg Bach]

This is rather like saying "Our 800lb gorilla eats ten less bananas a day than your 800lb gorilla." Bragging up fuel efficiency on vehicles that are inherently gas guzzlers doesn't exactly fill me with warm fuzzies.

Efficency is the most parroted term in these regards. Fly over our cities and look down - no matter what you do - that crawling mess can never - be described as efficent. No matter how much the emmissions factor is improved...you still have millions of heat producing machines wrapped around a human being like a bionic addition to the human body. We simply can not continue sitting in a machine with music playing chatting on phones about nothing - on our way to push buttons on computers - generating nothing of real value or wealth...If we are to continue this game - The transport of useless human beings doing nothing must be improved....and GM - had better understand that they are killing us with their love...

[Mr.Canada]

Canadiaqn auto bailout agreement between the Federal Tories and Provincial Liberals Source

3.5B bailout package. 20% of American package, seems about right to me.

The Tories are showing a lot of cooperation when working with the provinces, even if they are natural enemies. If the Separtist Coalition votes down the government in January Harper can point to this as a great triumph of cooperation.

[Topaz]

Efficency is the most parroted term in these regards. Fly over our cities and look down - no matter what you do - that crawling mess can never - be described as efficent. No matter how much the emmissions factor is improved...you still have millions of heat producing machines wrapped around a human being like a bionic addition to the human body. We simply can not continue sitting in a machine with music playing chatting on phones about nothing - on our way to push buttons on computers - generating nothing of real value or wealth...If we are to continue this game - The transport of useless human beings doing nothing must be improved....and GM - had better understand that they are killing us with their love...

I understand were you're coming from but the people who live in the country,especially, would have a harder way to go if they didn't have an auto. Are we to go back to the horse and carriage days? How about all us ride motorcycle? No, this society couldn't function without the car.

[Oleg Bach]

I understand were you're coming from but the people who live in the country,especially, would have a harder way to go if they didn't have an auto. Are we to go back to the horse and carriage days? How about all us ride motorcycle? No, this society couldn't function without the car.

Of course rural life is auto-dependent...I did not say get rid of cars! Just get them under control..In the city they are status symbols - and should be limited...Our makers build good pick up trucks...and good family vehicles...but to take up the bulk of manufacturing and transform it to where it is needed is important in todays world...cities have to be re-tooled in general..we have no choice...In the summer they become death traps and are the heat becomes unbareable. The air is almost unuseable. I am not a mayor Miller type that wants to ban the gun and car ...just get the attitude changed - public transport stinks. It is slow and uncomforable...not to mention energy inefficent....I took my first Go-train ride...it was good and worked well....BUT I see the trains crossing Queen Street East in Toronto - full at the end and begining of every day - then I see them traveling back and forth EMPTY...all day long - tons of fuel wasted..not to mention millions in needless maintenance of these big machines...it's not the machine that is inefficent persay - it's us...We need more brain power a less granting of contracts to private enterprise - that intentionally waste - I would fire the directors of Go Transit...for wasting billions.

[whowhere]

You can't force the market to buy cars...Norte American sales are down from a peak of 16.5 million units to about ten million. Who's going to buy the excess inventory if you maintain even current production levels?

Like a crack wh#$% doesn't know when to call it quits. I don't Canada auto workers and politicians are getting it. The world financial tsunami is because the credit market was an elaborate ponzi scheme propogated by wall street. Where are all these investment banks now?? Gone, Gone, with the Likes of Enron and all the hedge funds with them. Who is going bring back the credit scam??

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOBody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Canada go ahead and throw money into the abyss. What's going to happen when all these cars are manufactured and nobody is buying them because they are shit cars compared to what Nissan, Toyota, and Honda are offering now. They are going to be sitting and the inventory is going to build. Then what? Crush Them??

Very Environmentally Friendly

Listen To the US Politicians!!! NO NO NO NO NO NO NO to Auto Bailout. If Canada is throwing money into the mix it has to mean Design and Engineering Jobs. We all know not likely so kiss the 3 Billion Good Bye along with mass job losses anyway.

[Oleg Bach]

Not a peep out of guys like Frank at Magna - I am sure he will get a cut of the bail out - but....no mention of keeping the toss away employees... I guess Frank can keep his private golf course and Bill Clinton can come up and golf with his Canadian buddies. Having said that - the economic crisis has rendered ALL of us as equal - the rich have no real money - and the poor have no real money. But -------------------------I guess we love our rich and want to keep them high and dry and happy - Just wish they loved us...I don't see Frank Stronach sending out bail out money to his workers who he is disposing of like Mexican peasants.

[bush_cheney2004]

....Canada go ahead and throw money into the abyss. What's going to happen when all these cars are manufactured and nobody is buying them because they are shit cars compared to what Nissan, Toyota, and Honda are offering now. They are going to be sitting and the inventory is going to build. Then what? Crush Them??

The Japanese automakers are feeling the pain too, and would not survive in North America if the parts supply chain dries up. Mazda and Nissan were already hurting before this. There use to be a long wait to buy a Prius...and a stiff price premium...but not anymore.

They will just reduce the number of work shifts and furlough workers, even in the non-union right-to-work states.

I never thought having lived through the 1970's was an important experience (for perspective). This too will pass.