25$ oil and the effect on Tar Sands development

[blueblood]

I know you're not a separatist, you were one of the few voices of reason on your side. I respect you as well, always have, not just for your anti-separation stance, but because you're quite level-headed.

As for Harper, my guess is (I just said this on another thread too), that he's going to come out feeling invincible now and really push far. The 'coalition' will have no choice but to push for no confidence, and it's not the end of anything yet. The coalition will either take place with someone else at the helm or there'll be another election when parliament resumes.

I'm starting to wonder if the LPC didn't pull this whole thing off covertly just to get Dion out of the picture before May.

As for Harper pushing, no argument there. he smells blood and is going for broke. Attack ads and brinkmanship will be the order of dress. It's safe to say there most likely will be an election.

It's probably going to take a few years for the Liberals to get their operation back in order, overhaul the party and become a force again. They'd be better off letting the tories get the majority and then completely overhauling themselves. If that happens even I would look at what they're selling. Right now they just stink too much of PET for my liking.

[blueblood]

Harper's only real concern is Harper. It was that way when he was a kid working for Jim Hawkes, it was that way when he was working with Preston Manning, and it's that way today. He managed to create this mythology that he's some sort of disinterested, detached technocrat, but he's a mean-spirited street fighter who gives no quarter and considers himself the final say on any matter. If there's a politician out there that he resembles the most; it is ironically Jean Chretien. They may be complete opposites ideologically, but they're both profoundly controlling and egomaniacal men who tolerate no dissent and are not interested in anyone else's opinions.

The Tories are married to him for now, but he should take heed. Mulroney was a tyrant in his day who ignored a fairly large chunk of his own party, and ultimately his actions lead to the destruction of the Progress Conservative Party. The same seems to be happening to the Liberals; Chretien's iron fist may have delivered him great political success, but has left the party bitterly divided and very much at risk of becoming a second-rate power in Parliament.

I think the Tories themselves have to ask the question "How many times do we want this guy to play chicken with us and our country". The Liberal MPs, save for a small group, largely let Chretien do what he wanted, and the party is going to pay for it for a long time.

Which is why I think 2-3 years into the alledged next tory majority, Harper will be ousted by party brass. Harper would be unelectable as an incumbant majority Prime Minister with a potentially overhauled Liberal party due to form government.

[BC_chick]

Harper's only real concern is Harper. It was that way when he was a kid working for Jim Hawkes, it was that way when he was working with Preston Manning, and it's that way today. He managed to create this mythology that he's some sort of disinterested, detached technocrat, but he's a mean-spirited street fighter who gives no quarter and considers himself the final say on any matter. If there's a politician out there that he resembles the most; it is ironically Jean Chretien. They may be complete opposites ideologically, but they're both profoundly controlling and egomaniacal men who tolerate no dissent and are not interested in anyone else's opinions.

The Tories are married to him for now, but he should take heed. Mulroney was a tyrant in his day who ignored a fairly large chunk of his own party, and ultimately his actions lead to the destruction of the Progress Conservative Party. The same seems to be happening to the Liberals; Chretien's iron fist may have delivered him great political success, but has left the party bitterly divided and very much at risk of becoming a second-rate power in Parliament.

I think the Tories themselves have to ask the question "How many times do we want this guy to play chicken with us and our country". The Liberal MPs, save for a small group, largely let Chretien do what he wanted, and the party is going to pay for it for a long time.

That was a fantastic analysis.

[craiger]

Immigrants have no capital and no desire to start up. Who's buying up farmland? Other farmers? I don't want fire hose spending on useless programs. However I am a tax payer that pays large taxes, I want my tax dollars working for me. Farmers are also some of the biggest contributors to the economy and 1 in 3 jobs is related to the ag industry. If you don't like farmers, you are more then welcome to not go to the grocery store and can grow/shoot your own food. If you want to pay through the nose for imported food then have at it. We have immigrants who can do oil field work for way less cheap, shall we open the door wide open? We also spend all of the money we get which helps out everybody.

Well you have been quet frank in the oilfield workers who get paid way to much, who have benifits like your crops it is a natural resource. same goes with your industry, its albertan's. So how can you sit on your high horse and condemn us who make a honest living, when i am sure you live well within your means also. If you wish me the worste I wish you the worste also, as we all know cheap labour and the corperate elite can do it a hell of allot cheaper than we can. Some day you will take that offer on your land! and no generation past you will prosper with it in the global market.

You wish me bad i wish You bad or your kids also .buddy! dog eat dog right! no solidaridy!

Edited December 5, 2008 by craiger

[ToadBrother]

As for Harper pushing, no argument there. he smells blood and is going for broke. Attack ads and brinkmanship will be the order of dress. It's safe to say there most likely will be an election.

It's probably going to take a few years for the Liberals to get their operation back in order, overhaul the party and become a force again. They'd be better off letting the tories get the majority and then completely overhauling themselves. If that happens even I would look at what they're selling. Right now they just stink too much of PET for my liking.

They may smell of Trudeau, but they certainly aren't acting like him. First of all, whatever Trudeau's flaws (and they're far more numerous than a lot folks seem to think), he would have plotted a return to majority rather than doing business with separatists. He would also have given someone like Harper a run for his money. The one thing I remember about PET was that the Tories fluctuated between awe and terror during the height of his power. The Liberals haven't had anybody like that since, and Dion strikes about as much terror in his opponents as a defanged poodle.

[BC_chick]

As for Harper pushing, no argument there. he smells blood and is going for broke. Attack ads and brinkmanship will be the order of dress. It's safe to say there most likely will be an election.

It's probably going to take a few years for the Liberals to get their operation back in order, overhaul the party and become a force again. They'd be better off letting the tories get the majority and then completely overhauling themselves. If that happens even I would look at what they're selling. Right now they just stink too much of PET for my liking.

I know, I'm coming to the same conclusion. It just may very well be time to give Harper his majority and let the LPC get their act together. I'm a firm believer that in a true democracy no one party should ever have too much power for too long. It's as good as any a time for a real change of hands.

I just fear what the landscape will be like by the time his tenure is up given Harper's ideological beliefs. But who knows, maybe it's his turn to destroy the country to in a conservative fashion (as I'm sure many of you probably think the Liberals destroyed the country in a liberal way) before we can fully appreciate the Libs again.

And no, it's not the tanks on the street scary scary scary rhetoric. I really do think Harper's priorities are way out of line with most of the country, including mine.

After the last few days, more so than ever.

[blueblood]

I know, I'm coming to the same conclusion. It just may very well be time to give Harper his majority and let the LPC get their act together. I'm a firm believer that in a true democracy no one party should ever have too much power for too long. It's as good as any a time for a real change of hands.

I just fear what the landscape will be like by the time his tenure is up given Harper's ideological beliefs. But who knows, maybe it's his turn to destroy the country to in a conservative fashion (as I'm sure many of you probably think the Liberals destroyed the country in a liberal way) before we can fully appreciate the Libs again.

And no, it's not the tanks on the street scary scary scary rhetoric. I really do think Harper's priorities are way out of line with most of the country, including mine.

After the last few days, more so than ever.

Politicians don't change the country, the people and the times do. Trudeau happened to become PM during a time of radical change on the North American country. I didn't like Trudeau's gov't policies. The landscape won't be too much different. I don't think a politician can have that much sway over a population to influence culture (IMO Quebec's problem) A tory majority would either be one or two terms. People are fickle and will in time grant the Liberals a majority again. People are also smarter than given credit for, a politician doesn't have much influence how they live their lives.

[White Doors]

Don't confuse a setback with defeat... end of oil energy is defeat whereas what we saw for back East is a setback.

You do know that Oil is used for other things than energy, right?

[White Doors]

You're free to do whatever you want as am I. It's the losers that want to break this country up that really get me mad.

So you must be very angry at the Liberals and NDP signing a deal with the Bloc then yes?

Or is the truth that you don't like right wing people and are just wrapping yourself in the flag in an attempt to disguise it.

I vote on the latter.

[guyser]

I believe it's the ass you kick might be the ass you kiss. Ontario is learning this lesson the hard way. You are more than entitled to laugh your butt off, I laughed at Ontario when shit hit the fan.

I am disappointed in your post. I wouldnt put you in the category with the idiots spouting schadenfreude.

Has Ont gone public and whined about the current eco crisis in Ont? I dont think so. (apart from people telling Flaherty to shut up) Have we cried we want all our money back (far more than all provinces combined), or how we have shared the wealth since Laurier was a baby to all Canadian provinces?

Nope, in fact this province is humbled and embarassed since we elected an idiot who wont do anything, and now we are getting some money from transfer payments , even though it is a mere pittance.

[guyser]

Politicians don't change the country, the people and the times do.

One look at the landscape of America today vs Clinton or Reagan times suggest to me they can and do change the country.

The polarization of peoples on the left and right has grown stronger and more engrained.

[bush_cheney2004]

....The polarization of peoples on the left and right has grown stronger and more engrained.

Compared to what? When? How?

[JerrySeinfeld]

And if I sound mean, I really wasn't this way until these last few days. Hearing and seeing everything I did about picking up the marbles and going home when things don't go their way... I think a little humble pie might do that province a little good.

Humble pie for what? For financing the country? For constantly being beat up by the "Bloc Torontois" (ie. Quebec and Toronto)?

How can you suggest a wealthy, huge net contributor to Canada's finances, province who wants some control over it's own destiny...how can you suggest they need some humble pie?

Meantime the ogre middle brother, Quebec, smashes down the household door, pronounces it's grievances, how it is "unhappy" and "different", demands whatever it wants and always gets it for decades on end?

But no. It's ALBERTA thast needs the humble pie.

WHat colour is the sky in your world?

Edited December 5, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[guyser]

Humble pie for what? For financing the country?

Ontario ? Who else could you mean?

[Wilber]

Confederation may be looking good again.

As much as I know Canada in general is benefiting from Alberta's energy sources, in a sick way I'm looking forward to the day (which IS coming) where burning fossil-fuels will be regarded the same way as human-slavery, and Alberta has to put its hand out for an equalisation payment.

Ah, a poorer country is a better country. Isn't reducing everyone to the lowest common denominator one of the prime tenets of socialism.

"The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings. The inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of misery" WSC

As nearly 90% of the worlds energy requirements still come from fossil fuels, not to mention all the other products that are produced from them, you better get busy before the lights go out and your plastic water bottles disappear.

[Topaz]

Does everyone on here realize how we got here? Harper brought down a economic update that included strike rights taken away from the Fed. workers, which anyone would be peeved about and Harper knew it and the 1.95 being taken away from the political parties, knowing full well, hell would break out and IF he didn't that that shows how stupid he is but I know he knew and the big one, nothing to help the workers and families suffering jobs losses. Harper thought that the Libs would just take it and he found out they didn't just take and won't take anymore if the Conservative is going to act like this. Perhaps no in the west is with out a job or having hard times but there are Canadians that are, and with the way the Cons spent and spent and have nothing to show for it, were did the money go?? 15 Billion gone! Harper only had to have a confidence vote and we could gone on to an election, which I'm sure we are going to happen or if the GG granted the 3 parties to govern, at least , we would have the government working even though the Cons, would put up all the road blocks possible. Oct. /09 would be a election day and what the 3 parties did or didn't do would either help the Conservative win back the PMO or lose it but the Canadians in need would get the help. I really don't care who is in the PMO but they better take care of this country the right away and I can't see where Harper is!

[Wilber]

We got here because of a worldwide financial crisis and unprecedented commodity prices. You give politicians far too much credit.