SHOULD Canada break up?

[White Doors]

Those Dern Rednecks done outfoxed the left wing again.

[guyser]

Gee. what an intelligent post. Such well constructed arguments... LOL.

Of which you cannot refute.

It was simple and direct, yet you cant refute.

So where do you want to live?

[kimmy]

What are the benefits to the west staying in Canada.

Still waiting....

3 words.

Rick

Mercer

Report.

huh? huh?

-k

[Alberta_Blue]

Of which you cannot refute.

It was simple and direct, yet you cant refute.

So where do you want to live?

i want to live in a canada where french liberals (who are ex-bloc) combined with the bloc combined with a power hungry socialist ISN'T running our country into an economic hardship... i want someone with a vision and will be conservative and sound with our hard earned tax paying dollars, and not fund ridiculous, unneccessary programs, and cut spending where it doesn't need to be spent in such turmoil as we are going through now, and will continue to go through until the US can short their sh*t out.

i want to live in a Canada where the west will have a voice that will be heard, not always agreed too and followed, but heard and comprised, and work in a collaborative effort for all canadians..

where i see the liberals and the coalition taking us at this point in our lives is through the dirt and ruining everything we've built for their own power, and only acknowledge their needs and wants without taking considerations into anyone else

and unfortunately, "anyone else" is the West and all of our resources... you take our resources, you take our money, you take you take you take and you won't take our advice on how to govern a country... well that my friends, to you whom oppose the conservatives and oppose the western brothers and sisters of Canada, you my friends deserve a big, friendly, F U

wake up and smell the coffee, you've (the east) been heard all of our canadians lives out with ignorance to the West, its about time we stood up for ourselves and our rights and our way of life, and if this is what it takes, then so be, I for one will be all for it

[ToadBrother]

i want to live in a Canada where the west will have a voice that will be heard, not always agreed too and followed, but heard and comprised, and work in a collaborative effort for all canadians..

Can you explain how having a minority Tory government that intentionally goads the Opposition and then has to flee to the Governor General to protect itself from the inevitable lashback amounts to "compromise"?

[guyser]

i want to live in a canada where french liberals (who are ex-bloc) combined with the bloc combined with a power hungry socialist ISN'T running our country into an economic hardship... i want someone with a vision and will be conservative and sound with our hard earned tax paying dollars, and not fund ridiculous, unneccessary programs, and cut spending where it doesn't need to be spent in such turmoil as we are going through now, and will continue to go through until the US can short their sh*t out.

Then we agree on that. But my dissastification comes from , a- our current PM spent money needlessly and stupidly wooing the Que vote, and that money we all need. One would thgink he were Liberal.

i want to live in a Canada where the west will have a voice that will be heard, not always agreed too and followed, but heard and comprised, and work in a collaborative effort for all canadians..

I do too. But from some of the western posters here that would mean "do it our way or else".

where i see the liberals and the coalition taking us at this point in our lives is through the dirt and ruining everything we've built for their own power, and only acknowledge their needs and wants without taking considerations into anyone else

Politics makes strange bedfellows, and that is all this is . No one, not harper or the rest of them are above this. We know in 2004 Harper planned the same thing. It will always suck for those that support the people in power, but it is hardly new.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Mark Steyn in classic form:

Now six weeks later, there’s been a backroom deal between the liberals, who are sort of the soft left party, the New Democratic Party, who are the hard left party, the socialists, and the Bloc Québécois, who are the secessionist party, to in effect remove the government from the Tory Party, and install themselves as what I called a pantomime horse comprised of three rear ends, which is the problem here. I mean, you’ve got an incoherent, soft left, socialist, secessionist coalition that would be attempting to run the country, and would do very little, actually, except divert billions of dollars in patronage appointments to their own particular obsessions.

and

And so the question is what have they offered the secessionist party in Quebec to get them on board for eighteen months? And given that the secessionist party in Quebec is essentially a giant shakedown operation just to empty English Canada’s wallet and dump it in the socialist basket case province of Quebec, the obvious answer to that is money, that they’re going to be transferring billions and billions of dollars from the functioning parts of Canada, like Alberta, into the basket case province of Quebec.

and my personal favorite:

MS: Well, what’s happened is that the Prime Minister went to see her. This woman, by the way, is an affirmative action appointment. She’s a very attractive woman, who used to host pro-Castro documentaries on the CBC. ..it’s funny you should say that, because when she was appointed, she’s a very pleasant woman, a Montreal journalist, and somebody said if we have to have a mediocre hack, mediocre Montreal hack as acting head of state, why can’t we have Mark Steyn? At least we’d get a laugh.

MS: And I was rather hurt. That was one reason, you know, because I thought why is the idea of me as governor general so self-evidently risible, yet the idea of this affirmative action, Castro documentary maker apparently perfectly routine. I think that tells you a lot about Canada.

Freaking hilarious. When reality is too ridiculous, why not laugh.

Edited December 5, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[JerrySeinfeld]

3 words.

Rick

Mercer

Report.

huh? huh?

-k

You're funny, Kimmy.

That's actually the best answer so far. Regretfully , that's not saying much for the other responses, however. Nuttin' wrong with a bit o' humor though.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I do too. But from some of the western posters here that would mean "do it our way or else".

That's a strawman you built up to tear back down. Give me one example...ONE example where the west has EVER gotten "it's way." What a joke.

Politics makes strange bedfellows, and that is all this is .

Dis be true. But let's please remember that next time somone tries to sound intelligent by announcing the obvious: "Saddam used to be an american ALLY!!" ooooooh ahhhhhhh.

[HistoryBuff44]

And what is this "PROBLEM"?

I think one problem is that the most basic fundamental of democracy is missing in Canada, proper representation in ottawa. last i read there were many seats that should be shifted from the east to the west.

[Alta4ever]

I think one problem is that the most basic fundamental of democracy is missing in Canada, proper representation in ottawa. last i read there were many seats that should be shifted from the east to the west.

To bad trudeau enshired the number minimum seats for the east in the constitution.

the not withstanding clause needs to be used daily by the west.

[kimmy]

You're funny, Kimmy.

That's actually the best answer so far. Regretfully , that's not saying much for the other responses, however. Nuttin' wrong with a bit o' humor though.

To attempt a more serious answer...

During the boom times, Alberta has counted on other Canadians to come on along and join in. Without the help of workers from the east, things couldn't have grown the way they have.

It works both ways... Albertans who aren't part of the energy industry or trades have been able to go to other parts of the country when there were better opportunities elsewhere than at home.

We benefit from trade agreements that Canada has made, and we benefit from unhindered access to labor and transportation and resources within Canada.

And although your views are no doubt rooted in current dollars-and-cents thinking, and although it might sound trite, it has to be said anyway that there are sentimental and historical reasons why most Albertans continue to reject separation.

Alberta's history with the federal government might be pretty rocky, but it hasn't been all bad. The federal government did support the province when it was the poorest in confederation. It did build the railway. It did recruit hundreds of thousands of immigrants to build the prairies. While Ottawa's involvement in energy usually makes westerners cringe, Diefenbaker's National Oil Plan was a great nation-building program at a time when the country needed nation-building.

The same arguments apply, to varying degrees, to the other western provinces. All might have historical grievances with the federal government, and some might have have a current dollars-and-cents motive to want to leave, but it's not just about dollars and cents.

-k

[kimmy]

I do too. But from some of the western posters here that would mean "do it our way or else".

I'd like to have a Canada where the kind of all-out assault on the energy industry we saw from 4 of the 5 major parties during the election would be recognized to be just as outrageous as Kimmy's National Electricity Program.

-k

[guyser]

I'd like to have a Canada where the kind of all-out assault on the energy industry we saw from 4 of the 5 major parties during the election would be recognized to be just as outrageous as Kimmy's National Electricity Program.

-k

OPG is a crown corporation and supplier of all Ont's power needs.

[JerrySeinfeld]

To attempt a more serious answer...

During the boom times, Alberta has counted on other Canadians to come on along and join in. Without the help of workers from the east, things couldn't have grown the way they have.

It works both ways... Albertans who aren't part of the energy industry or trades have been able to go to other parts of the country when there were better opportunities elsewhere than at home.

We benefit from trade agreements that Canada has made, and we benefit from unhindered access to labor and transportation and resources within Canada.

And although your views are no doubt rooted in current dollars-and-cents thinking, and although it might sound trite, it has to be said anyway that there are sentimental and historical reasons why most Albertans continue to reject separation.

Alberta's history with the federal government might be pretty rocky, but it hasn't been all bad. The federal government did support the province when it was the poorest in confederation. It did build the railway. It did recruit hundreds of thousands of immigrants to build the prairies. While Ottawa's involvement in energy usually makes westerners cringe, Diefenbaker's National Oil Plan was a great nation-building program at a time when the country needed nation-building.

The same arguments apply, to varying degrees, to the other western provinces. All might have historical grievances with the federal government, and some might have have a current dollars-and-cents motive to want to leave, but it's not just about dollars and cents.

-k

You make some good points. But take a look at countries in the mid-east - who are constantly able to attract people from all over the world to work in the oil industry. Alberta has been successful at attracting mexicans for construction jobs as another example. Labour, as with capital, should be fluid and easily able to move. That's actually part of the problem with Canada's ideals as it sits now: people look at "provinces" as if they are homeless people - when they are down on their luck we need to give them money. But it makes no sense to give a "province" (a peiec of land) welfare, when there are perfectly good paying jobs elsewhere in the country. People can move. Who says you have a god-given right to plant your ass wherever you want and expect the government to pay for it. Basic economics; go where the dough is!

I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that in a hypothetical new republic, that the border could easily still be porous enough for Newfies and others to come work and live in "Pacificalta" (working title haha) if they want to.

On your other point, I agree it hasn't been all bad and that there was a long time ago when the federal government actually briefly put money IN to Alberta. But wait a second. That's not necessarily a great reason to be part of confederation. A big part has to do with self-determination.

Imagine a heavy handed parent who, in your youth, helped you out with a bit of cash from time to time. I think we can all put ourselves in that place for a moment, and realize that, perhaps the odd cheque in time of need wasn't really worth being told what to do, and that independence is sometimes more important than someone holding a dollar over your nose making you jump.

It's not a great analogy, but you get the idea. I know I for one would be perfectly willing to risk some hard times from time to time if that's the price of liberty and self-determination.

Besides, the old "if you leave you'll have no one to take care of you in the bad times" suonds like famous last words before you grow a spine, walk out and never look back.

[Smallc]

I think one problem is that the most basic fundamental of democracy is missing in Canada, proper representation in ottawa. last i read there were many seats that should be shifted from the east to the west.

Your getting more seats, very soon. 2010 - 11 I think it is. Both BC and Alberta. Ontario is getting more too and in fact, they're being short changed by 15 - 20 with the changes. They should be getting 125 and they're only getting 110. I really wish that we could take seats away from SK and MK, and PEI and NB, and NS, and N & L and maybe that should be looked at, but right now, we can't take away, we can only add.

[BornAlbertan]

All I can say is that if you're contemplating leaving Canada, you never really cared about it in the first place and you don't understand how great Canada is.

I guess you could also say that Canada never really cared about the West (other than its money) and they are getting tired of waiting for them to.

[fellowtraveller]

We benefit from trade agreements that Canada has made, and we benefit from unhindered access to labor and transportation and resources within Canada.

Howzat?

Many trades and professions find it very difficult to work in other prpovinces. Teachers, for example, and nearly anything that needs accreditaion in Quebec. Outsiders are most defintiely not welcome.

[Smallc]

I guess you could also say that Canada never really cared about the West (other than its money) and they are getting tired of waiting for them to.

And I would disagree. You would see many Canadians campaigning against Alberta separatism if the subject really came up, and it would have little or nothing to do with money. I know I would be there.

[jdobbin]

Nobody, not one person, has yet to answer the question. WHat are the benefits?

Probably a greater amount of wealth, tighter immigration, a small military or very little military, fewer environmental controls, no RCMP, fewer regulations, private healthcare and younger population.

There are a detriments to all this too but people who want separation are probably not deterred by them.

[JerrySeinfeld]

I got this on line: new countries since 1990

Armenia

Azerbaijan

Belarus

Estonia

Georgia

Kazakhstan

Kyrgyzstan

Latvia

Lithuania

Moldova

Russia

Tajikistan

Turkmenistan

Ukraine

Uzbekistan

Former Yugoslavia

Yugoslavia dissolved in the early 1990s into five independent countries.

Bosnia and Herzegovina, February 29, 1992

Croatia, June 25, 1991

Macedonia (officially The Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia) declared independence on September 8, 1991 but wasn't recognized by the United Nations until 1993 and the United States and Russia in February of 1994

Serbia and Montenegro, (also known as the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia), April 17, 1992 (see below for separate Serbia and Montenegro entries)

Slovenia, June 25, 1991

March 21, 1990 - Namibia became independent of South Africa.

May 22, 1990 - North and South Yemen merged to form a unified Yemen.

October 3, 1990 - East Germany and West Germany merged to form a unified Germany after the fall of the Iron Curtain.

September 17, 1991 - The Marshall Islands was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.

September 17, 1991 - Micronesia, previously known as the Caroline Islands, became independent from the United States.

January 1, 1993 - The Czech Republic and Slovakia became independent nations when Czechoslovakia dissolved.

May 25, 1993 - Eritrea was a part of Ethiopia but seceded and gained independence.

October 1, 1994 - Palau was part of the Trust Territory of Pacific Islands (administered by the United States) and gained independence as a former colony.

May 20, 2002 - East Timor (Timor-Leste) declared independence from Portugal in 1975 but did not became independent from Indonesia until 2002.

June 3, 2006 - Montenegro was part of Serbia and Montenegro (also known as Yugoslavia) but gained independence after a referendum.

June 5, 2006 - Serbia became its own entity after Montenegro split.

Febraury 17, 2008 - Kosovo unilaterally declared independence from Serbia.

Given this MASSIVE trend toward independence and self-determination all around the world, I have a couple of questions:

1. If Palau, Iritria, Montenegro, Serbia, Kosovo, Micronesia, Croatia, Macedonia, East Timor, etc etc etc can separate, then why can't Quebec? This Quebec separatist movement has got to be the most futile in the earth's history. Basically everyone who wants to, is getting independence. But Quebec, in the biggest money shakedown in the history of consitutional politics, keeps "somehow" missing the mark - if ever so slightly. Always.

2. Why shouldn't Canada look at this trend a little more seriously.

Why should Quebec be in Canada? Or The West, for that matter. It seems obvious that these two regions would operate in greater peace and prosperity (well, the West, anyway) as independent nations.

Shouldn't we just follow this trend? Peaceful coexistence is still possible, and perhaps even more LIKELY if we were to reorganize and create some "friendly fences" between our neighbouring countries.

I think it's a great idea, a peaceful, friendly disbanding of this perverse nation.

Edited December 9, 2008 by Charles Anthony
merged thread; old OP title: "New Countries, Lots"

[JerrySeinfeld]

Probably a greater amount of wealth, tighter immigration, a small military or very little military, fewer environmental controls, no RCMP, fewer regulations, private healthcare and younger population.

There are a detriments to all this too but people who want separation are probably not deterred by them.

You're arguing my point.

And yes - there is a long laundry list if benefits FOR the West to separate. My question, which has only been addressed once so far in 8...count them EIGHT pages of dialogue, is what are the benefits to STAYING IN CANADA.

Seems to be a pretty slim list.

[jdobbin]

You're arguing my point.

And yes - there is a long laundry list if benefits FOR the West to separate. My question, which has only been addressed once so far in 8...count them EIGHT pages of dialogue, is what are the benefits to STAYING IN CANADA.

Seems to be a pretty slim list.

I was getting to that. The benefits to staying in Canada is a larger population base, an international reputation as an economic force in a variety of industries, a stable banking system, strong east west relations for families and business and alike. Ports on three coasts. A large industrial and manufacturing base, national healthcare, the Canada Pension Plan, the Canadian passport, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Supreme Court of Canada, a rich history and great future, Team Canada Hockey and a marvelous natural culture coast to coast.

[JerrySeinfeld]

Decent points. Here are my replies:

The benefits to staying in Canada is a larger population base

Only a benefit if they're not on the dole - an arguable point here in this country.

an international reputation as an economic force in a variety of industries

Reputation? I'd rather trade the reputation in for cold hard cash any day of the week. What industries, by the way? And please....PLEASE don't hurt your own ause by saying "Bombardier"....ick. And if you mention th auto industry I think I'll start laughing so hard my head will blow up. The auto industry in Ontario is a creation of the government. We could do the same thing if we were so stupid: erect big tariffs and force the "big 3" (if they even exist anymore hahahahahaha) to set up plants in Pacificalta.

a stable banking system

One very good point - but not insurmountable. Besides, if we separated it's not as if Royal, BNS, CIBC et. al. would roll up and leave.

strong east west relations for families and business and alike

Wouldn't disap[pear with independence.

Ports on three coasts

Decent point - might be some tariffs erected to move goods to halifax for shipping. BUt I'd rather pay a few tariffs than subsidize Ontario and Quebec for the rest of my life.

A large industrial and manufacturing base

Manufacturing is going to China. Forever. Give it up already, Ontario.

national healthcare

That would be our choice. If we did choose to nationlize, it would be superior due to our wealth.

the Canada Pension Plan

ugh. I think I just swallowed my own vomit.

the canadian passport

so? the norwegian passport. the trinidadian passport. the Alberta Passport....etc....

the Charter of Rights and Freedoms

The Pacificalta (working title haha) bill of rights.

the Supreme Court of Canada

The supreme court of Pacificalta

a rich history and great future

Rich? The country's constitution is 27 years old.

Team Canada Hockey

Great new rivalry between the two new teams.

and a marvelous natural culture coast to coast.

Culture doesn't go away with new boundaries. Same places. New names, new borders. Great new vacation plans!

Edited December 5, 2008 by JerrySeinfeld

[Alberta_Blue]

I was getting to that. The benefits to staying in Canada is a larger population base, an international reputation as an economic force in a variety of industries, a stable banking system, strong east west relations for families and business and alike. Ports on three coasts. A large industrial and manufacturing base, national healthcare, the Canada Pension Plan, the Canadian passport, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, the Supreme Court of Canada, a rich history and great future, Team Canada Hockey and a marvelous natural culture coast to coast.

gonna break this down a bit

1st) larger population base... we are making by just fine, and if we did split, we would have a lot of people immigrating or emigrating our way for jobs

2) international reputation... do you know any other premier in all of canada that meets with the president of the US? that goes to Europe to meet with their leaders?? i for one don't know of a single premier other than Klein and Stelmach that have done that

3) variety of industries... we have farming, forestry, oil & energy, and some manufacturing, but there is trading so we're ok

4) banking system... did you know that western banks are the only banks in all of canada that are still growing and showing profits?

5) east west relations... well, thats debateable depending who you talk too

5) ports... just need BC baby!!

as far as the rest of the issues, they are minor... we have the best health care in the country, thanks klein!! pension, can do our own, passports, do our own, rights and freedoms - we got provincial laws, sure we can make a few more, got lots of lawyers and judges out west too...

not trying to make excuses, but its evident that BC, AB, SK, MB could successfully separate and not have to rely 1 bit on the East for anything