Flaherty to slash public funding for federal parties

[noahbody]

If I was Harper, I'd make the point that the opposition parties seem to be incapable of tackling a simple task like party fundraising, yet they seem to think they could govern in times of a difficult economy.

[Smallc]

If I was Harper, I'd make the point that the opposition parties seem to be incapable of tackling a simple task like party fund raising, yet they seem to think they could govern in times of a difficult economy.

If I were Harper, I would have played a little nicer and been less of a hypocrite. He's saving about the same amount of money with the party financing cuts as he has cost with his larger cabinet. I had no problem with the larger cabinet, but now that he's playing political games in a time of crisis, I have a problem with his entire government.

[M.Dancer]

the removal of the ability for women to fight for their rights

how would that be accomplished?

[Vancouver King]

I hope not. There were plenty of other items in the ES that were intolerable, ie the removal of the right to strike, the removal of the ability for women to fight for their rights and the imaginary asset sales

And, of course, the complete absense of economic stimulus is the huge missing item. By itself it warrants defeat Monday but also has the built in advantage of 'covering' livid resentment against the govts attempt to destroy opposition parties.

Harper's smug neo-cons might end up on the opposition benches over this.

[Vancouver King]

If I was Harper, I'd make the point that the opposition parties seem to be incapable of tackling a simple task like party fundraising, yet they seem to think they could govern in times of a difficult economy.

Make the point to whom? The Commons? The Governor General? His own caucus?

Certainly not yet to the electorate with a looming coalition.

[M.Dancer]

And, of course, the complete absense of economic stimulus is the huge missing item.

Not by a long shot.

The government also said it is injecting $700-million into the capital base of government-owned banks in order to boost financing to exporters and small business.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/politics/home

[Smallc]

700 Million? Really? 700 Million?

[stignasty]

So Harper has removed the controversial vote subsidy from Monday's vote. Will this strategic backpedal now be enough?

If it is, it will make the opposition parties look pretty bad.

[jdobbin]

Changed his mind I guess:

Could be too late. Harper has shown that he wants to play brinkmanship. If Chretien and Broadbent can broker a deal, they will show Harper the door.

[jdobbin]

If it is, it will make the opposition parties look pretty bad.

I think the die is cast. Harper has been daring the Opposition to take him down. Shout coward across the floor too many times, someone is likely to stand up and say enough.

[Smallc]

I think the die is cast. Harper has been daring the Opposition to take him down. Shout coward across the floor too many times, someone is likely to stand up and say enough.

I agree. We could be facing a constitutional crisis.

[jdobbin]

Brinksmanship? Jdobbin, didn't you notice that the Opposition is NOT intending to bring down the Tories in order for the people do have another choice by means of an election?

That is entirely up to the Governor General. It was an option that Harper had to if he brought down Martin early. It is completely democratic is the majority of parties can get together and govern.

Harper has been daring the Opposition to do something and thinking they will back down. Well, this time they aren't and they can't act all shocked now. If the Governor General thinks an election is in accordance, then an election it is. But the system is set up for the Governor General to make a choice on asking the Opposition to form a government first.

No! Their intention is to put the Liberals in power by means of a coalition technicality!

Totally legal and acceptable. Maybe Harper can go to court like he usually does. I doubt it will work but there is no use whining about something that exists within our system to ensure back to back elections don't happen.

It is democratic despite what Harper's people say.

If the Governor General allows this then in my eyes in Canada democracy will be well and truly dead!

Sheer and utter baloney. You mean to tell me that the majority of parties in the House should be prevented from forming a government?

If the people don't want another election so quickly after the last one then at least they would have the opportunity to punish the Tories for causing it to happen. If they lose respect for the Opposition parties for seizing power with no election then perhaps there would be a similar price to be paid next election.

I'm betting that when the average Canadian realizes that the Opposition parties rely so heavily on public moneys because they can't get enough support from the average Canadian they will become totally disgusted with them!

The Tories can certainly make that claim. The Opposition has plenty of other issues to bring the government down in regards to the economy.

Many here might not believe this but I could at times see the day when once again I would vote Liberal, depending on who was running their show. If they try to seize power with a coalition coup I would be so disgusted and enraged that I could never see voting for them again!

I think Harper dug this hole for himself. We've had Tory supporters laughing and mocking Liberals for being pushovers and that the government had a defacto majority and would push through what they wanted and then destroy the Liberals as a party. Mere defeat was not good enough but absolute and complete destruction.

More than ever I believe Harper was going to call an election before the Liberals had a new leader and they were hoping that the new finance laws would put them in a position to do a lot of damage in the next months.

What they didn't count on was the economy where they seem to be floundering waiting for instructions from the U.S. all the while telling us that we will be major deficit.

When you take away the people's right to choose then you take away democracy, IMHO. And let no one make the claim that the majority of voters did not vote for Harper so therefore the Liberals can assume that the majority of Canadians support THEM! That's totally illogical. You could use the same argument to put Duceppe in as PM!

Democracy has spoken. By tradition, the party with the largest amounts of seats is asked to form the government. However, the option has always existed democratically to ask the Opposition to form a government if confidence has been lost.

I have to say that this proposed ploy is the most disgusting political move I have ever seen in my entire life! It doesn't just take the cake, it takes the entire bakery!

Bringing down Harper is one thing. Denying the people an election to grab power is quite another.

Raise your complaint with the Governor General and our Constitution. It has nothing to with the Opposition. They have always had the right to vote non-confidence. You seem to think they shouldn't or can't. That's antidemocratic.

[Vancouver King]

I agree. We could be facing a constitutional crisis.

Barely a month has transpired since voters treked to the polls. It is incumbent on the GG to consider options other than another election if a month old govt falls.

[jdobbin]

I think that if he called an election that quick he would be punished by voters. The only people who can force an election are the united opposition.

You see: I've heard that argument and it is just not credible. Harper would blame the Opposition for calling an election even if he was getting his way. It would be cynical but he would have the right under Constitution to seek a new mandate. The Governor General might have a hard time ruling against and election in April after half a year.

A few months? So what? Any spending "incentives" to boost the economy would take many months to roll out and many months to have the slightest impact anyway. Would it make you feel better if they announced something now, even though it won't actually be rolled out until April? Because I absolutely guarantee that nothing the opposition-turned-government announces will be rolled out before April at the very earliest, and most likely not until considerably later.

Our system runs a lot faster than that and the market certainly responds faster than that.

[jdobbin]

If I was Harper, I'd make the point that the opposition parties seem to be incapable of tackling a simple task like party fundraising, yet they seem to think they could govern in times of a difficult economy.

And this will stop a confidence vote how?

[Smallc]

Barely a month has transpired since voters treked to the polls. It is incumbent on the GG to consider options other than another election if a month old govt falls.

I agree with that, but It couldn't come at a worse time. Economic crisis, lame duck Liberal leader, etc.

[Vancouver King]

I agree with that, but It couldn't come at a worse time. Economic crisis, lame duck Liberal leader, etc.

To cinch the GG's decision in favor of a coalition, Liberals must jettison Dion immediately. Liberal Party rules say in an emergency - ie. current leader's untimely resignation - a caucus vote will quickly designate an interim leader. The stickler here is that as of now Dion has yet to see the benefit of going sooner than May, 2009. This could change over the next few days.

[Wild Bill]

That is entirely up to the Governor General. It was an option that Harper had to if he brought down Martin early. It is completely democratic is the majority of parties can get together and govern.

Harper has been daring the Opposition to do something and thinking they will back down. Well, this time they aren't and they can't act all shocked now. If the Governor General thinks an election is in accordance, then an election it is. But the system is set up for the Governor General to make a choice on asking the Opposition to form a government first.

Totally legal and acceptable. Maybe Harper can go to court like he usually does. I doubt it will work but there is no use whining about something that exists within our system to ensure back to back elections don't happen.

It is democratic despite what Harper's people say.

Sheer and utter baloney. You mean to tell me that the majority of parties in the House should be prevented from forming a government?

The Tories can certainly make that claim. The Opposition has plenty of other issues to bring the government down in regards to the economy.

I think Harper dug this hole for himself. We've had Tory supporters laughing and mocking Liberals for being pushovers and that the government had a defacto majority and would push through what they wanted and then destroy the Liberals as a party. Mere defeat was not good enough but absolute and complete destruction.

More than ever I believe Harper was going to call an election before the Liberals had a new leader and they were hoping that the new finance laws would put them in a position to do a lot of damage in the next months.

What they didn't count on was the economy where they seem to be floundering waiting for instructions from the U.S. all the while telling us that we will be major deficit.

Democracy has spoken. By tradition, the party with the largest amounts of seats is asked to form the government. However, the option has always existed democratically to ask the Opposition to form a government if confidence has been lost.

Raise your complaint with the Governor General and our Constitution. It has nothing to with the Opposition. They have always had the right to vote non-confidence. You seem to think they shouldn't or can't. That's antidemocratic.

With respect Jdobbin, you're arguing like a lawyer. Technically, yes it would be legal. Would the average man on the street find it ethical? It would be interesting to see!

The only time we ever had a coalition government was war time. The Liberals not being in power is simply not as important to the nation to justify a coalition government today.

To me this seems like partisanship run amok. You disagree. Well, we don't have to convince each other. The final judge is the Canadian people. I think the Opposition may have forgotten them in their zeal to find a way to negate the last electoral choice.

What's supposed to be the big issue to get Canadians to repent and change their vote away from the Tories? That the Opposition can't get ordinary people to donate even small amounts of money to them? That without donations from the rich and the powerful corporate barons they are bankrupt? That they can only survive on tax money rebates for getting votes?

That Harper wanted to change the rules to force all parties to rely on individual, reasonable voluntary donations?

I keep harping on this I know but it bears repeating. The Average Joe is NOT a political junkie! And contrary to the belief in some quarters, he is not born with a strong instinct to vote Liberal. I think that Canadians in the main will fiercely resent what is an obvious political coup, depriving them of the chance to vote. I don't think the Opposition parties have thought about what voters will think when they DO next get a chance to vote!

Just because Canadians usually seem politically apathetic is a poor reason to believe that you can pull any political game you want. There is always the danger that you might wake the sheep up. Historically, we sheep get angry when woken! There are certain buttons you should never push in politics. It's one thing to note apathy towards voting. It's quite another towards removing the opportunity to vote, rationalizing it by saying "It's technically legal! It's technically legal!"

I almost wish the scenario would play out. I have faith that my fellow citizens would give the Opposition parties the spanking they deserve, eventually giving them all fewer seats than they have now! If they didn't, then maybe we don't deserve to be a free democracy. We should just let whichever party can come up with the best nitpicking constitutional argument govern unopposed.

[cybercoma]

So Harper has removed the controversial vote subsidy from Monday's vote. Will this strategic backpedal now be enough? Reports have it former PM Chretien is meeting Ed Broadbent to smooth out details of a Liberal/NDP coalition with Bloc support.

Could Harper's failed attempt to annhilate parliamentary opposition morph into his own defeat in the Commons with his political victims then setting the timetable and agenda? There is a 'enough is enough' finality in opposition reaction to the latest Tory scheme of sacrificing the national good for more narrow partisan advantage.

The Hon. Jean Chretien won't be satisfied until he has completely dismantled the Liberal party, non? Genius move by Harper. He withdrew the controversial item, the opposition now thinks they have the chance to form the government through a coalition, so they'll continue to press forward. Harper and the Conservatives will paint the opposition as undemocratic opportunists all the way to a majority government that will last for years.

[cybercoma]

And, of course, the complete absense of economic stimulus is the huge missing item. By itself it warrants defeat Monday but also has the built in advantage of 'covering' livid resentment against the govts attempt to destroy opposition parties.

Harper's smug neo-cons might end up on the opposition benches over this.

Help me out here: You don't agree with the deficits, yet you want an economic stimulus package passed out? Where is this money coming from?

[blueblood]

You see: I've heard that argument and it is just not credible. Harper would blame the Opposition for calling an election even if he was getting his way. It would be cynical but he would have the right under Constitution to seek a new mandate. The Governor General might have a hard time ruling against and election in April after half a year.

Our system runs a lot faster than that and the market certainly responds faster than that.

Harper it seems "has just gone to vegas and has put his life savings on 21 black at the roulette table"

Why he went back on the political party funding I don't know? Take that issue to the voters, "how would you like your tax dollars going to pay for people you don't like to be on TV", sure that's utter baloney, but your average voter doesn't know that.

As for the stimulus package the Liberals are throwing in, you know what that means as far as the books go... and I know your position on gov't stimulus to the economy...

Here's the skinny, harper can play his game and let the opposition take the house and hope that they plan on bringing Rae days again. He can let the opposition go into deficit, a huge deficit, and lambast them on the next federal election. If I were party brass, I'd take this position. Harper is expendable, they groomed him out of nowhere and can do the same to anyone else in the party. If the opposition wants this mess let them clean it up.

Option 2, involves going to an election and Harper has to run a well run campaign. There can be no errors, and he has to take the other parties to task over this. This is in Harpers best interests, although it is extremely risky.

Option 3, cave in and hope parliament works. The tories would turn into the Paul Martin Liberals and would be held hostage by the opposition in gov't. The tories would be slim pickings, and Harper would be gone. The tories would also lose credibility and any ground they made.

The risk is big, but the payoff is huge.

[Vancouver King]

Genius move by Harper.

His finance minister looked anything but a genius this morning - more like running scared.

He withdrew the controversial item, the opposition now thinks they have the chance to form the government through a coalition, so they'll continue to press forward.

And you don't think they have a chance to form a govt? Harper has made the greatest strategic blunder of his public life - openly threatening certain political death to the elected represenatives of 62% of voters while simultaneously failing to stimulate a faltering economy. The latter gives the opposition cover to get even for the former.

[Argus]

Our system runs a lot faster than that and the market certainly responds faster than that.

You clearly haven't got the faintest, foggiest clue how government and bureaucracy works.

In order to put out a proper economic stimulus package you need to do a lot of consultation with industry and with the bureaucracy, otherwise you're just throwing money into the wind and hoping some of it does some good. That takes months on its own - which the Conservatives have done and which the libsocialseparatist party has not, of course, engaged in. Then you have to inform the bureaucracy and let the information work its way downward. New processes and programs require bureaucratic adjustment, the shifting of employees, the printing of forms and documents, the writing of operations manuals. You're going to give money to business? All business? Unlikely. Just certain ones who qualify, presumably. What are the rules going to be? Who is going to administer them? What will be the application process? Let's presume it will be my agency, CRA. After senior managers and the government have figured out exactly who will qualify and under what circumstances, those senior managers have to go back and brief their program managers. Those people then have to brief their own people - program and project officers. Their people then need to adjust Operations Manuals and write instruction sets for the tax service centres and offices - bearing in mind how tax law and legislation impacts these things. They will then have to fan out across the country to all those offices to instruct the senior staff in how the new "program" is to work, so those senior staff can instruct their own staff. All of this is not something that happens overnight. It takes many months.

In all likelihood, what we would see is the triumphant "announcement" of some cobbled together compromise reached with little to no consultation with industry and without much in the way of real details. And then they'll take the next several months to try and work out the details before the bureaucracy even starts the machinery to put it into motion.

In other words - the situation you are describing would not only NOT speed up any stimulus package, but would, effectively, delay such a package considerably.

So tell us again why they would force the government out? Oh right, to speed up a stimulus package. Suuuuuure.

Edited November 28, 2008 by Argus

[Argus]

That is entirely up to the Governor General. It was an option that Harper had to if he brought down Martin early. It is completely democratic is the majority of parties can get together and govern.

Yes, but what stopped them is that they can never agree on enough to sustain a government. Running a coalition is even harder than running a minority, unless you're being propped up by a weakling afraid to go to the polls. In this case you'll have a weakling being propped up by a pair of fire-breathers. And how is that going to be managed anyway? It would take some very careful diplomatic work and compromises - none of which Dion has shown any talent for.

Adam Radwanski was uncompromising in his criticism of Harper's attempt to eliminate election funding for the opposition, but even he is incredulous at the thought of Stephan Dion running a coallition government.

A quick review: Stephane Dion is a notoriously stubborn lone wolf. In a cabinet made up entirely of federal Liberals, he had few friends and managed to irritate more than a few colleagues. Not only was he unable to rally his whole party around him; his own office was split into factions, and his national campaign was split into several more.

This is the guy who's going to lead a coalition of Liberals, socialists and sovereigntists?

What they didn't count on was the economy where they seem to be floundering waiting for instructions from the U.S. all the while telling us that we will be major deficit.

I guess this has been sent out as part of the new Liberal Party line since I just heard if it from another party hack on TV. More anti-Americanism, more "Americans are hateful, evil bastards and Harper is a friend of theirs!!"

I don't have a ton of enthusiasm for this government, as I've already stated a few times over the past few weeks, but the idea of a Dion led coallition only makes me giggle. I can't see any way such a government can function without the Liberals being irredeemably tainted by the compromises necessary to satisfy the separatists - and/or the absurdly wasteful and anti business agenda of the socialists.

And just what are the bobsey twins who hope to take power after Dion going to think of THAT? Bad enough they were hoping on ruling a party in tough economic shape, but now in addition to that it'll be a party with a seething mass of the population hating their guts because of how they bent over and took it from Gilles Duceppe and plunged us into an even deeper recession with an immense deficit because of having to accept absurd NDP tax programs. The prospect can only fill them with horror. Dion is an ass whose eyes are shining with the last minute desperate hope that he can STILL after all that's passed, be Prime Minister, but one would expect Rae and Ignatieff to be looking a year down the road to the inevitable calamitous collapse of this "coallition" and quaking in their Gucci loafers.

[jdobbin]

You clearly haven't got the faintest, foggiest clue how government and bureaucracy works.

Really. When Canada makes a budget, the change can be made instantly unlike some other countries where the process churns slowly. You obviously disagree which means you really don't know or don't remember how fast a tax can be cut, increased or how fast a measure can take place. However, it depends on confidence which you seem not have the foggiest idea how important it is to the speed with which you can act.

Look how fast Harper backed away from his plan just a day later. Shows how fast a PM can act when motivated.

Clearly Harper miscalculated.

In order to put out a proper economic stimulus package you need to do a lot of consultation with industry and with the bureaucracy, otherwise you're just throwing money into the wind and hoping some of it does some good. That takes months on its own - which the Conservatives have done and which the libsocialseparatist party has not, of course, engaged in. Then you have to inform the bureaucracy and let the information peculate downward. New processes and programs require bureaucratic adjustment, the shifting of employees, the printing of forms and documents, the writing of operations manuals. You're going to give money to business? All business? Unlikely. Just certain ones who qualify, presumably. What are the rules going to be? Who is going to administer them? What will be the application process? Let's presume it will be my agency, CRA. After senior managers and the government have figured out exactly who will qualify and under what circumstances, those senior managers have to go back and brief their program managers. Those people then have to brief their own people - program and project officers. Their people then need to adjust Operations Manuals and write instruction sets for the tax service centres and offices - bearing in mind how tax law and legislation impacts these things. They will then have to fan out across the country to all those offices to instruct the senior staff in how the new "program" is to work, so those senior staff can instruct their own staff. All of this is not something that happens overnight. It takes many months.

Blah, blah, blah. The rightwingconservative party has decided to sit and wait because they want to make Ontario hurt a bit more so that they can blame provincial Liberals as they did last time.

Put $1 billion into infrastructure and it will increase employment by 11,000 people. It isn't a new program. It is very old program already in progress and one that can work in every municipality in Canada.

In all likelihood, what we would see is the triumphant "announcement" of some cobbled together compromise reached with little to no consultation with industry and without much in the way of real details. And then they'll take the next several months to try and work out the details before the bureaucracy even starts the machinery to put it into motion.

The cock of the walk stance of Harper would have to be dialed back and they will likely have to come back grovelling. I don't see it happening.

His objective to wait months to actually put together a plan and to play hardball in a minority government doesn't instill confidence.

In other words - the situation you are describing would not only NOT speed up any stimulus package, but would, effectively, delay such a package considerably.

Absolute and complete baloney. Infrastructure spending can start immediately. You don't need a huge plan. There is already a long list of projects in water, sewer, road and highway work that each municipality has budgeted but have to wait for money to do.

So tell us again why they would force the government out? Oh right, to speed up a stimulus package. Suuuuuure.

Harper has lost confidence in the House. He wants to wait to act and he has shown no evidence of cooperation.

The" my way or the highway cock of the walk we're out to destroy all who oppose" no longer inspires confidence. He can delay the vote for a week but he has attached confidence to the bill so perhaps he should ask the majority in the House what should be in that bill.