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Nov 20: "Kick A Ginger Day"


kimmy

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Guest American Woman

Which observation, the one about understanding the root causes of terrorism or righteousness?

I guess that wasn't clear, was it? The observation about understanding the causes of terrorism.

Bullying is certainly a word that has been used to describe the manner in which the west pursues its goals in much of the world. How much difference is there really between bullied kids who finally go postal or bullied people who go jihad? Its been my observation for some time now that the themes used to describe abused individuals, families, countries, cultures or people, not to mention the abusers and bullies are so similar as to be almost virtually identical.

I can't argue that; the parallels are there.

I guess by drawing these parallels so often I must appear to be a bit of a thread hijacker, but I can't help it when these parallels are so glaringly obvious.

Like I said, I was going to make the same observation, but you beat me to it. Anyone who is arguing for kids to be able to fight back without restraint, without moral compass, with the idea that they have the right to fight back without any regard because "they deserve it," really has no business criticizing anyone else who acts on that same principle.

I guess what really stands out is how oblivious so many people seem to be to them. South Park and satire in general is likewise either something people get or don't get.

Not being a South Park fan, I can't really comment on that, but it sounds logical.

Another comes to mind...the recollection of my uncle's goading me to become tougher and meaner so I could survive in the world reminds me of the way Canada as a country is so often told it needs to do the same for the very same reason. I still recall the vivid scars my uncle had on his face from someone who'd finally had enough and smacked him with a bottle or pool cue or something. I can see the utility in being tough but I'm not so sure about the wisdom of being mean.

Ultimately, I agree. I think you and I do agree on a lot of things, but it's more a matter of degree.

Edited by American Woman
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So you've decided you have something to say to me after all? ;)

I'm through with any effort to explain or rationalize or justify my anger at this issue to you or to Morris. As I said before: we have a message board where people are outraged over events on the other side of the world, have passionate feelings about people they've never met, intense views about issues that will never affect them personally... and yet we have people chiding others for being angry or self-righteous over something that has personally touched them and their families. There's obviously no point saying anything further. If you don't get it, you don't get it, and nothing I could possibly say is ever going to change that.

However, this other stuff... this is still worth a look.

I think a large percentage of young people today are struggling with "personal problems" to one extent or another. A lot of people tend to assume that everyone else is dripping with confidence and for the most part is sailing through life, but I think most kids are struggling with one thing or another. The idea that kids are happy just because they are popular, on the football team, a cheerleader is hard for me to fathom as I don't see those things as guarantees of happiness. One can be a member of one of those groups and still be insecure, pressured at home, struggling with divorced parents/step-parents, trying to stay thin, trying to maintain that popularity/position on the football/cheer-leading team. Often times, perhaps this is what defines their self worth to these kids.

These groups are not martian to me. I was a standout athlete throughout my school career and did gain entry into the right (or sometimes wrong) cliques and circles. (Especially at schools where I had to stick up for myself when I first arrived, because it's amazing how "proving" yourself in such a way makes people want to be your friend.) And I know that the popular kids and the beautiful people have stresses and problems of their own. Everybody has problems.

But there's this popular belief that bullying is a cry for help, lashing out because of a deeply troubled home life or an abusive parent, and so on. And that might be for the occasional one, but I don't believe it's true in general at all. I believe that the typical bully is no more a victim of pressure and stress and abuse than any other person between the ages of 5 and 105.

If kids are bullying because they think it makes them look cool, evidently they don't feel cool without the bullying, which supports my point. As for "their friends are doing it," again, if they had confidence in their own choices, they wouldn't be doing it; it's a need to be accepted.

Same can be said for smoking. People don't look at smoking as a cry for help or assume it's a result of a broken home. People don't look at mailbox baseball as a cry for a help or a result of a broken home. People do all kids of things to be accepted or to look cool, and generally it's not because they have serious emotional problems, it's just because they're normal human beings.

I think this widespread assumption that in the case of bullying it's somehow different is just folklore.

But regardless, beating up kids, encouraging other kids to put themselves in a dangerous situation, could very well led to harm. It's in effect encouraging the 'gang mentality.'

When I lashed out violently, it was because nothing that could have happened would have been worse than allowing what was happening to my brother to continue. I believed, and still believe, that he would have killed himself if the situation had not changed. When someone you love is so afraid of each day that you hear them vomiting their breakfast in the bathroom each morning, the philosophical implications become irrelevant to you.

So people should educate them. That's been my point.

Anti-bullying "education" is about as effective as anti-smoking "education". The one surefire way to make kids want to do something is to tell them it's bad and wrong and not to do it.

What really makes somebody understand why smoking is bad? Seeing a loved one dieing of lung cancer. What makes somebody understand that bullying isn't fun? Seeing the situation turn into something ugly. It's really unfortunate.

Again, if there were outside pressure put on the schools, perhaps they would be more inclined to find ways to more effectively deal with the problem. As for parents of bullies, not so sure they would ever see their 'angel' as a problem. I think the parents of the bullied are the ones who are going to have to take a stand/be vocal. Be LOUD. Demand that the school takes steps to 'punish' those who are visibly doing the bulling. Be involved.

My parents went to the school again and again with no results. I beat one kid's face in, and got immediate results. It's unfortunate, but the lesson here is obvious.

I met a woman today whose daughter is a teacher; the woman told me horror stories about parents her daughter has do deal with. She can't even give out detentions; if that woman in the SUV in the parking lot has to wait 5 minutes extra for her little angel, she's on her cell-phone calling the school superintendent's office. I imagine that in such an environment, attempting to deal with discipline problems at school would be an impossible headache for the principal. There's probably a good reason why the schools seem completely ineffective in dealing with situations, and probably parents with an absurd sense of entitlement is a big part of it. So how do you get through to people?

-k

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I'm through with any effort to explain or rationalize or justify my anger at this issue to you or to Morris.

-k

Umm....how did I manage to get involved? I don't recall asking you to justify your anger or your wish to be a red head for a day so long ago...

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Umm....how did I manage to get involved? I don't recall asking you to justify your anger or your wish to be a red head for a day so long ago...

That comment about the self-righteousness quota was directed largely at me, yes?

-k

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That comment about the self-righteousness quota was directed largely at me, yes?

-k

Umm...no, it was directed at the person sitting on her fabulously high horse.

Who among us hasn't wished just once they could be 17 again to right the wrongs we receieved?

Picking an argument over such a basic phantasy is the height of self righteous pomposity.

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Umm...no, it was directed at the person sitting on her fabulously high horse.

Who among us hasn't wished just once they could be 17 again to right the wrongs we receieved?

Picking an argument over such a basic phantasy is the height of self righteous pomposity.

I'm sorry, I completely misunderstood.

-k

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No one has a right to touch a single hair on your head or to lay a finger on you. They do, however, have the right to look at you funny,.

I seem to recall a long ago univerity professor in Toronto who got fired for allegedly looking at some co-eds funny while they were in the swimming pool.In fact, I'm pretty sure any number of harrassment complaints have been lodged over the years - and accepted - after men looked at women "funny". So I guess we DON'T have the right to look at people funny.

As long as we're being literal.

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I see bullying as a real problem. I don't see adults advocating unrestrained violence as the answer.

No one has advocated 'unrestrained violence' nor anything remotely similar. Your take on this topic only serves to prove how utterly out of touch with the real world people like you are. Your lovely academic theories on child betterment and edcuation rarely work, and usually only serve to make a bad situation worse. A punch in the face is a greater educator than all your soft-headed chiding and whining could ever be.

As an aside. Back in the dark ages, when children were disciplined with spankings, and at worst instance, at school, with ruler and strap, schools were considerably safer places, and far less violence took place among young people. So just what has all your soft, squishy child psychology efforts accomplished?

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What utter rubbish. In a school full of kids that believe as you do, there could very well be horrible results; violence involving weapons, violence resulting in someone getting badly injured, violence resulting in death.

You are describing what happens in schools today which practice your squishy, empty headed, hug-the-thug style of finger wagging at bullies and violent punks. It's amazing, and almost laughable you don't even realize that.

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Guest American Woman

No one has advocated 'unrestrained violence' nor anything remotely similar.

A punch in the face is a greater educator than all your soft-headed chiding and whining could ever be.

:rolleyes:

I'll leave it at that, as I laugh at your hilarious comment, since I'm in the minority of those who are not doing any whining in this thread. :lol:

As an aside. Back in the dark ages, when children were disciplined with spankings, and at worst instance, at school, with ruler and strap, schools were considerably safer places, and far less violence took place among young people. So just what has all your soft, squishy child psychology efforts accomplished?

Yes, you're right. There was no bullying back in the Olden Days. Schools were totally safe, even as kids were getting hit with straps and rulers. Ahhhh for the Good Old Days.

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:rolleyes:

I'll leave it at that, as I laugh at your hilarious comment

I'm sorry, but are you actually trying to take the position that "a punch in the face" = "unrestrained violence"? I mean, really!? I mean, just how sheltered ARE you?

Yes, you're right. There was no bullying back in the Olden Days. Schools were totally safe, even as kids were getting hit with straps and rulers. Ahhhh for the Good Old Days.

There were no gangs of kids kicking other kids in the head and sticking knives into them. There were no gangs of boys raping girls in the hallways and bathrooms, and no shootings in the gym or riots at assembly. Yes, things in schools WERE a hell of a lot safer, and there actually WAS a hell of a lot less violence. Are you going to try and make the case there wasn't?

I'm not suggesting there wasn't bullying, but I see absolutely no trace of evidence that bullying, for all your bleeding heart programs, has eased one iota, and plenty of evidence that violence is far, far worse than it ever was when I was in school.

What planet do you come from, lady/

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Guest American Woman

I'm sorry, but are you actually trying to take the position that "a punch in the face" = "unrestrained violence"? I mean, really!? I mean, just how sheltered ARE you?

Ummmm. No. I'm taking the position that the posts that referred to unrestrained violence = unrestrained violence.

There were no gangs of kids kicking other kids in the head and sticking knives into them.

No, of course not. Rapes are a new problem, and of course there were no knifings back in the Dark Ages, either. No violence. Just goodness and light.

There were no gangs of boys raping girls in the hallways and bathrooms, and no shootings in the gym or riots at assembly.

The ignorance of that statement is mind boggling.

Yes, things in schools WERE a hell of a lot safer, and there actually WAS a hell of a lot less violence. Are you going to try and make the case there wasn't?

No, I'm not, because it's not worth the effort I would have to put forth to make such a case with you.

I'm not suggesting there wasn't bullying, but I see absolutely no trace of evidence that bullying, for all your bleeding heart programs, has eased one iota, and plenty of evidence that violence is far, far worse than it ever was when I was in school.

Perhaps it's because you lack 20/20 vision.

What planet do you come from, lady/

I have to laugh, because all of the anger, the emotional outbursts in this thread, are coming from those advocating violence. Ironic? You bet. B)

Edited by American Woman
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For you to characterize the emotional responses this topic provokes as "whining" just confirms to me that you really don't have any real appreciation of it. It's just an abstract philosophical concept to you, a theoretical or hypothetical discussion, isn't it.

You seem to see no moral difference between bullying and fighting back against bullying. "They had it coming" is irrelevant, it's all just violence. Fighting back encourages a "gang mentality". If people started fighting back, soon you'd have Columbine happening all over again. Standing up to bullies just leads to more violence. It's the terrorist thing to do.

Let's educate them! Let's battle the low self-esteem that must be behind this sort of behavior! Indeed, let's educate them by teaching them that the school can't actually do anything to stop them. Let's boost their self-esteem by letting them to do as they wish! Let's empower bullies by teaching them that the worst consequences they will face is having to sit through milk-and-cookies with the school counsellor. And if you don't like that the school can't do anything to change what's going on? Be vocal! And if you still don't like that they can't do anything? Be LOUD!

-k

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Guest American Woman

For you to characterize the emotional responses this topic provokes as "whining" just confirms to me that you really don't have any real appreciation of it.

Good Lord. I was referring to the "emotional outbursts" (not "emotional responses") and anger directed at me, not at bullying. I seriously thought that would have been obvious. :rolleyes:

Having pointed that out, I have no desire to discuss this any further with you. The rest of your moronic post, along with your repeated accusation that I have no real appreciation for the problem of bullying, shows me that you either are not reading what I've said, are dishonestly representing what I said, or have absolutely no ability to comprehend what I've said.

Edited by American Woman
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Good Lord. I was referring to the "emotional outbursts" (not "emotional responses") and anger directed at me, not at bullying. I seriously thought that would have been obvious. :rolleyes:

Having pointed that out, I have no desire to discuss this any further with you. The rest of your moronic post, along with your repeated accusation that I have no real appreciation for the problem of bullying, shows me that you either are not reading what I've said, are dishonestly representing what I said, or have absolutely no ability to comprehend what I've said.

In the words of the immortal Emily Litella, "Never mind!".

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Ummmm. No. I'm taking the position that the posts that referred to unrestrained violence = unrestrained violence.

There were none of those, so you must have put your straw man together out of imaginary fluff.

No, of course not. Rapes are a new problem, and of course there were no knifings back in the Dark Ages, either. No violence. Just goodness and light.

Violence beyond the occasional simple fist-fight - between two boys, which ended when one was down or gave up - was virtually unknown in the schools I grew up in. That changed when people like you, brainless do-gooders with socialiogy and psychology degrees took over under the guise of being kinder and gentler. The strict discipline evaporated in favour of "understanding" the rule breaker, the bully, the violent.

One can say with a strong degree of confidence that the kind of violence we see in schools today is almost entirely the fault of people like you, completely out of touch theorists with no idea how to deal with young people, but a sheltered abohorance to any kind of punishment which involved more than talk.

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  • 2 weeks later...

One can say with a strong degree of confidence that the kind of violence we see in schools today is almost entirely the fault of people like you, completely out of touch theorists with no idea how to deal with young people, but a sheltered abohorance to any kind of punishment which involved more than talk.

Good lord. You take the extremely complex changes in societal norms and behavior and blame--who else--"people like [her]."

And yes, I have no doubt that you (not "one"--but you) have "a strong degree of confidence" that everything can be blamed on those who disagree with you.

Everything is either/or. (And, presumably, left vs. right.) The Manichean worldview, in which punches to the face are good old-fashioned common sense.

Exept that then, as now, the people doing most of the punching were the physically strong but nevertheless pantywaisted little bullies who lacked character; and those receiving said punches were those committing the unforgiveable (insuffiently "masculine") sin of not being as strong as their predators.

Even aside from all this, I personally know a man who puinched somebody in the face...and unintentionally killed him. So it's not always "boys will be boys."

Edited by bloodyminded
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Guest American Woman
Even aside from all this, I personally know a man who puinched somebody in the face...and unintentionally killed him. So it's not always "boys will be boys."

Anyone who doesn't recognize that encouraging children to fight can lead to dire consequences is dangerously clueless as to what can happen when kids "fight it out" amongst themselves, especially with the blessings of adults who more or less encourage them to 'take it to whatever level is necessary,' because 'they deserve it.'

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