Lest We Forget

[noahbody]

Wrong. They fought for freedom and what that meant at that time.

Your argument for "Wrong." supports my argument, not yours. I'm sure you'll come back with "Wrong."

They were interested in predicting what that freedom would evolve to because they were too busy fighting for the cause.

Gee, you just said they fought for freedom and what it meant at the time. Now you're saying they fought for some undefined definition of freedom.

Edit to fix typo

Edited November 10, 2008 by noahbody

[Oleg Bach]

The Nazis would have taken all freedom away - that is certain. BUT the mentality that is National Socialism thrives in Canada...M

[charter.rights]

You're argument for "Wrong." supports my argument, not yours. I'm sure you'll come back with "Wrong."

Gee, you just said they fought for freedom and what it meant at the time. Now you're saying they fought for some undefined definition of freedom.

That was a mis-type. It should have read "They were not interested in predicting what that freedom would evolve to because they were too busy fighting for the cause."

[noahbody]

That was a mis-type. It should have read "They were not interested in predicting what that freedom would evolve to because they were too busy fighting for the cause."

I understood that. It's still a contradiction.

I do understand you point of view. What I disagree with is the idea of taking specific special interests and claiming it was what they were fighting for. IMO it is more accurate to say they were fighting against losing freedom as they knew it. Agree?

[capricorn]

From talking to my granddad and uncles who had served in WWII, they voiced no quarrel with peoples as a group. There was no Hollywood talk like "Them dirty Nazis!" They totally understood that the "other guy" was likely not a fanatic but just fighting for his country the same as them. Their leadership was our real enemy. They had no generalized hate for the enemy soldier. They reserved that only for those who committed atrocities and war crimes. It was a dirty job but they didn't want the Germans or the Japanese to be able to impose their will on free peoples. They fought for our freedom and then they came home.

That was a very thoughtful post Wild Bill. Yours and other posts got me thinking about whether some of our soldiers were clear in their minds about why they joined during wartime. What those men and women did was answer the call that our country's help was needed to stop the aggression taking place in other lands. For example, if Hitler's invasion of other countries had been left unchecked, that aggression threatened to make its way to our shores. Canadian soldiers helped liberate other countries, such as Holland and France. That was a fight to protect the freedom of other peoples and as a consequence, Canada's as well.

I watched a documentary on the Battle of Medak Pocket tonight. I knew little about this extraordinary achievement by Canadian soldiers that took place in 1993 because it was not widely reported.

During Canada's UN peacekeeping stint in the Balkans, prior to taking a more aggressive role with NATO, some 100 soldiers became casualties, and were often put in impossible situations - taken hostage, mined, fired at, resented, threatened - all the while with imprecise orders on whether they could, couldn't or shouldn't fight back.

Perhaps the closest the Canadians came to war, or battle, was in the Croatian invasion of the Medak Pocket in the Serb-held Krajian area of Croatia in the fall of 1993. Yet, for political reasons, virtually no publicity was given to the Canadians' trial by fire.

http://www.serbianunity.net/news/world_art...oronto_Sun.html

The above link contains an account on the Medak Pocket conflict.

The Battle of Medak Pocket tells the compelling story of a stand off in September 1993 between the heavily armed Croat troops and the men of the Second Battalion of the Princess Patricia’s Canadian Light Infantry.

Their bravery and determination saved the mission, forcing the Serbs to lay down their arms, pushing the Croats out of the area, and earning the men of the Princess Patricia’s 2nd Battalion a rare UN unit citation.

The events at Medak Pocket helped crystallize an ongoing debate in the world community over the effectiveness of the original UN tradition of “peace keeping” and the need to replace it with a more effective but dangerous doctrine of “peace making.”

http://www.history.ca/ontv/titledetails.aspx?titleid=101238

This riveting documentary will air again on November 19 on the History Channel. Anyone who wants to witness the resolve of our military and their commitment to innocents trapped in hostilities should view it.

[wulf42]

Yeah..........i don't always like what has happened to this country either but that is a different matter, as a former soldier i admire all vets no matter what war they fought in the past or the current situation they face today......these are the bravest people on Earth and to be asked to leave your family go thousands of miles away and not know if your coming back is unimaginable for most people. I recently watched the movie Passchendaele and i have to say it really hits home.

[bush_cheney2004]

...You talk about a few aboriginal veterans as if they won the war--all the rage nowadays making a disprorportionately huge stink over a trivial aspect of the war. Oh what would the Americans have done in the South Pacific had it note been for their Navaho "code talkers"? Well, they still would have won--that's for sure. They just would have had to have devised some codes and spent time training a bunch of non-Indian radio operators how to use it. No big deal considering the enormity of the American war effort. Please, let's kepp things in perspective...

Nope.....you clearly do not understand why the Navajo Code Talkers were so valuable, which makes it easier for you to insult their contributions to the war effort, and not just in the South Pacific.

[Oleg Bach]

I know exactly who they were - Coders who used a language so ancient and so unknown that the code could never never be broken - that is as valuable as you get!

[bush_cheney2004]

I know exactly who they were - Coders who used a language so ancient and so unknown that the code could never never be broken - that is as valuable as you get!

Right....much better than an Enigma with rotors! +2

[Oleg Bach]

Right....much better than an Enigma with rotors! +2

Super low tech kicks ass - just like a piece of paper with phone numbers is high tech and a very secure and advanced form of record keeping - no battery - you can fold it and make it compact - it lasts for years. Enigma because it was mechanical could be de-coded - just takes time - where as the native coders had the edge - no one can travel backward in time and it was actually amusing to think of the guys in Japan and all their resourses trying to figure out what the hell they were saying - similar to low tech Taliban - in a cave...who send off a runner on the hottest night to deliver a message. Modern heat sensing equipment has trouble tracing the movement - Is that a hot rock or a man...?

[kengs333]

Nope.....you clearly do not understand why the Navajo Code Talkers were so valuable, which makes it easier for you to insult their contributions to the war effort, and not just in the South Pacific.

I just think that it needs to be kept in perspective. There's too much focus on isolated aspects of the wars, not the big picture. The other day I saw something about the only known grave of a Sikh who served in the CEF. Interesting, but most people don't even know what the CEF was, the major battles that Canada fought in during WWI, let alone WWII. What does No. 6 Group stand for, what day did the Invasion of Italy take place on? Not many Canadians know, yet the media is concerned with these trivial special interest stories.

[kengs333]

I know exactly who they were - Coders who used a language so ancient and so unknown that the code could never never be broken - that is as valuable as you get!

So ancient in fact that the code talkers had to make up half of the words that they used... You know, it's an interesting story but it still doesn't change the fact that it was a very small aspect of the American war effort in the Pacific.

[bush_cheney2004]

I just think that it needs to be kept in perspective. There's too much focus on isolated aspects of the wars, not the big picture. The other day I saw something about the only known grave of a Sikh who served in the CEF. Interesting, but most people don't even know what the CEF was, the major battles that Canada fought in during WWI, let alone WWII. What does No. 6 Group stand for, what day did the Invasion of Italy take place on? Not many Canadians know, yet the media is concerned with these trivial special interest stories.

Yet it was thousands of "special interest stories" that made the "big picture" exist at all. The world's wars are not just exercises in set piece management with bullet points (pun intended). Poor memories or even ignorance today do not minimize why things happened, or who made such things happen.

[Guest American Woman]

Thank you for the nice post/thoughts, Capricorn. I'd like to add my thoughts to yours, and add American soldiers to our thoughts and prayers-- as well as all of our other allies who have served, fought, died, been wounded along with our troops. May we never take our countries and freedoms for granted.

Godspeed, Army Guy. You remain in my thoughts.

[Army Guy]

Too bad that the Canada that so many of these men and women fought and died for no longer exists.

I would beg to differ sir, Those hundrds of thousands of men and women that served thier country are the very ones that came back from those conflicts full of new ideas, changes for the better, and are the ones that started this whole change process in our country. We as a nation have not stopped that process, and are still evolving today. Although we may not like change and all of it's little twists to our daily routine, it is nessicary for us to grow, it is nessicary for us to take that next step to becoming better.

One can not sit there and say these where our golden years as a nation. As i'm sure there are many things that happend during thier times that they are not so proud of either, things that they worked hard on changing...

I just think that it needs to be kept in perspective. There's too much focus on isolated aspects of the wars, not the big picture. The other day I saw something about the only known grave of a Sikh who served in the CEF. Interesting, but most people don't even know what the CEF was, the major battles that Canada fought in during WWI, let alone WWII. What does No. 6 Group stand for, what day did the Invasion of Italy take place on? Not many Canadians know, yet the media is concerned with these trivial special interest stories.

And while i do get your piont, Canadian history is fading rapidly, but to combat that we must get everyone involved as much as possiable, provoke them into finding out more about our History, and i think that was the media is trying to do....

My Sgt Major used to drive a valid piont home every parade. "I could not care less if you where purple with warts on your dick, during combat.... you all bleed red, you will all scream out in pain, your very existance depends on the man next to you regardless of race, color, or religion

Here we will chew the same dirt, share the same experiances, we will become brothers in arms...

Every mans contribution to ending the conflict is important, every story must be told, or it will be forgotten, and we will have broken that promise we made to them, WE SHALL REMEMBER.

[M.Dancer]

I would beg to differ sir, Those hundrds of thousands of men and women that served thier country are the very ones that came back from those conflicts full of new ideas, changes for the better, and are the ones that started this whole change process in our country. We as a nation have not stopped that process, and are still evolving today. Although we may not like change and all of it's little twists to our daily routine, it is nessicary for us to grow, it is nessicary for us to take that next step to becoming better.

Bang on

[Rue]

First i just wanted to say thanks. it means alot to me and the rest of the people here, that we are in your thoughts.

As much as i would like to steal all the lime light there are some more names on this board we should also remember,

Names of people who are serving now or who have served before us,

Angus Thermopyle

Argus

M Dancer

Weoponeer.

I know there are more, feel free to add on more if you like, i apologize if i got my info incorrect, all these are the guys i'd like to salute....

Thank you all and thanks to them all.

[charter.rights]

I would beg to differ sir, Those hundrds of thousands of men and women that served thier country are the very ones that came back from those conflicts full of new ideas, changes for the better, and are the ones that started this whole change process in our country. We as a nation have not stopped that process, and are still evolving today. Although we may not like change and all of it's little twists to our daily routine, it is nessicary for us to grow, it is nessicary for us to take that next step to becoming better.

One can not sit there and say these where our golden years as a nation. As i'm sure there are many things that happend during thier times that they are not so proud of either, things that they worked hard on changing...

And while i do get your piont, Canadian history is fading rapidly, but to combat that we must get everyone involved as much as possiable, provoke them into finding out more about our History, and i think that was the media is trying to do....

My Sgt Major used to drive a valid piont home every parade. "I could not care less if you where purple with warts on your dick, during combat.... you all bleed red, you will all scream out in pain, your very existance depends on the man next to you regardless of race, color, or religion

Here we will chew the same dirt, share the same experiances, we will become brothers in arms...

Every mans contribution to ending the conflict is important, every story must be told, or it will be forgotten, and we will have broken that promise we made to them, WE SHALL REMEMBER.

That's the way it is in the Fire Service as well.

[Rue]

Nope.....you clearly do not understand why the Navajo Code Talkers were so valuable, which makes it easier for you to insult their contributions to the war effort, and not just in the South Pacific.

Bush some people's ignorance really angers me. Lol but then some of us can't help it..others however....I will hold my breath on this one and state I actually was fortunate enough to have an relative who served as a psychiatrist in the US Army in WW2. He actually had some very interesting stories about Nuremberg.

He did spend some time telling me a bit about the code talkers. I am sure you saw the movie that came out a few years back. Read some other stuff on it. An amazing story especially the part how they could not be taken alive and what that meant.

My father was a career soldier who retired when I was young. One thing he did was make sure I visit the permanent war vets in the hospital. Of course they would not talk of themselves but they could tell me what others did.

I dare say there are an infinite number of stories of ordinary men, just ordinary guys asekd to do extra-ordinary things and some times just do ordinary things that were part of a bigger thing they could not see but had to have faith in...so many stories....of modest, humble, people...I think for me the thing I remember most when I thing of vets and what they mean to me and what I think they mean for the world I live in, is there modesty at their contribution to a life I enjoy and I am the first in my family to have been able to live.

I am not sure how you tell a vet or soldier how awesome freedom is and how grateful I am for it and what their role is in assuring it. It just can't come out in words.

Nov.11 is a day I am proud of my father, all soldiers and vets and am fucking grateful. That's all I can say. Having relatives serve in Canada, Britain, the U.S. and New Zealand armed forces in ww2, all I can say is I am proud of them all.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Rue

[M.Dancer]

First i just wanted to say thanks. it means alot to me and the rest of the people here, that we are in your thoughts.

As much as i would like to steal all the lime light there are some more names on this board we should also remember,

Names of people who are serving now or who have served before us,

Angus Thermopyle

Argus

M Dancer

Weoponeer.

I don't want to overstate or be have it overstated....I was in the militia (reserves) in the early 80s...in no way can I compare my experiances to either the regular forces back then or the army of today. There is a different bearing among today's forces than back then. They walk taller, hold their heads higher....

...the green uniforms still blow...that hasn't changed. I thought they were going back to drab?

[Rue]

I don't want to overstate or be have it overstated....I was in the militia (reserves) in the early 80s...in no way can I compare my experiances to either the regular forces back then or the army of today. There is a different bearing among today's forces than back then. They walk taller, hold their heads higher....

...the green uniforms still blow...that hasn't changed. I thought they were going back to drab?

Yah that was you I saw driving that truck that was falling apart. You looked like Fred Flintstone driving his car with his feet on the ground. Still proud of you. Reserve or not. The uniform is the same. Of course I blame Paul Hellyer for the truck and the fact your pants didn't fit you properly.

[Sir Bandelot]

I object to the way it is used today to promote militarism in schools. On rememberance day they sent a military guy to give a speech at my kids high-school, and he went on about the Taliban, showing pictures of "the face of the enemy" etc.

To me Remembrance day has become a day to glorify the military, not remember the sacrifices made in the world wars. We have pretty much forgetten those days and their events, our leaders ignore the laws of the Geneva conventions, things like torture, unlawful detention and first-strikes. If we want to honour the vets we should also remember those things, lest they happen again caused by us.

[M.Dancer]

To me Remembrance day has become a day to glorify the military, not remember the sacrifices made in the world wars. We have pretty much forgetten those days and their events, our leaders ignore the laws of the Geneva conventions, things like torture, unlawful detention and first-strikes. If we want to honour the vets we should also remember those things, lest they happen again caused by us.

Ha ha!

[Army Guy]

Don't kid yourself Morris, and don't sell yourself short....you made a decision to serve, to don the uniform, accepting unlimited liabilty....that in itself speaks for your character....you've earned the right to stand tall.

[Oleg Bach]

Don't kid yourself Morris, and don't sell yourself short....you made a decision to serve, to don the uniform, accepting unlimited liabilty....that in itself speaks for your character....you've earned the right to stand tall.

The marshall class is the last place in society where such a noble attribute as the adherence to DUTY - still exists - along with honesty and that thing that boarders on kingship - loyality! THIS part of military I am in full favour of. To bad these values are being incrimentally removed from a society that becomes more and more barbaric as the decades pass. No matter what some lefties say about the military - one thing for sure - The Marshall Class has dignity and class - the rest of us don't.