Lest We Forget

[Sir Bandelot]

I think the problem is more likely envy

It's not about envy. I have no desire to be a rich man. I think the question is, how much would you do for it, how much are you willing to screw other people over to get rich. I have no such ambition. Envy has nothing to do with it.

What I meant was, when rich people help their kids to get into a position of power and influence, they don't have the same amount of experience as Dad or Grandad did, who worked their way up through the system and "learned the ropes". But because they inherited power and always had a life of privilege, many second or third generation rich kids are technically incompetent to be leaders. It's much like the degenerates of aristocracy, the problem of inheritance perpetuates itself in any system.

[Sir Bandelot]

The idea that you have better morals just because you inherit money from your family that goes back generations is ridiculous and downright ignorant. Good God man, look at the kings of England. By the way, if the White House was being run by 'peasants' we wouldn't be in this war, as the majority of Americans DISapprove of it.

Well this is the point I am alluding to, and thats what I interpret Oleg Bach to have meant also, I think by Marshal Class he means military leaders, not kings or business tychoons.

"In many countries, the rank of Marshal is the highest Army rank, outranking other General Officers. Typically the equivalent navy rank is Admiral of the Fleet."

Edited November 14, 2008 by Sir Bandelot

[Mortui]

Well this is the point I am alluding to, and thats what I interpret Oleg Bach to have meant also, I think by Marshal Class he means military leaders, not kings or business tychoons.

"In many countries, the rank of Marshal is the highest Army rank, outranking other General Officers. Typically the equivalent navy rank is Admiral of the Fleet."

Might I ask who runs the military 'detention centers'? Who is the person in charge of the troops in Iraq? Who is in charge of the troops in Afghanistan? Are you suggesting that the Officers there weren't running the troops? Who do you think is?

[Sir Bandelot]

Might I ask who runs the military 'detention centers'?

If you mean like Gitmo, far be it from me to defend any of those things. Thats not the kind of honourable military we were talking about a few posts up. But I assume they took their orders from Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld when he was in it. I suspect they are not members of the "marshal class", but more in line with oil barons. Cheney has ties to Haliburton, and security companies too I think. They have strong business interests in these wars, for oil and economic dominance of the region. It's nothing new. Canada is in on it too by making similar deals. It's not about freedom. If it was, we'd be fighting wars all over the place, but those other places don't have as much to offer. At least thats my view of it.

I don't think what our troops are doing is always bad, they want to help the ordinary people defend themelves from Taliban. Thats their mission... but is that the right way to do it, will it work at all, and how does it end? Sometimes we have good intentions but they clash with the harsh reality of what other people want. Those people have had nothing but war for at least a century, and most of it came from western countries who want to lay claim to their spot for reasons other than freedom and democracy. And they have long memories.

[kengs333]

WOW

There are still people like this in 2008?

how quaint

You mean people who believe that immorality and sexual deviance is wrong? Yeah, go figure...

[charter.rights]

You mean people who believe that immorality and sexual deviance is wrong? Yeah, go figure...

Immorality and deviance just doesn't exist in the context you make it out to be. All that is is just an insane thought in your own mind.

Who died and made you God?

[Sir Bandelot]

Now as a result funding is hard to come by, be it for anything....What most Canadians have forgotten are thier soldiers, whom they had no problems waving goodbye to at the start of the mission, they are still caught in the middle....with no funding for the mission, it makes things extraordinary hard to accomplish on the ground, meaning our soldiers are paying for your actions...not the politions...but our very own soldiers...

And when your on the other end of the stick, on the soldiers side, it does not not like support to our troops....your working again'st us...your putting our lifes in danger to make a piont that that accomplishes nothing....

Want to support us, want to hold our political masters accountable then finish what you started...

Further to this comment I would like to know why our government is not providing adequate resources to fund our troops, yet finds it easy to buy out bad loans to shore up banking profits. Anybody? Any of you financial geniuses? The point Oleg made, rings loud and clear

Edited November 14, 2008 by Sir Bandelot

[Sir Bandelot]

In short Army Guy, it's not the people of Canada who don't care. We simply don't get to hear about it. Even an anti-war person like me is apalled that we would do this sort of thing to our Canadian troops, but I have yet to hear from the pro-government pro-war bobble heads around here to say anything about it. Notice how the self rightous and arrogant CPC yes-men remain tight-lipped, they would rather ignore and cover up this info before they would raise a single objection. Thats why I say, I and others like me are your biggest defender, I hold no allegiance to a party, and I do criticise them. Its the government, whose main interest is not you but making deals and lining the pockets of rich bankers who is betraying you guys.

[Army Guy]

Come on, you must realize that war opens the opportunity for profiteering. And where there's money to be made comes the greedy ones who abuse their privelidge.

There is money to be made with any venture, money is one of the key driving elements in everthing we do...But just how much money do you think Canada is going to reap in this war, I mean our military industry is very small, compared to other countries and i doubt very much that there is as much profit in it as you suggest...So please answer the Question..... "If it is such a problem perhaps you can give us some examples of our political leaders licking the hands of big business whom are abusing our military."

Your example of the pipeleine is a poor one, How can you draw a link between the war in Afgan and energy needs of India and pakistan...Are you saying that the war is the reason this pipeline is being built....Construction on this pipeline within Afgan has not even started yet...and won't until the Taliban are destroyed, or a some kind of peace agreement is signed. This reporter is making alot of guesses....

Just so i'm clear, just how well do you think the citizens are doing in protecting them from this abuse of power. Is it having any effect?"

Most citizens simply don't know, others couldn't care less.

Not true, every Canadian supports thier troops....ask any of them...the answer will always be "Yes i support me troops" whether they do or not out of fear of being labeled something ugly....Stop selling Canadians short, they know of the issue, they may not know the entire topic but they know enough to take action....

Which really leaves just one other option, there are those that support the mission, and there are those that don't and really don't give a shit what happens..... to the mission or the troops.....

Somehow I think most Canadians never supported the war in the first place, but were told by Chretien that it was part of our obligations to international treaties to send troops.

I say bullshit, the majority of Canadians could not wait to sign up for Afgan and get out of the whole Iraqi question and problems...Check the media clips of the time....Check out the polls of the time....a Majority of Canadians did in fact support this was in Afgan....

And the original mission is not the same as the extended and more aggressive mission we have today.

Not true at all, our orginal mission in Afgan was in the same area in which we are fighting in today, we where under US command, in combat operations to rout out Taliban in the mountains....Can't get more aggressive than that....it was not until much later that we where reassigned to the kabul area....

I also truly believe, that most Canadians would care TREMENDOUSLY about what you just said, that they would be very angry to find out our troops are at risk because of government neglect.

WHOA, not government neglect, NEGLECT of Canadian citizens....was it not you that said it was YOUR responsiablity to ensure that our soldiers are not abused or neglected....This has been reported over and over for the last 20 years, our forces are rusting out....you've read it we all have, each Canadian knows it, and knowing that very fact we have not connected the dots, rusted out military, and combat....we as a nation have sent our troops into combat with rusted out equipment or in some cases without the equipment needed period....so you have failed to protect us from anything....From a soldiers view piont it suggests that the majority does not support them at all....

Your side have been very good at swaying the majority of people who once agreed and supported the mission, but that is not where it should stop, although i disagree with your views. If it is your intention of actually doing what you think is best for our nation, and our soldiers then the now majority should be demanding the return of our soldiers ASAP. It should be thier main objective, and it should be the main objective of the government to atleast convince the people of thier argument as well. Right now it places our soldiers at a disadvantage in a war, that they have no control over, and are not recieving the resources that could have turned this around.

There's a very simple way to finish it. Pull out and let someone else have a turn. Or do what Peter Mackay said we would never do, but is increasingly becoming the only option- negotiate.

Third option, which never worked yet, is to get others to contribute their fair share. Maybe President Obama will now help with that by moving in more US troops. He seems to have his priorities straight.

Pulling out is not the answer either, we as a nation have not done this in the past, nor should we do it now, NATO organization is at a fragile state this mission failure could find the major players rethinking those defensive agreements, finding new partners, ...we as a nation really needs to be with the "in" crowd , as we don't put alot of resources or thought into our defense, or military...not only for defense, but internally as well, such as diasater response plans, floods etc etc...so we need a strong military as a partner. Our pulling out is not going to look good to our allieds when they have been asked to step up to the plate with more troops.....

[Sir Bandelot]

Your example of the pipeleine is a poor one,...Are you saying that the war is the reason this pipeline is being built....Construction on this pipeline within Afgan has not even started yet...and won't until the Taliban are destroyed, or a some kind of peace agreement is signed.

Its an example of the kind of abuse I was alluding to, imagine our troops protecting a pipeline. I doubt anybody signed on for missions like that. It is only an example of the kind of profiteering that threatens to abuse the loyalty of the troops for personal gains. In the US there is Dick Cheney's Haliburton. Canada is no different in the way business works to influence/ manipulate government. Not saying that is the only reason our troops are there now, but that is a constant threat that must be checked when corporations start telling our government what to do.

I think neither of us is blaming the Canadian people. If anything has changed it's that Canadians do not believe in the mission. But Canadians should know if our troops are being neglected or under-funded by the government who have no problem helping banks even when there is no crisis. So I am interested in finding out more about this.

"was it not you that said it was YOUR responsiablity to ensure that our soldiers are not abused or neglected....This has been reported over and over for the last 20 years, our forces are rusting out....you've read it we all have, each Canadian knows it, and knowing that very fact we have not connected the dots, rusted out military, and combat....we as a nation have sent our troops into combat with rusted out equipment or in some cases without the equipment needed period....so you have failed to protect us from anything....From a soldiers view piont it suggests that the majority does not support them at all...."

That is unfortunate because its not true. Yes we all know the military was neglected, but we were not in a prolonged war and citizens who are disconnected from the realities of war expect that the government would know what to do. The ministry of defence should have knowledgeable leadership that makes sure troops are properly equipped. THe fct that they send in troops without the right gear is borderline criminal, but the average Canadian has no clue. They had surplus money why didn't they use it when the war began.

I don't know if its my personal responsibiity, other than as a citizen. It's definitely the responsibility of the Minister. All I can do is jump up and down or write letters to the papers, but the government has the power to make decisions and move money around. As a soldier you would know the role of leadership, leaders should be held responsible for failures, not troops.

"Your side have been very good at swaying the majority of people who once agreed and supported the mission"

I don't belong to a "side". This should not be about sides. That comment makes me think you are just a CPC supporter playing a game here. Although I am anti-war in principle I believe any fight once started is on, and needs to be dealt with great seriousness. That is why I am not easily persuaded to engage in a fight unless there's no option, because I do not believe in fighting by half-measures. I understand how serious it is.

The government has all the power in the world to change things, to use the money to buy proper vehicles, flak jackets and equipment. They are making other decisions and thye are not telling us, the Canadaian people whats going on. So I don't understand how you can actually support them. Citizens are kept oblivious of these facts. I scour the news daily and I tell you, we hear nothing about these problems, only some vague headlines calling for more troops. The reason is, because the government knows that would truly outrage Canadians to find out they have done a shit job providing resources to troops, and if Canadians knew that they would get mad and protest it, and force them to end the war. But they don't want that... nor do they fix the problem.

[M.Dancer]

Its an example of the kind of abuse I was alluding to, imagine our troops protecting a pipeline.

I imagine our troops would be ready, willing and eager to defend any asset that is likely to imporve the lives of ordinary afghans and help them out of the 19th century. A pipleline can do just that...And I imagine the enemy is also ready and willing to attack the pipeline in order to keep the ordinary Afghan in the Dark Ages...

[Oleg Bach]

I imagine our troops would be ready, willing and eager to defend any asset that is likely to imporve the lives of ordinary afghans and help them out of the 19th century. A pipleline can do just that...And I imagine the enemy is also ready and willing to attack the pipeline in order to keep the ordinary Afghan in the Dark Ages...

Who the hell are we anyway? Time travelers who go back to the "Dark Ages" and the "19th century" _ To resuce the poor vortexed and trapped Afghanis? What makes everyone so sure that going forward into the future brings about real progress - look at us - are we civilized? We are the worst and most slick of the barbarians. It is none of our buisness if another group preferes to live in another era - What is it to you what they do? Absolutely nothing!

[Guest American Woman]

I imagine our troops would be ready, willing and eager to defend any asset that is likely to imporve the lives of ordinary afghans and help them out of the 19th century. A pipleline can do just that...And I imagine the enemy is also ready and willing to attack the pipeline in order to keep the ordinary Afghan in the Dark Ages...

I would like to know if this is true-- if people join the military to defend foreign assets. I always thought people signed up to defend their own nation and/or its allies.

Army Guy-- could you and/or any of the troops in your unit shed any light on this? I would really like to know how you feel about it. If my question is out of line, please forgive me; I ask only out of respect for your opinion.

[M.Dancer]

I would like to know if this is true-- if people join the military to defend foreign assets. I always thought people signed up to defend their own nation and/or its allies.

Afghanistan is our ally and our national interest. The more opportunity for gainful, legal employement, the higher the standard of living, the less likely someone throwing it away in an act of futile desparation.

[Oleg Bach]

Afghanistan is our ally and our national interest. The more opportunity for gainful, legal employement, the higher the standard of living, the less likely someone throwing it away in an act of futile desparation.

So they are our friends hugh? Yes their elite and our share the same damned values - we have courts that declare that child porno is art - and we have seniour tribal members in Afghanistan that rape young boys and call it entertainment...apparently our value system may be parallel - How can anyone take this seriously when the Canadian policy is for our troops to "turn a blind eye" to pedephelia - in effect condoning it...I don't get it - Afghanistan is just a nation of drug runners and has always been that - ever since the British made opium valuable....I guess they are still in league with the devil - both sides..

[Army Guy]

Its an example of the kind of abuse I was alluding to, imagine our troops protecting a pipeline. I doubt anybody signed on for missions like that. It is only an example of the kind of profiteering that threatens to abuse the loyalty of the troops for personal gains. In the US there is Dick Cheney's Haliburton. Canada is no different in the way business works to influence/ manipulate government. Not saying that is the only reason our troops are there now, but that is a constant threat that must be checked when corporations start telling our government what to do.

It's a "what if" situation, one that has not happen yet, nor will it until the current situation in Afgan is solved. That being said I'll re ask the question .... "If it is such a problem perhaps you can give us some examples of our political leaders licking the hands of big business whom are abusing our military.

You have said Canada is no different, then it should be easy to give us examples on how our past and present governments where influenced into sending troops over to afgan to support big bussiness.

I think neither of us is blaming the Canadian people. If anything has changed it's that Canadians do not believe in the mission. But Canadians should know if our troops are being neglected or under-funded by the government who have no problem helping banks even when there is no crisis. So I am interested in finding out more about this

I like yourself believe it is the citizens of Canada that are responsable for our current military state and status, they are the mechanism put in place to ensure we are protected. That being the case i find it hard to believe, that you which made this claim of the citizens being responsable to protect our military,do not even know of the current state of our military.

So me as a soldier are asking you why have you failed me....

I don't know if its my personal responsibiity, other than as a citizen. It's definitely the responsibility of the Minister. All I can do is jump up and down or write letters to the papers, but the government has the power to make decisions and move money around. As a soldier you would know the role of leadership, leaders should be held responsible for failures, not troops.

Which runs contray to your statement earlier on, you are a citizen, and you have made this claim, so how serious do you take this responsiblity....I'm well aware of the leadership role and how it plays out in my daily life....the military leadership have told our government on serveral occasions we as a military fighting force were not ready for this role....they have on more occasions than i can count have told our government we are not equiped for the defense of Canada. We also know that the government takes it's cue of the people, the voters, and they place they funding wherwe it will provide the most votes...health care, education....to name a few...and hey i agree...but at some place in time we need to decide, do we make a major investment back into the military, at the cost of education and health care , or do we forget about our defense capbilites all together....

If our leaders are responsable then make them accountable....that is your responseablity as you claimed it.

I don't belong to a "side". This should not be about sides. That comment makes me think you are just a CPC supporter playing a game here.

There are sides like it or not, from my prespective, as a soldier....i stand one one, and you on the other...and not because your anti war and i'm a hawk of sorts....but rather i support this mission because i think it is one of the few that don't have an agenda....there is no oil, but rather it's about people...and i'm not playing a game, but rather caught in the middle like a toy pupet....and the pupets are paying a cost with thier lives....

That is why I am not easily persuaded to engage in a fight unless there's no option, because I do not believe in fighting by half-measures. I understand how serious it is.

But that is what you've asked our nations soldiers to do....fight with half measures....

The government has all the power in the world to change things, to use the money to buy proper vehicles, flak jackets and equipment. They are making other decisions and thye are not telling us, the Canadaian people whats going on. So I don't understand how you can actually support them. Citizens are kept oblivious of these facts. I scour the news daily and I tell you, we hear nothing about these problems, only some vague headlines calling for more troops. The reason is, because the government knows that would truly outrage Canadians to find out they have done a shit job providing resources to troops, and if Canadians knew that they would get mad and protest it, and force them to end the war. But they don't want that... nor do they fix the problem.

Canada's military

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There is so many sites i can not put them all here, all dealing with our nations current military state....i find it hard to believe that you have not heard of our problems be it with Subs, tanks, Herc's , sea kings, trucks, iltis jeeps, LUVW jeeps, uniforms, etc etc and a multude of other problems that are mentioned weekly in the media...and that is just equipment side. So excuse me if i'm sceptical when you comment you have not heard anything....And you've claimed to be our protector....

[Oleg Bach]

Equip them fully or withdraw them - Why should one single soldier die due to the cheapness of some corporate civilian who could not even defend himself in a street fight? IF you are going to have a military - have one! You do not send your precious youth to a gun fight carrying a stick.

[Army Guy]

would like to know if this is true-- if people join the military to defend foreign assets. I always thought people signed up to defend their own nation and/or its allies.

Army Guy-- could you and/or any of the troops in your unit shed any light on this? I would really like to know how you feel about it. If my question is out of line, please forgive me; I ask only out of respect for your opinion

Soldiers join for thousands of reasons, most will say they joined to defend our nation, to serve our nation,our queen , or to follow in the parents footsteps....or for the adventure....

During a war or crisies things such as Pipelines, dams, manufacture centers, airports, major hyways...all get protected, by military resources...without them it effects the military, but more importantly it effects the other sides civilian population....these are the people that will at one piont in the operation demand something be done be it stop the war, or escalate it further....it is the people that decide....

Did i join to protect a pipe line, NO i did not, but then again i doubt the soldiers that took Vimy joined to do that either,....it is one of the thousands of jobs soldiers do during a conflict....

Edited November 14, 2008 by Army Guy

[Sir Bandelot]

I am only a protector as far as my ability to protest it in some way, or vote against it. I am only responsible as far as that small part goes. I share that responsibility with milions of other Canadians. If the mission proves to be a failure by our neglect, I accept 1/35,000,000 of the responsibility.

The minister of defence has much more power to do something, and much more detailed knowledge about what is going on, information coming from military leaders. And he has the ear of the Prime Minister.

Sorry Army Guy, if thats truly the case in Afghanistan. I'm just... sorry

[Army Guy]

I am only a protector as far as my ability to protest it in some way, or vote against it. I am only responsible as far as that small part goes. I share that responsibility with milions of other Canadians. If the mission proves to be a failure by our neglect, I accept 1/35,000,000 of the responsibility.

The minister of defence has much more power to do something, and much more detailed knowledge about what is going on, information coming from military leaders. And he has the ear of the Prime Minister.

Sorry Army Guy, if thats truly the case in Afghanistan. I'm just... sorry

Look this is my third tour here in Afgan, i've been doing this for sometime now, i pretty much cemented in my beliefs now, i think this is a noble mission, one in which our nation with so much to offer can really contribute something....to the people of Afgan, to accomplish something here where no other nation has lets say for a long time. give them peace to move foward on thier own....

I also know that you have cemented your ideals, which is good...it's one of the rights i stand up for everyday....but if you are going to take a stand then do so...grab onto to it by the balls, and squezze....History has shown us there are plenty of examples of things changing across the nation all started by one man....wonder how far cancer research would be today without the efforts of one man terry fox....and while we all may not be terry fox, never count yourself as 1 of 35 million....one of the countless numbers that have no say....A universty professor, in ottawa whom has the same vioce as you have, manged to get his piont heard, nation wide, in ref to Prisoner of war handling.

If you not willing to do everything you can for your stand, then really it's not much of a stand, and you've lost already.....it was not that important to you....might as well support the mission and let me do my job....

[kengs333]

Look this is my third tour here in Afgan, i've been doing this for sometime now, i pretty much cemented in my beliefs now, i think this is a noble mission, one in which our nation with so much to offer can really contribute something....to the people of Afgan, to accomplish something here where no other nation has lets say for a long time. give them peace to move foward on thier own....

That's what you have to believe though, for one reason or another. If you actually looked at the truth about what's going on, I doubt you'd really feel such a strong conviction. I'm sure there were men in the British army in 19th century who felt that what they were accomplishing in Afghanistan was for some noble purpose, but look what has happened since then--and who remembers the men who died all those years ago for something that turned out to be in vain?

I also know that you have cemented your ideals, which is good...it's one of the rights i stand up for everyday....but if you are going to take a stand then do so...grab onto to it by the balls, and squezze....History has shown us there are plenty of examples of things changing across the nation all started by one man....wonder how far cancer research would be today without the efforts of one man terry fox....and while we all may not be terry fox, never count yourself as 1 of 35 million....one of the countless numbers that have no say....A universty professor, in ottawa whom has the same vioce as you have, manged to get his piont heard, nation wide, in ref to Prisoner of war handling.

Boy, you just don't get it, do you? You people in the military really love to thank yourselves on behald of all Canadians--especially those who don't agree with you--in order to validate yourselves, don't you? And likening yourself to Terry Fox is a complete joke.

History shows that the military is more prone to inhibit rather than protect people's rights. We can only be thankful that the Canadian military is as small as it is--and underfunded. Even with its small size it has enough of an influence on politics...

If you not willing to do everything you can for your stand, then really it's not much of a stand, and you've lost already.....it was not that important to you....might as well support the mission and let me do my job....

Why don't you get a job where you can do something positive for this world without having the capacity to kill? Work for an NGO in a warzone--but that takes balls, I guess...

[kengs333]

I am only a protector as far as my ability to protest it in some way, or vote against it. I am only responsible as far as that small part goes. I share that responsibility with milions of other Canadians. If the mission proves to be a failure by our neglect, I accept 1/35,000,000 of the responsibility.

The minister of defence has much more power to do something, and much more detailed knowledge about what is going on, information coming from military leaders. And he has the ear of the Prime Minister.

Sorry Army Guy, if thats truly the case in Afghanistan. I'm just... sorry

We hear very little about what it really is like in Afghanistan. The fact of the matter is that Canada has simply become another western country meddling in the affairs of a foreign country on behalf of a puppet regime. Some may want us there, but most apparently do not. With the Canadians and others racing through their streets at breakneck speed, running down and gunning down civilians on a regular basis, it should come as no surprise. The fact of the matter is that Canada was there to support the search for Osama bin-Laden, but if he's not dead no one really seems to be able to find him. Whether or not Afghanistan is a democracy or not, is not our problem.

[kengs333]

So they are our friends hugh? Yes their elite and our share the same damned values - we have courts that declare that child porno is art - and we have seniour tribal members in Afghanistan that rape young boys and call it entertainment...apparently our value system may be parallel - How can anyone take this seriously when the Canadian policy is for our troops to "turn a blind eye" to pedephelia - in effect condoning it...I don't get it - Afghanistan is just a nation of drug runners and has always been that - ever since the British made opium valuable....I guess they are still in league with the devil - both sides..

You see, M.Dancer's post typifies the nonsense that is involved with this issue. Afghanistan is a desolate, impoverished nation--would be with or without war. While it would be good to see them live in peace, that's something that they need to determine, and if it doesn't work out then that's really there problem. This is exactly the policy that we pursue with scores of other countries that have major social issues; but since they don't have oil or gas... who cares, right?

[White Doors]

We hear very little about what it really is like in Afghanistan.

Well we have a fellow you are mocking who is on his 3rd tour there...

So maybe you just aren't listening to things you don't like to hear.

So nice that MLW has become a place where mocking soldiers is a cause celebre however.

pity

[White Doors]

You see, M.Dancer's post typifies the nonsense that is involved with this issue. Afghanistan is a desolate, impoverished nation--would be with or without war. While it would be good to see them live in peace, that's something that they need to determine, and if it doesn't work out then that's really there problem. This is exactly the policy that we pursue with scores of other countries that have major social issues; but since they don't have oil or gas... who cares, right?

Afghanistan has neither oil or gas...

But I doubt that would change your ill-informed opinion.