Won't back crime bills, MPs say

[scribblet]

Really, perhaps we should take the Liberals up on this, and let them bring on another election

GLORIA GALLOWAY

From Wednesday's Globe and Mail

November 5, 2008 at 4:21 AM EST

OTTAWA — Opposition MPs, including Liberals who have worked on justice issues, say they would plunge the country into another federal election before agreeing to a slate of Conservative proposals that would see convicted criminals treated more harshly.

The measures, including tougher penalties for young offenders and the reduced use of conditional sentences that allow criminals to serve their time at home, are likely to be among the first tests of Liberal willingness to challenge Stephen Harper's new minority government.

more here http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/sto...y/politics/home

[Argus]

They always talk tough, but the Liberals will fold, as usual. No matter what mouth noise they make they know that not a lot of even their constituency has much sympathy for criminals. And outside Quebec, most people are intelligent enoough to understand that allowing life sentences for teenagers does not mean putting 14 year olds into adult prison.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Charles Anthony
deleted re-copied previous post

[madmax]

They always talk tough, but the Liberals will fold, as usual. No matter what mouth noise they make they know that not a lot of even their constituency has much sympathy for criminals. And outside Quebec, most people are intelligent enoough to understand that allowing life sentences for teenagers does not mean putting 14 year olds into adult prison.

I think the Liberals could take their ball home. The Crime bills, regardless of what you may personally think, did not have traction anywhere where the CPC needed to make gains. If there was another snap election, with "Crime" as the ballot question, it would not lead to a Majority for the CPC.

Most people panned the bill, and more particularly, those little flyers mailed to people that said...

"NOT ON OUR DIME" which actually "WERE ON OUR DIME".

The CPC have peaked, and if they put forth a bill that is unnacceptable to the LPC, BQ and NDP, then the next election would be a free forall and I would not bet on the CPC.

If the CPC put forth the budget, no matter how wacky, foolish or incompetent, no matter how intelligent, smart or competent, and the LPC voted against it, and the government went down, then the CPC would most likely receive a majority and the Liberals discover that life can be worse after Dion.

[Argus]

I think the Liberals could take their ball home. The Crime bills, regardless of what you may personally think, did not have traction anywhere where the CPC needed to make gains. If there was another snap election, with "Crime" as the ballot question, it would not lead to a Majority for the CPC.

Don't think so, huh? Most immigrants come from very authoritarian cultures, and I have never met one who didn't question why we were so incredibly soft on criminals.

Most people panned the bill

Perhaps that was your experience. For me, even my Liberal friends, who generally disdain the tories, supported stiffer punishment for criminals.

[Mr.Canada]

This is obviously a step in the right direction. If the Liberals, well if Dion takes us back to the polls over crime he will be crucified for voting against this bill. Labeled he didn't get it done and then being soft on violent crime. Hello majority. Our PM must be wringing his hands daring the Liberals and Mr. Dion to start crying again.

Obviously there are people here who agree with anything the left says and vilifies anything the CPC says but going to election with a being soft on crime label stuck to them when honest people are being gunned down by ruthless thugs.

[jdobbin]

Really, perhaps we should take the Liberals up on this, and let them bring on another election

It is up to the Tories if they want to make it a confidence vote. Nothing says it has to be and if they make every bill on every issue a confidence vote, we are headed back to the polls in the next several weeks.

[Mr.Canada]

It is up to the Tories if they want to make it a confidence vote. Nothing says it has to be and if they make every bill on every issue a confidence vote, we are headed back to the polls in the next several weeks.

And then Dion will be crushed even worse as no one has any faith in him, not even his own party. As someone said The Liberals talk tough but always fold and vote with the Tories or don't show up for the vote. The Liberals are broke and cannot afford another election therefore will have almost no ads running and as we saw in the US recently, the party with the most money usually wins.

This post is just my opinion as is everyone's else here so please don't smear me with one liners or other nonsense. So don't sniffle about cites and other crybaby games this is just my opinion.

[Topaz]

And then Dion will be crushed even worse as no one has any faith in him, not even his own party. As someone said The Liberals talk tough but always fold and vote with the Tories or don't show up for the vote. The Liberals are broke and cannot afford another election therefore will have almost no ads running and as we saw in the US recently, the party with the most money usually wins.

This post is just my opinion as is everyone's else here so please don't smear me with one liners or other nonsense. So don't sniffle about cites and other crybaby games this is just my opinion.

I wouldn't put it passed Harper that his plan is to wipe out the Liberal party so that the Cons will be the ONLY party to rule Canada. Harper said he wants to turn Canada blue with Conservatism, make the Red Maple to Blue. The Libs have money problems and all Harper has to do is keep having elections and bled the Libs dry. IF he does this he would be doing it not for the good of Canada but for the good of the Cons and then nothing will stop the government from turning Canada into North America with the US. BTW, will Harper keep his word of bring the troops home in 2011 if the war is still going on?

[Alta4ever]

I wouldn't put it passed Harper that his plan is to wipe out the Liberal party so that the Cons will be the ONLY party to rule Canada. Harper said he wants to turn Canada blue with Conservatism, make the Red Maple to Blue. The Libs have money problems and all Harper has to do is keep having elections and bled the Libs dry. IF he does this he would be doing it not for the good of Canada but for the good of the Cons and then nothing will stop the government from turning Canada into North America with the US. BTW, will Harper keep his word of bring the troops home in 2011 if the war is still going on?

If Harper forced an election the cons would be booted from office. It must be the opposition that does it to decimate the liberals.

[jdobbin]

And then Dion will be crushed even worse as no one has any faith in him, not even his own party. As someone said The Liberals talk tough but always fold and vote with the Tories or don't show up for the vote. The Liberals are broke and cannot afford another election therefore will have almost no ads running and as we saw in the US recently, the party with the most money usually wins.

All true. The Liberals are broke. They have a lameduck leader.

It still is up to the Tories whether they want to make all bills confidence bills. If they hope for the Liberals to fold every time and then shout cowards across the floor, it probably won't work. Harper is going to try and wound potential Liberal candidates by alienating their supporters and bullying Liberals into backing down with threats of an election.

Confidence does not have to be attached to every single bill not related to money.

If Harper wants an election, he will continue to play the brinkmanship game.

This post is just my opinion as is everyone's else here so please don't smear me with one liners or other nonsense. So don't sniffle about cites and other crybaby games this is just my opinion.

I think you have me confused with someone else.

[jdobbin]

If Harper forced an election the cons would be booted from office. It must be the opposition that does it to decimate the liberals.

So making every bill a confidence motion is not forcing an election? I should remind you that it isn't standard minority practice in Canada to make every bill a confidence vote.

So...who exactly is forcing an election?

Edited November 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[White Doors]

This attitude again shows the hubris of a certain section of the Liberal party in my opinion.

It is this very attitude that the Liberals need to exorcise from the party in it's next leadership convention.

I mean they just got handed their largest defeat in modern history and some members are already talking about not supporting bills (that by the way are supported by 80% plus of the population by the last polling I saw on it).

As it was one of the CPC's central promoses,, I think it should be a confidence motion. Call their bluff and give them some much deserved modesty which they just can't seem to get through their melons any other way.

[Alta4ever]

This attitude again shows the hubris of a certain section of the Liberal party in my opinion.

It is this very attitude that the Liberals need to exorcise from the party in it's next leadership convention.

I mean they just got handed their largest defeat in modern history and some members are already talking about not supporting bills (that by the way are supported by 80% plus of the population by the last polling I saw on it).

As it was one of the CPC's central promoses,, I think it should be a confidence motion. Call their bluff and give them some much deserved modesty which they just can't seem to get through their melons any other way.

I thought calling their bluff was making bullies out of the conservatives.

[jdobbin]

This attitude again shows the hubris of a certain section of the Liberal party in my opinion.

If the Tories take the position that their bill cannot be amended, cannot be debated and must be accepted in total or an election will be held, the hubris is with the Tories.

Attaching confidence to a non-money bill and showing no sign of compromise is a little silly in a minority government.

It is this very attitude that the Liberals need to exorcise from the party in it's next leadership convention.

I mean they just got handed their largest defeat in modern history and some members are already talking about not supporting bills (that by the way are supported by 80% plus of the population by the last polling I saw on it).

What poll was that?

The majority of the crime bills the Tories have proposed in the past have been supported or passed by the Liberals.

The Tories want to put omnibus bills through without letting Parliament do its job of proposing changes and amendments. The take it or leave it bullying and brinkmanship has to stop.

The Tories attaching confidence to every measure is unheard of in a minority government.

As it was one of the CPC's central promoses,, I think it should be a confidence motion. Call their bluff and give them some much deserved modesty which they just can't seem to get through their melons any other way.

Since Quebec didn't think too much of the last crime proposals, let's see if Harper gets it through his head that he won't have a breakthrough there as a result of the legislation.

Harper wants an election any way possible. He will call it himself if the Liberals support every bill from now until the leadership convention. He will still claim Parliamentary dysfunction in his zero sum politics.

[Alta4ever]

If the Tories take the position that their bill cannot be amended, cannot be debated and must be accepted in total or an election will be held, the hubris is with the Tories.

Attaching confidence to a non-money bill and showing no sign of compromise is a little silly in a minority government.

What poll was that?

The majority of the crime bills the Tories have proposed in the past have been supported or passed by the Liberals.

The Tories want to put omnibus bills through without letting Parliament do its job of proposing changes and amendments. The take it or leave it bullying and brinkmanship has to stop.

The Tories attaching confidence to every measure is unheard of in a minority government.

Since Quebec didn't think too much of the last crime proposals, let's see if Harper gets it through his head that he won't have a breakthrough there as a result of the legislation.

Harper wants an election any way possible. He will call it himself if the Liberals support every bill from now until the leadership convention. He will still claim Parliamentary dysfunction in his zero sum politics.

A key plank is a key plank and I hope they do ram it through parliment. The liberals have already started playing games so bring them on the conservatives have broad shoulds and can takew being called bullies, its time to stop spoon feeding Quebec and the three large urban areas. Let them choke on the fact that they don't know what is best for the rest of Canada, and that Canada doesn't revovle around Quebec, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.

[Mr.Canada]

I wouldn't put it passed Harper that his plan is to wipe out the Liberal party so that the Cons will be the ONLY party to rule Canada. Harper said he wants to turn Canada blue with Conservatism, make the Red Maple to Blue. The Libs have money problems and all Harper has to do is keep having elections and bled the Libs dry. IF he does this he would be doing it not for the good of Canada but for the good of the Cons and then nothing will stop the government from turning Canada into North America with the US. BTW, will Harper keep his word of bring the troops home in 2011 if the war is still going on?

That sounds reasonable and you also bring up another interesting tidbit. Barrack Obama wants to withdraw troops from Iraq and boost troops in Afghanistan and he is meeting with the UK PM Brown to ask him to send more troops to that country. It's going to be interesting what he has to say to PM Harper regarding that. I heard this on talk radio this morning and I haven't verified it, it is just what I've heard as it was reported.

All true. The Liberals are broke. They have a lameduck leader.

It still is up to the Tories whether they want to make all bills confidence bills. If they hope for the Liberals to fold every time and then shout cowards across the floor, it probably won't work. Harper is going to try and wound potential Liberal candidates by alienating their supporters and bullying Liberals into backing down with threats of an election.

Confidence does not have to be attached to every single bill not related to money.

If Harper wants an election, he will continue to play the brinkmanship game.

I think you have me confused with someone else.

Agreed and no jdobbin, this isn't directed towards you at all, we always have good back and forth. We get heated, which is to be expected but we always keep it in perspective with each other.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[jdobbin]

A key plank is a key plank and I hope they do ram it through parliment. The liberals have already started playing games so bring them on the conservatives have broad shoulds and can takew being called bullies, its time to stop spoon feeding Quebec and the three large urban areas. Let them choke on the fact that they don't know what is best for the rest of Canada, and that Canada doesn't revovle around Quebec, Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver.

The Liberals are doing their job as Official Opposition. As Harper used to say, it isn't the job of the Opposition to support the government's agenda. It is their mandate to be critics of it and improve it or oppose it.

Confidence measures on non-money bills is a bullying tactic.

[Mr.Canada]

The Liberals are doing their job as Official Opposition. As Harper used to say, it isn't the job of the Opposition to support the government's agenda. It is their mandate to be critics of it and improve it or oppose it.

Confidence measures on non-money bills is a bullying tactic.

More than anything the Tories need to work together with the opposition and not appear to be inflexible. If the Tories need to make some concessions to get the bill to pass then that is fine by me as long as the new crime bill still has teeth.

I think everyone can agree that the protection of Canada and its citizens is a priority when presenting the new crime bill and the system is in need of some strengthening.

I wouldn't want the Tories to start pushing bills through and saying in essence ' vote in through or else'. If that were to happen it would appear arrogant and they have already painted the Liberals with that brush. Doing so would make the Tories appear suspect and hypocritical.

Edited November 5, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[jdobbin]

More than anything the Tories need to work together with the opposition and not appear to be inflexible. If the Tories need to make some concessions to get the bill to pass then that is fine by me as long as the new crime bill still has teeth.

Give the Liberals something to work with and stop the shouts of cowards across the floor and threats to go to an election every five minutes and a bill might get through.

I think everyone can agree that the protection of Canada and its citizens is a priority when presenting the new crime bill and the system is in need of some strengthening.

If the hyperpartisanship continues, we will see another election in six months. Voter fatigue gave Canada a poor turn out. Voter anger could do a lot to whoever gets the blame for not working together.

[White Doors]

If the Tories take the position that their bill cannot be amended, cannot be debated and must be accepted in total or an election will be held, the hubris is with the Tories.

Attaching confidence to a non-money bill and showing no sign of compromise is a little silly in a minority government.

What poll was that?

The majority of the crime bills the Tories have proposed in the past have been supported or passed by the Liberals.

The Tories want to put omnibus bills through without letting Parliament do its job of proposing changes and amendments. The take it or leave it bullying and brinkmanship has to stop.

The Tories attaching confidence to every measure is unheard of in a minority government.

Since Quebec didn't think too much of the last crime proposals, let's see if Harper gets it through his head that he won't have a breakthrough there as a result of the legislation.

Harper wants an election any way possible. He will call it himself if the Liberals support every bill from now until the leadership convention. He will still claim Parliamentary dysfunction in his zero sum politics.

All the Liberals will have to do if they don't want an election is support the CPC's promises which they won the election on. If they want to hold up the democratic process, the Canadian public will judge them even more harshly on an early election of their doing.

[jdobbin]

All the Liberals will have to do if they don't want an election is support the CPC's promises which they won the election on. If they want to hold up the democratic process, the Canadian public will judge them even more harshly on an early election of their doing.

The actual wording of the the legislation was not included in the platform. If the Tories do an omnibus will with a take it or we go to an election, it is grandstanding bullying. Their election promise was also to stick to a fixed election date. Calling confidence on non-money bills is just an excuse to break that promise.

It just isn't the tradition in Canadian Parliaments. The Tories making it so is just brinkmanship.

The Tories telling the Liberals support our entire legislative agenda or else is hubris in the extreme.

Edited November 5, 2008 by jdobbin

[Alta4ever]

The Liberals are doing their job as Official Opposition. As Harper used to say, it isn't the job of the Opposition to support the government's agenda. It is their mandate to be critics of it and improve it or oppose it.

Confidence measures on non-money bills is a bullying tactic.

No it makes the opposition accountable for what they say.

[jdobbin]

No it makes the opposition accountable for what they say.

So you support confidence on every single bill in the House? I suspect Harper would have called that bullying when he was in Opposition.

[White Doors]

The actual wording of the the legislation was not included in the platform. If the Tories do an omnibus will with a take it or we go to an election, it is grandstanding bullying. Their election promise was also to stick to a fixed election date. Calling confidence on non-money bills is just an excuse to break that promise.

It just isn't the tradition in Canadian Parliaments. The Tories making it so is just brinkmanship.

The Tories telling the Liberals support our entire legislative agenda or else is hubris in the extreme.

I do not think asking the newly neutered opposition to support one of their key election promises is bullying, but call it what you will - it matters not to me.

If the Liberals want an election they can have one, if they don't then.. they don't. It's entirely up to them.

Regardless, the point is moot, the Liberals will cave in like they always do.

It's easy to do when you stand for nothing.

Edited November 5, 2008 by White Doors

[Alta4ever]

So you support confidence on every single bill in the House? I suspect Harper would have called that bullying when he was in Opposition.

We don't know what Harper would have said, but we do know that the CPC tried on numerious occasions to bring down the Liberal minority government.