What if we agreed to re-locate Israel?

[M.Dancer]

Wrong.

It was a Dominion, just like Canada was at one point, from 1907 to 1949--self-governing from 1907 to 1934...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominion_of_Newfoundland

right..so from 1934....

The dominion was self-governing from 1907 to 1934 when it voluntarily gave up self-government and reverted to direct control from London — one of the few countries that has ever voluntarily given up direct self-rule. Between 1934 and 1949 a six-member Commission of Government (plus a governor) administered Newfoundland, reporting to the Dominions

[DogOnPorch]

I'm not so sure that the Jews were initially "invited". The migrated into Europe from the Mediterranean region long after the European kingdoms were established. Whatever the case, it was Western Europe that eventually became dominant region in Europe, so... if you're implying that this was in part due to the fact that Jews had been persecuted and existed in relatively low numbers compared to Eastern Europe, it is an interesting thesis...

Yeah, of course "rollseye" at the notion that the Jews "did kill Christ" but the fact of the matter is that the Jews did engage in vicious persecutions of the early Christians, so it only stands to reason that centuries later when they're a little down on their luck and start to filter into Europe looking like a bunch of homeless paupers that the local Christians, being human, weren't exactly going to welcome them with open arms... I'm sure Jews would be just as "tolerant" if a colony of neo-Nazis established themselves in Israel...

Alos, as of yet, I've never heard of the Jews offering a formal apology for the tens, if not hundred, of thousands of Christians that they persecuted.

Shows what you think you know as opposed to what you actually know. I doubt you even have a clue as to who Casimir III is (start up that Google). Re: Jewish persecution of Christians. I doubt you have a clue as to who St Stephen is, either. Get-a-Googlin'.

As for Jews in Western Europe. I also highly doubt you have even clue one as to why they left Western Europe in the first place and who were the main players in the Alhambra Decree...Google again. Should keep you out of trouble for a while.

---------------------------------------------------------

Everybody believes in something and everybody, by virtue of the fact that they believe in something, uses that something to support their own existence.

---Frank Zappa

[Candice]

Only because a man named Omar/Umar...a real azzhole by all accounts...said it to be so. Pray away. Five times a day if you must.

-------------------------------------

Man as an individual is a genius. But men in the mass form the headless monster, a great, brutish idiot that goes where prodded.

---Charlie Chaplin

Right .....

Im assuming that post is supposed to have some humour but haven't spotted it yet.

What were the Muslims doing with that land before the Zionist settlers allegedly "took" it?

Living on it. Not the Muslims fault the Jews got chucked out by the Romans. They had no hand to play in that so why should they be punished for it.

Really? What was it before 630 AD?

I assume that you disagree with the fact that Jews have lived in the area for 5000 years?

Was it Arab land? really? What was Irael before 1948?

What was Israel before WW1? Do you know? Do you care?

There was no such thing as Israel before WW1.

There was a largely inhabited Jewish land in History but they left the land and the Brits took it.

I think we can all safely say Middle East in Arab land now.

Edited November 26, 2008 by Candice

[DogOnPorch]

Right .....

Im assuming that post is supposed to have some humour but haven't spotted it yet.

Anything that causes folks to stick their butts in the air 5 times a day makes me laugh. Omar was merely a man...yet he decided the Jewish temple site was the very place Mohammed ascended to heaven at. Good place for a large mosque. Asking for trouble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(637)

Living on it. Not the Muslims fault the Jews got chucked out by the Romans. They had no hand to play in that so why should they be punished for it.

Perhaps because the Jews remember the Grand Mufti (Mohammad Haj Amin al-Husayni) a bit too well. His nephew Yassar Arafat also ran the place. Now you have both Hamas and Hezbollah giving the Nazi salute and goose-stepping on parade. Me thinks things haven't changed all that much since WW2 in this part of the planet.

The Mufti's role in the Final Solution and the creation of Israel might be ignored by you and many others...but I doubt anyone touched by the Holocaust will ever forget this monster. He was a full obergruppenfuhrer in the SS. Had his own SS division made up of Bosnian and Arab Muslim volunteers. Liked to kill Jews...gassed a chamber-load himself at Auschwitz-Birkenau. Took time to reroute trains full of Jewish children set for deportation to the death camps. Died peacefully in 1974...never being brought to task for his role. Still a hero in the Arab world. His nephew Arafat...well, he was given a 'peace prize' for blowing up buses. Nuff said.

There was no such thing as Israel before WW1.

There was a largely inhabited Jewish land in History but they left the land and the Brits took it.

I think we can all safely say Middle East in Arab land now.

Pssst...the answer is the Ottoman Turks. You know...the bad guys in Lawrence of Arabia. Held the entire Levant for centuries. With British help, they were removed by force. Maybe we should hand it all over to them, eh?

-------------------------------------------------

If you saw a dog going to be crushed under a car, wouldn't you help him?

---Oskar Schindler

[BC_chick]

Let's see, on the one side we have those who believe Jews got kicked out 6 centuries before Islam even started, and that Muslims ruled and/or self-governed while maintaining a vast majority of the population for 14 centuries.

On the other hand, we have those who say a handful of the population was always Jewish so they have a right to take over and displace the rest.

I see.

[DogOnPorch]

Blame the Grand Mufti and his ilk. If not for this bast*rd, the Arabs in Palestine would have their own country right now.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

---Yasser Arafat

[BC_chick]

Blame the Grand Mufti and his ilk. If not for this bast*rd, the Arabs in Palestine would have their own country right now.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Peace for us means the destruction of Israel. We are preparing for an all-out war, a war which will last for generations.

---Yasser Arafat

Why should he have accepted the state of Israel? No a priori reasons please, we're talking strictly pre-WWII.

[DogOnPorch]

Why should he have accepted the state of Israel? No a priori reasons please, we're talking strictly pre-WWII.

He should have been executed for his role in the Holocaust...not accepting or rejecting anything. It wasn't his land to accept or reject. But the Arabs still kept him as their leader knowing full well his aims and past actions.

My point is that this fellow's poison still exists in the actions of the Palestinian Arabs. Since I don't think you'll bother to find out his role, it might as well be up to me to at least put it out there.

--------------------------------------------------------------

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.

---Yasser Arafat

[BC_chick]

He should have been executed for his role in the Holocaust...not accepting or rejecting anything. It wasn't his land to accept or reject. But the Arabs still kept him as their leader knowing full well his aims and past actions.

My point is that this fellow's poison still exists in the actions of the Palestinian Arabs. Since I don't think you'll bother to find out his role, it might as well be up to me to at least put it out there.

--------------------------------------------------------------

We plan to eliminate the state of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian state. We will make life unbearable for Jews by psychological warfare and population explosion. We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem.

---Yasser Arafat

I see, so because he partook in the holocaust (which is debatable, but for argument's sake we'll take it as fact)... that gives Israel the right to exist on Palestinian land instead of on the land belonging to the culprit of the holocaust (Germany)?

Edited November 26, 2008 by BC_chick

[M.Dancer]

I see, so because he partook in the holocaust (which is debatable, but for argument's sake we'll take it as fact)... that gives Israel the right to exist on Palestinian land and not the culprit of the holocaust (Germany)?

False preposition. It wasn't Palestinian land...it was Ottoman land and it was Ottoman land before those Arabs were even self indentfying themselves and Palesstinians. What gave Israel the right to live there are the UN and the British who were trustees over the Transjordan protectorate.....What gives them the right now is the IDF.

[DogOnPorch]

I see, so because he partook in the holocaust (which is debatable, but for argument's sake we'll take it as fact)... that gives Israel the right to exist on Palestinian land instead of on the land belonging to the culprit of the holocaust (Germany)?

Debatable? He was what he was...a Nazi. My uncle (dead) served under him in the 13th SS and the 369th Kroat.

------------------------

The best political weapon is the weapon of terror. Cruelty commands respect. Men may hate us. But, we don't ask for their love; only for their fear.

---Heinrich Himmler

[BC_chick]

Debatable? He was what he was...a Nazi. My uncle (dead) served under him in the 13th SS and the 369th Kroat.

There you go again getting all emotional instead of staying focussed.

So.... because he was a Nazi/worked with the Nazi/whatever.... that gives Israel the right to exist on Palestinian land instead of Nazi land (Germany)?

[M.Dancer]

There you go again getting all emotional instead of staying focussed.

So.... because he was a Nazi/worked with the Nazi/whatever.... that gives Israel the right to exist on Palestinian land instead of Nazi land (Germany)?

None, but they aren't....move along here, nothing to see but red herrings which always stink of fish...

[Ontario Loyalist]

right..so from 1934....

The dominion was self-governing from 1907 to 1934 when it voluntarily gave up self-government and reverted to direct control from London — one of the few countries that has ever voluntarily given up direct self-rule. Between 1934 and 1949 a six-member Commission of Government (plus a governor) administered Newfoundland, reporting to the Dominions

right..so from 1934....

It remained a Dominion.

Just admit it: you were wrong. As it states the quotation you provide, Newfoundland became a country in 1907.

That said, I don't even know why I care or waste my time with your laughable historical ignorance.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Shows what you think you know as opposed to what you actually know. I doubt you even have a clue as to who Casimir III is (start up that Google). Re: Jewish persecution of Christians. I doubt you have a clue as to who St Stephen is, either. Get-a-Googlin'.

As for Jews in Western Europe. I also highly doubt you have even clue one as to why they left Western Europe in the first place and who were the main players in the Alhambra Decree...Google again. Should keep you out of trouble for a while.

So how does Spain suddenly come to represent all of Western Europe?

Still, I'm interested in the theory that you seem to be implying: there was an expulsion of Jews from Western Europe, and subsequently Western Europe became the dominant region in Europe, not to mention the world. Are you suggesting that there is a connection here?

Instead of getting all huffy and sarcastic, why don't you just discuss the issue in a rational, measured manner?

[M.Dancer]

That said, I don't even know why I care or waste my time with your laughable historical ignorance.

Because you aren't that smart to begin with I guess....that's why you assume it became a country when in fact it didn't...it was ruled by the Motherland....just like the British protectorate of the Transjordan....

I know why I waste my time with you...I'm on a mission from Dog toring b knowledge to the mouth breathing classes....

[Ontario Loyalist]

False preposition. It wasn't Palestinian land...it was Ottoman land and it was Ottoman land before those Arabs were even self indentfying themselves and Palesstinians. What gave Israel the right to live there are the UN and the British who were trustees over the Transjordan protectorate.....What gives them the right now is the IDF.

So what happens when the IDF fails to defend Israel--what excuse will you come up with for its existence. Moreover, why do you even care what happens to Israel? What makes it any different than scores of other political entities whose existence is threatened by external and internal forces? I suppose I should suggest that you concern yourself more with Canada, but seeing that you are such an ardent supporter of the Conservative party--which is probably Canada's greatest internal threat at the moment--that would be redundant.

[M.Dancer]

........, but seeing that you are such an ardent supporter of the Conservative party--which is probably Canada's greatest internal threat at the moment--that would be redundant.

I have mentioned you're the butter knife in a drawer full of scalpels?

[Ontario Loyalist]

Because you aren't that smart to begin with I guess....that's why you assume it became a country when in fact it didn't...it was ruled by the Motherland....just like the British protectorate of the Transjordan....

So you're saying that Newfoundland didn't become a country in 1907 when it attained the status of Dominion?

3. Dominion - one of the self-governing nations in the British Commonwealth

body politic, country, nation, res publica, commonwealth, state, land - a politically organized body of people under a single government; "the state has elected a new president"; "African nations"; "students who had come to the nation's capitol"; "the country's largest manufacturer"; "an industrialized land"

[M.Dancer]

So you're saying that Newfoundland didn't become a country in 1907 when it attained the status of Dominion?

Comprehension is really tough for you I see. Why not go back to where this line started and read slowly, forming the words with your lips as you go...

[BC_chick]

So what happens when the IDF fails to defend Israel--what excuse will you come up with for its existence. Moreover, why do you even care what happens to Israel? What makes it any different than scores of other political entities whose existence is threatened by external and internal forces? I suppose I should suggest that you concern yourself more with Canada, but seeing that you are such an ardent supporter of the Conservative party--which is probably Canada's greatest internal threat at the moment--that would be redundant.

IDF is yet another a priori reason for Israel's existence.... as are all the justifications.

[bush_cheney2004]

Let's see, on the one side we have those who believe Jews got kicked out 6 centuries before Islam even started, and that Muslims ruled and/or self-governed while maintaining a vast majority of the population for 14 centuries.

On the other hand, we have those who say a handful of the population was always Jewish so they have a right to take over and displace the rest.

Talk is cheap. Nobody has the right to land....they only have the right to defend temporary possession.

[Ontario Loyalist]

Comprehension is really tough for you I see. Why not go back to where this line started and read slowly, forming the words with your lips as you go...

Just answer the question.

[BC_chick]

Talk is cheap. Nobody has the right to land....they only have the right to defend temporary possession.

I was merely summing up the two opposing views as I saw them on this thread. You're now getting into the philosophical discussion about the concept of land ownership.... way beyond the scope of this argument.

[M.Dancer]

Absurd excuse. Is that what they teach you to respond with down at the synogogue?

Absurd question.

It only seems absurd in the context of your incomprehensible post. You ask for a formal apology....why? There was no formal perscution..if you believe there was...ah lets say for example, an auto de fe or a fatwa...please be so kind and post it, otherwise your post it just nonsense.