Isn't it time to slow down immigration?

[Hcheh]

Around 70% of Americans consider themselves christian. I doubt they see Christmas as anything but a christian holiday. The numbers for Canada are similar.

Many people say they are Catholic, Christian, Jewish but they do not practise it. For example, among many reasons, a lot of people say they are a religion because of family background.

[M.Dancer]

Many people say they are Catholic, Christian, Jewish but they do not practise it. For example, among many reasons, a lot of people say they are a religion because of family background.

We aren't discussing whether they go to church, feel they should go to church or haven't gone to church...but how they identify themselves.

Wouldn't you agree that people who identify themselves as Christian are likely to see Christmas as a Christian holiday?

[Hcheh]

We aren't discussing whether they go to church, feel they should go to church or haven't gone to church...but how they identify themselves.

Wouldn't you agree that people who identify themselves as Christian are likely to see Christmas as a Christian holiday?

Not really, not everybody who identifies himself/herself as a christian necessarily celebrates the birth of Jesus Christ. Like I said, the holiday has been so commercialized that it could be considered a secular holiday. You can label it however you want, but through people's actions, it is a secular holiday.

Anyhow, what is there about Christmas on public display that offends anybody? It's mostly Santa Claus and Christmas trees.

[Hcheh]

Besides, back to the original argument, Christmas does not imply an official Christian religion. You are able to take leave whenever it is a religious holiday of your own kind (Jewish holidays, Eid, whatever)

[M.Dancer]

You can label it however you want, but through people's actions, it is a secular holiday.

So in your mind, even if the majority think of it as the celebration of Christ's Birth, it's a secular holiday?

Anyhow, what is there about Christmas on public display that offends anybody? It's mostly Santa Claus and Christmas trees.

Well, I'm sure you know that the Santa part means Saint...and the northern european symbolism of tree that retains its leaves in the dead of winter....

[Hcheh]

So in your mind, even if the majority think of it as the celebration of Christ's Birth, it's a secular holiday?

Well, I'm sure you know that the Santa part means Saint...and the northern european symbolism of tree that retains its leaves in the dead of winter....

but in our modern society, who really thinks of Santa as a saint, and who perceives a Christmas tree symbolically? Who really thinks about the birth of Christ? Maybe the regular church goers, but even some of them think about family, giving gifts..etc. rather than what it actually means.

You can talk about Christmas, the history of all these symbols, what people label it as, but in reality, through the actions of people, it is now more of a secular holiday.

[Hcheh]

"the real meaning" of Christmas was lost in translation

[William Ashley]

Nope....Santa predates Coke

Lier. There was no Santa before Coke. Coke Drew him into existance from a host of folk tales that had little if any popularity. Coke Made Santa as a "fixed identity" before that his physicality was purely conjured.

What part of the Bible is written in Aramaic?

FYI: http://www.v-a.com/bible/

*sigh*

Are you being a strawman.. this whole board is filled of strawmen.

[William Ashley]

read about Saturnalia

see also.

http://www.wisegeek.com/where-did-the-trad...e-come-from.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia

Edited October 29, 2008 by William Ashley

[capricorn]

Lier. There was no Santa before Coke. Coke Drew him into existance from a host of folk tales that had little if any popularity. Coke Made Santa as a "fixed identity" before that his physicality was purely conjured.

Coca-cola came late to the game.

In the British colonies of North America and later the United States, British and Dutch versions of the gift-giver merged further. For example, in Washington Irving's History of New York, (1809), Sinterklaas was Americanized into "Santa Claus" but lost his bishop's apparel, and was at first pictured as a thick-bellied Dutch sailor with a pipe in a green winter coat. Irving's book was a lampoon of the Dutch culture of New York, and much of this portrait is his joking invention.

Modern ideas of Santa Claus seemingly became canon after the publication of the poem "A Visit From St. Nicholas" (better known today as "The Night Before Christmas") in the Troy, New York, Sentinel on December 23, 1823 anonymously; the poem was later attributed to Clement Clarke Moore. In this poem Santa is established as a heavyset man with eight reindeer (who are named for the first time). One of the first artists to define Santa Claus's modern image was Thomas Nast, an American cartoonist of the 19th century. In 1863, a picture of Santa illustrated by Nast appeared in Harper's Weekly.

Thomas Nast immortalized Santa Claus with an illustration for the January 3, 1863 issue of Harper's Weekly.

In the late 19th century, a group of Sami people moved from Finnmark in Norway to Alaska, together with 500 reindeer to teach the Inuit to herd reindeer. The Lomen Company then used several of the Sami together with reindeer in a commercial campaign. Reindeer pulled sleds with a Santa, and one Sami leading each reindeer. The American commercial Santa Claus, coming from the North Pole with reindeer was born.[23]

L. Frank Baum's The Life and Adventures of Santa Claus, a 1902 children's book, further popularized Santa Claus. Much of Santa Claus's mythos was not set in stone at the time, leaving Baum to give his "Neclaus" (Necile's Little One) a wide variety of immortal support, a home in the Laughing Valley of Hohaho, and ten reindeer which could not fly, but leapt in enormous, flight-like bounds. Claus's immortality was earned, much like his title ("Santa"), decided by a vote of those naturally immortal. This work also established Claus's motives: a happy childhood among immortals. When Ak, Master Woodsman of the World, exposes him to the misery and poverty of children in the outside world, Santa strives to find a way to bring joy into the lives of all children, and eventually invents toys as a principal means.

Images of Santa Claus were further popularized through Haddon Sundblom's depiction of him for The Coca-Cola Company's Christmas advertising in the 1930s. The popularity of the image spawned urban legends that Santa Claus was in fact invented by Coca-Cola or that Santa wears red and white because those are the Coca-Cola colors.[24] In reality, Coca-Cola was not even the first soft drink company to utilize the modern image Santa Claus in its advertising – White Rock Beverages used Santa to sell mineral water in 1915 and then in advertisements for its ginger ale in 1923. Furthermore, the massive campaign by Coca-Cola simply popularised the depiction of Santa as wearing red and white, in contrast to the variety of colours he wore prior to that campaign; red and white was originally given by Nast.[25][26]

(emphasis is mine)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santa_Claus#Modern_origins

Here's more proof.

http://snopes.com/cokelore/santa.asp

You owe Dancer an apology for calling him a liar.

Edited October 29, 2008 by capricorn

[Mr.Canada]

Lier. There was no Santa before Coke. Coke Drew him into existance from a host of folk tales that had little if any popularity. Coke Made Santa as a "fixed identity" before that his physicality was purely conjured.

This is bizarre and not at all true. I believe that you believe it but this doesn't make it so. There was Saint Nick in Great Britain and Germany long before Coca-Cola.

In fact almost every nation on earth has some form of Saint Nick or Santa and has for centuries. This is a fact. I'm not being partisan or anything of the like just stating fact.

If you want to say that Coca-Cola coined the term "Santa Claus" that maybe I haven't checked but he was called Saint Nick in merry ole England long before that happened.

EDIT- I tend to side with M.Dancer's previous statements even though he regards me as a fool or whatever he said...ah yes an idiot...lol. I find it humorous that we are fighting over Santa Claus but hey what are ya gonna do...hehehe.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[William Ashley]

This is bizarre and not at all true. I believe that you believe it but this doesn't make it so. There was Saint Nick in Great Britain and Germany long before Coca-Cola.

In fact almost every nation on earth has some form of Saint Nick or Santa and has for centuries. This is a fact. I'm not being partisan or anything of the like just stating fact.

If you want to say that Coca-Cola coined the term "Santa Claus" that maybe I haven't checked but he was called Saint Nick in merry ol' England long before that happened.

St. Nick ain't Santa Claus.

You are trying to sew the image of Santa over the Dutch and other european identities which are not Santa, it is like Calling Mr. Dion Mr Harper, or Obama McCain.. it just isn't that way. Point is .. they aint' the same person. But the identies can be borrowed to some extent. Eg. politicians, or people that delivery stuff.. Mr. Nick concentrated on giving the bad boys coal.

see here for some more info on St. Nick.. st. Nick is NOT santa it is lke Calling Odin Zeus

http://www.wf-f.org/st.nicholas.html

I reiterate Bishop Nick IS NOT Santa.. while there are some commonalities.. I would not call coke pepsi.. different brand, different idea. may have helped develope the other.. BUT not the same thing.

Edited October 29, 2008 by William Ashley

[M.Dancer]

Lier. There was no Santa before Coke. Coke Drew him into existance from a host of folk tales that had little if any popularity. Coke Made Santa as a "fixed identity" before that his physicality was purely conjured.

FYI: http://www.v-a.com/bible/

*sigh*

Are you being a strawman.. this whole board is filled of strawmen.

What can I say? This is nonsense.

Eashoa Msheekha (Jesus the Messiah) spoke in the Galilean dialect of the Ancient Aramaic language. This is the language in which the disciples and the apostles preached the Gospel and the scribes recorded the Scriptures. The New Testament has been preserved in this sacred, scribal language since the Apostolic Age. The whole Bible was originated in this language. The New Testament Scriptures were already in use in the Ancient Aramaic language for five hundred years before Christianity began in Europe. The first Christians in Europe were the Romans under Emperor Constantine. The Bible was not read by the Europeans in their vernacular until the Gutenberg Press was invented in 1440. The Reformation began after that, when the Protestants came up with their own Bibles and interpretations. The translation that you find on this website is made from the original Ancient Aramaic Scriptures directly into English, bypassing the errors of translation introduced in the Greek Original, the Latin Vulgate and all the Western translations made from them. The Disciples New Testament is the best translation of the authentic and original Scriptures that the Apostles compiled.

I will point out the nonsense.

scribes recorded the Scriptures. The Torah and all Hebrew scriptures were written in Hebrew. Evidence of this are the dead sea scrolls. The original authors of the new testament wrote is Greek. Sometimes so badly it seemed that they were thinking in Aramaic and transliterating into greek while Paul and Luke write greek with ease.

The New Testament has been preserved in this sacred, scribal language since the Apostolic Age.

Yet none exist.

The whole Bible was originated in this language.

Nope. Hebrew

The New Testament Scriptures were already in use in the Ancient Aramaic language for five hundred years before Christianity began in Europe.

Given that Christianity in Europe started around 50 - 60 AD....the statement can only be aimed at idiots.

The first Christians in Europe were the Romans under Emperor Constantine.

I suppose Pauls mission and establishment of Churches in Macedonia and Peter's establishment of a Church in Rome (as well as Paul's letters to the Roman Church puts that to rest.

If indeed you are as you claim a divinity student I can only wonder which matchbook university you went to. Fruitcake U?

If you make a hypothisis with a bogus statement, don't be surprised to be called on it.

[M.Dancer]

Lier.

Li´er (lī´ẽr)

n. 1. One who lies down; one who rests or remains, as in concealment.

There were liers in a ambush against him.

You aren't the quickest wit around are you?

[Mr.Canada]

I'll leave this Santa Claus business to M.Dancer. He is much more careful about what he says as I pretty much run on emotion.

I'm better at public speaking and organizing than I am at research, I work for a large union after all.

Edited October 29, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[guyser]

I work for a large union after all.

The picture becomes a little bit clearer.

[Hcheh]

What can I say? This is nonsense.

I will point out the nonsense.

scribes recorded the Scriptures. The Torah and all Hebrew scriptures were written in Hebrew. Evidence of this are the dead sea scrolls. The original authors of the new testament wrote is Greek. Sometimes so badly it seemed that they were thinking in Aramaic and transliterating into greek while Paul and Luke write greek with ease.

The New Testament has been preserved in this sacred, scribal language since the Apostolic Age.

Yet none exist.

The whole Bible was originated in this language.

Nope. Hebrew

The New Testament Scriptures were already in use in the Ancient Aramaic language for five hundred years before Christianity began in Europe.

Given that Christianity in Europe started around 50 - 60 AD....the statement can only be aimed at idiots.

The first Christians in Europe were the Romans under Emperor Constantine.

I suppose Pauls mission and establishment of Churches in Macedonia and Peter's establishment of a Church in Rome (as well as Paul's letters to the Roman Church puts that to rest.

If indeed you are as you claim a divinity student I can only wonder which matchbook university you went to. Fruitcake U?

If you make a hypothisis with a bogus statement, don't be surprised to be called on it.

I questioned his credentials as well, he claimed that aside from Christians, there are no pieces of historical evidence pertaining to the existence of Jesus. And of course, he did not know that the bible was originally hebrew

[Hcheh]

You aren't the quickest wit around are you?

lool its a minor spelling mistake, we've all had one of those every now and then.

[Mr.Canada]

The picture becomes a little bit clearer.

And yet I'm not a left winger and don't support Buzz or the NDP. I like to think for myself and go against the grain.

[Hcheh]

And yet I'm not a left winger and don't support Buzz or the NDP. I like to think for myself and go against the grain.

You don't think "left wingers" are able to think for themselves?

[Mr.Canada]

You don't think "left wingers" are able to think for themselves?

Many of them vote for the NDP because they "think" that the NDP stands up for the working man but really they just think their pay cheques will get bigger...lol. They don't get the point of who is going to end up paying for all these programs the NDP keep harping about.

They claim the rich will pay but how many "rich" are really out there? Less than 5% of the population. How many working class people are their? Over 80%, you think that they'll scrap enough off of 5% of the population to pay for 100% of the programs? I don't. The working people will end up footing the bill, we'll be no further ahead but have more taxes to show for it. That's what they always forget to tell you.

[Hcheh]

Many of them vote for the NDP because they "think" that the NDP stands up for the working man but really they just think their pay cheques will get bigger...lol. They don't get the point of who is going to end up paying for all these programs the NDP keep harping about.

They claim the rich will pay but how many "rich" are really out there? Less than 5% of the population. How many working class people are their? Over 80%, you think that they'll scrap enough off of 5% of the population to pay for 100% of the programs? I don't. The working people will end up footing the bill, we'll be no further ahead but have more taxes to show for it. That's what they always forget to tell you.

Being "left wing" does not imply a certain party. It just means you are geared towards a certain set of political ideals. You can be leaning left and have disagreements with the NDP party. Political beliefs go beyond partisanship.

[Mr.Canada]

Being "left wing" does not imply a certain party. It just means you are geared towards a certain set of political ideals. You can be leaning left and have disagreements with the NDP party. Political beliefs go beyond partisanship.

Agreed. I was just illustrating that when people say union they automatically assume one supports a left wing party. As a union is pretty much like communism, well it is. One worker is the same as another worker and all that and worth no less. I do believe that labour unions are important and play their part.

[Hcheh]

Agreed. I was just illustrating that when people say union they automatically assume one supports a left wing party. As a union is pretty much like communism, well it is. One worker is the same as another worker and all that and worth no less. I do believe that labour unions are important and play their part.

Maybe you could say that unions have socialist or communist leaning ideals, but I really don't think you could say that a union actually equals communism. Communism is quite an extreme political ideology.

[Mr.Canada]

Maybe you could say that unions have socialist or communist leaning ideals, but I really don't think you could say that a union actually equals communism. Communism is quite an extreme political ideology.

I think you're smart enough to know what I'm getting at. Let's not play with semantics