public Education

[lukin]

What is everyone's feelings on public education? I have kids in public schools. They are decent students with no behavioural issues. They feel their education is lacking because teachers have to spend too much time disciplining behavioural problems, and working with kids who are in Grade 6 yet can barely read or write. i am not blaming teachers here. I'm just very disgusted that kids who ruin learning for those who want to learn get all the attention. Am I being ridiculous?

[eyeball]

Ever thought of home-schooling? We (I mean my wife actually) did at various times with our kids and things worked out okay. If your's are as diligent as you say it should be snap.

[lukin]

Ever thought of home-schooling? We (I mean my wife actually) did at various times with our kids and things worked out okay. If your's are as diligent as you say it should be snap.

Home schooling is not an option for us. I do think it would produce a better education. Thanks for your wise suggestion.

[Community Advocate]

What is everyone's feelings on public education? I have kids in public schools. They are decent students with no behavioural issues. They feel their education is lacking because teachers have to spend too much time disciplining behavioural problems, and working with kids who are in Grade 6 yet can barely read or write. i am not blaming teachers here. I'm just very disgusted that kids who ruin learning for those who want to learn get all the attention. Am I being ridiculous?

Public education will never be able to meet the needs of all students.

You would have to understand special education, and certain cerebral disabilities in order to understand the problems these special needs students present in a classroom, and how difficult it is for teachers to deal with them, without adequate support from a TA. EA, or classroom assistant.

It is your provincial government minister of education you should be complaining to about this.

Your disgust is misplaced. It should not be at the special needs kids. Your disgust should be aimed at the government that does not provide the required support to help these special needs students be successful in school.

The square peg in the round hold syndrome still exists.

[lukin]

Public education will never be able to meet the needs of all students.

You would have to understand special education, and certain cerebral disabilities in order to understand the problems these special needs students present in a classroom, and how difficult it is for teachers to deal with them, without adequate support from a TA. EA, or classroom assistant.

It is your provincial government minister of education you should be complaining to about this.

Your disgust is misplaced. It should not be at the special needs kids. Your disgust should be aimed at the government that does not provide the required support to help these special needs students be successful in school.

The square peg in the round hold syndrome still exists.

I think you misunderstood me. My concern wasn't aimed at students with definite learning diabilities. I understand that they need extra help, and in many cases, do not receive the proper help.

My concern is aimed at students who have nothing more than behavioural issues. The students who have the ability but choose to cause problems fpr their teachers and classmates.

Lets face it, public schools have low standards. It is nothing more than an idealogy full of the warm and fuzzy. For example, in many elementary grades, students are given social passes. These students may have chosen not to work hard in their class, or are just plain lazy. However, they are moved on to the next grade without properly completing the previous grade. So what happens in the next year? They fall behind because they are unable to do the grade level required work. They end up taking up a majority of the teacher's time. Students who are there to learn suffer because the teacher is too busy dealing with students who act inappropriately or who fall behind because of the social pass.

Here is the problem with public schools. Instead of expecting students to strive and and fullfill high expectations, they are bringing all students down to a low level so that no one feels left out. This is a warm and fuzzy education. Sacrifice high expectations at the expense of the self esteem of a few.

Like you mentioned, a big problem is funding. Schools need more teachers. Combining grades in one classroom is wrong. My son was in a grade 3/4 split class. It was the worst experience of his young schooling life. I don't blame the teachers for this. They do what they are told to do by their provincial education departments. When I called the school district superintendent, all he told me was that research shows that split grade classrooms were beneficial and positive. I told him that there is always research that proves the point you want to support, and that his argument was weak. I found out later that year that he never set foot in my son's classroom, but yet he knew about this convincing research.

I know this may seem like a rant, but when it comes to the education of my kids, I get very involved, and right now, I am not liking what I see with the public education system.

[Smallc]

My concern is aimed at students who have nothing more than behavioural issues.

Those issues should be (and are in my division) treated with the same support as development problems. I know a few students who have EAs assigned to them for issues that are nothing more than behavioral.

[lukin]

Those issues should be (and are in my division) treated with the same support as development problems. I know a few students who have EAs assigned to them for issues that are nothing more than behavioral.

There are too many kids like that these days. Not enough money to get an EA for each kid. So again the strong students who want to be there are left to fend for themselves, because they don't make themselves noticed by throwing disruptive fits. You have to come up with better rational than that smallc.

[Topaz]

I don't know if any of the following will help but here it goes. Years ago when my kids were in school, our school had the same problem. They had the grade eight kids who were honour students, became helpers for the students who were having problems. This helped both grade eight students and the lower grade student. They also had stay at home moms come in and gave some time to help also, but I'm not sure how many stay at home moms there are in todays world. Perhaps the answer is to put all the kids with problems into one class and try to deal with that way. What i do know if these problem kids slip through, they could end up on welfare in the future and I think the principal should give the services these kids need before society ends up supporting them.

[Kitch]

There are too many kids like that these days. Not enough money to get an EA for each kid. So again the strong students who want to be there are left to fend for themselves, because they don't make themselves noticed by throwing disruptive fits. You have to come up with better rational than that smallc.

If I may add, from the perspective of a teacher, you are not being ridiculous. It is truly unfair to everyone that so much time is often spent dealing with behaviour issues.

Sometimes, it is the teacher's fault... although I find it difficult to say that this is common. Some teachers just don't know how to engage their students... and keeping them interested in the topic at hand is the number one way of preventing behaviour problems.

The other problem is the relative impotence of teachers in terms of discipline. Ever since the last strike in Ontario, principals are no longer part of the teacher federations, and as such, have their own interests in the schools now. It is not uncommon for a teacher to exhaust all options while dealing with a student and finally resort to sending a kid to the office, only to have the kid come back after receiving a warning... for a repeated offense. Principals can't always be blamed as they have to look out for the good of the school, and that often means avoiding law suits. Some parents will not accept that their child is a problem or has done something wrong and if you try to tell them otherwise, they give YOU problems. Sometimes, they take things way too far and sue the teacher, principal, school, school board and/or the ministry! (The more people on the list the greater opportunity for money). School boards spend a LOT of money settling frivolous law suits... some are not frivolous, but many are. This creates an environment in school boards similar to insurance companies, with principals being adjusters. The less a board has to pay out, the better. So principals tend to want to do their part by preventing issues from getting to that point. Often this means giving parents what they want. When principals were in our union, however, they didn't need to worry about such things as they couldn't be punished for ridiculous law suits... but they can now. And students quickly become aware of the lack of discipline and do as they please, making it VERY difficult to teach.

So, partly, the problem has to do with parents no longer treating their kids like kids. They want to be friends with their kids, and want to be the 'cool' parent. Or they simply coddle their kid for any number of reasons. This leads to kids with a huge sense of entitlement and an 'I can do no wrong' approach to life. Compound this with what I said above, and there you have it... today's school atmosphere.

Don't get me wrong, the number of parent/kids like this is small compared to the rest. But they do create huge problems for everyone else.

[Smallc]

There are too many kids like that these days. Not enough money to get an EA for each kid. So again the strong students who want to be there are left to fend for themselves, because they don't make themselves noticed by throwing disruptive fits. You have to come up with better rational than that smallc.

Not enough for an EA for each kid, no, but there are now within my division special programs for each of the kids and EAs for the most serious cases. I have personal experience with this.

[blueblood]

Not enough for an EA for each kid, no, but there are now within my division special programs for each of the kids and EAs for the most serious cases. I have personal experience with this.

The big problem in our division is that giant money pit called Dauphin.

[Smallc]

The big problem in our division is that giant money pit called Dauphin.

Well, your biggest school is there, but I'm not quite sure what you mean. We don't have the same division though, as mine doesn't have any schools in Dauphin (although they do have a division office), but rather, in "frontier" communities.

[Mr.Canada]

When I went to school they had a thing called the strap. It was a thick piece of leather that usually the VP smacked against the backs of your hands if you were a reoccuring problem child. We need this form of discipline to come back. Kids are at school for 8 hours a day and to have no disciplinary measures is ridiculous. Timeouts are a joke and don't work.

Plus at home there is often no discipline at all so I think it begins with responsible parenting and not have these parents that are trying to be their childrens best friend or something.

[Smallc]

When I went to school they had a thing called the strap. It was a thick piece of leather that usually the VP smacked against the backs of your hands if you were a reoccuring problem child. We need this form of discipline to come back. Kids are at school for 8 hours a day and to have no disciplinary measures is ridiculous. Timeouts are a joke and don't work.

I agree with you, surprisingly.

[Peter F]

When I went to school they had a thing called the strap. It was a thick piece of leather that usually the VP smacked against the backs of your hands if you were a reoccuring problem child. We need this form of discipline to come back. Kids are at school for 8 hours a day and to have no disciplinary measures is ridiculous. Timeouts are a joke and don't work.

Plus at home there is often no discipline at all so I think it begins with responsible parenting and not have these parents that are trying to be their childrens best friend or something.

If any school teacher/principal had used such weaponry on my children I'd have sued them three ways from Sunday. Time-outs work just fine for the little people.

[Mr.Canada]

If any school teacher/principal had used such weaponry on my children I'd have sued them three ways from Sunday. Time-outs work just fine for the little people.

Give me a break, weaponry?

We aren't talking 5 and 6 year olds here. 10-12 year olds who know better.

You had to be a really bad kid in order to get it and they had to call the parents and get permission before they could use it. Just knowing it was there was often enough.

Ah btw I'm 33 years old and this was in Ontario until abut 1985 or so they took it out. Same time they took out the Lord's prayer from public school as well. It's funny though how the kids have gotten worse and worse since then though isn't it?

I'm sure it had nothing to do with that at all.

I got it once and look, I didn't turn green or crazy or anything.

Edited October 17, 2008 by Mr.Canada

[Smallc]

Time-outs work just fine for the little people.

Unfortunately they don't...at least not for everyone. when there is no discipline at home, no respect for authority, and no fear of consequences, there is a real problem. In almost every class in a school, there is at least 1 student that meets this criteria. They can completely destroy what would otherwise be a productive class. I see it all the time.

[lukin]

Unfortunately they don't...at least not for everyone. when there is no discipline at home, no respect for authority, and no fear of consequences, there is a real problem. In almost every class in a school, there is at least 1 student that meets this criteria. They can completely destroy what would otherwise be a productive class. I see it all the time.

That was my initial point smallc. Why did you contradict me? Your absoultely right when you say one kid can destroy a productive class. THAT was my point.

[lukin]

Give me a break, weaponry?

We aren't talking 5 and 6 year olds here. 10-12 year olds who know better.

You had to be a really bad kid in order to get it and they had to call the parents and get permission before they could use it. Just knowing it was there was often enough.

Ah btw I'm 33 years old and this was in Ontario until abut 1985 or so they took it out. Same time they took out the Lord's prayer from public school as well. It's funny though how the kids have gotten worse and worse since then though isn't it?

I'm sure it had nothing to do with that at all.

I got it once and look, I didn't turn green or crazy or anything.

Very good post Mr. Canada, and very accurate. Too many kids have very little discipline and it hurts those who come to school for the right intentions. Public schools are full of apologists. It's not the kids fault if they act out.

Unfortunately some kids do come from awful environments. When they come to school, that is their chance to work hard, succeed and build the basis for a better life as an adult, breaking the cycle of the home-life they were provided as a kid. That element is not stressed enough. Teachers are expected to "nurture" these kids and show them "love". I'm sure it's hard to do that for some teachers who come to TEACH but are instead babysitting the disruptive at the expense of the kids who want to learn.

I call this the liberalization of our public schools. These policies are put in place by the so-called educational experts with masters in education. I feel bad for teachers. They want to spend their time teaching , not spending a majority of their time dealing with 2 or 3 kids who ruin the experience for everyone.

Here's a personal story that relates to education and the type of people who make the decisions. I had a cousin who was a grade 6 teacher. She taught for 5 years. She was what I would consider a warm and fuzzy teacher. There are plenty of those types of teachers. Her main goal was making sure every student felt loved and had a high self-esteem. Most of her attention was given to those who had behavioural problems. That was OK with her because she believed that she could make a difference in their lives. Basically everyone in her class succeeded because of lower expectations. So in essence, "dumbing things down". Anyways, the kids with behavioural problems were not getting any better, despite all the nurturing they were getting. Her classroom management was a joke. She had no control. The ahrd-to-handle kids didn't react positively to the nurturing, and the kids who were there to learn weren't getting the attention they deserved. She decided to pursue her Masters of Education. She succeeded in getting her masters. She quit her job as a public school teacher, and now works for the provincial dept. of education, making decisions that present public school teachers need to adhere to. This was very upsetting to me. I come from a family with a strong teacher tradition.

I am not a teacher, but I do take great interest in public education, as I want, like everyone else, what is best for my kids.

I respect teachers, because I know they work hard and have to put up with a lot of garbage imposed on them by the "experts". I think more money needs to go towards hiring more teachers, and less money needs to go to the administrative levels.

Also, I believe that teachers need to adopt the policy of a good parent and tell their students, " I am your teacher, not your friend." If there is any beef I have with teachers it would be towards those who go out of their way to be buddy buddy with their students. I know there are teachers like that.

When I here of teachers who have students as friends on their facebook page, I cringe.

This was a longer post than what I had intended. It also took me a long time to type, as my typing skills are poor. I didn't mean to rant, but I am deeply concerned with the state of public education. What does everyone else think?

[Smallc]

That was my initial point smallc. Why did you contradict me? Your absoultely right when you say one kid can destroy a productive class. THAT was my point.

Yes, and what I was saying was that things are being done to address it....but what I didn't say was that your right, its not enough. There should be more done and I'm sorry for making it look like I was completely opposed to what you were saying.

[M.Dancer]

When I went to school they had a thing called the strap. It was a thick piece of leather that usually the VP smacked against the backs of your hands if you were a reoccuring problem child. We need this form of discipline to come back. Kids are at school for 8 hours a day and to have no disciplinary measures is ridiculous. Timeouts are a joke and don't work.

Plus at home there is often no discipline at all so I think it begins with responsible parenting and not have these parents that are trying to be their childrens best friend or something.

Same here. Never got strapped but it was the fear of the strap that kept me in line. I knew too kids who got it on their rear ends for playing on the roof of the school....

Mind you, my parents alos had the strap....and I got strapped....but getting strapped on your ass by an outsider...pain and humilation.

[lukin]

Yes, and what I was saying was that things are being done to address it....but what I didn't say was that your right, its not enough. There should be more done and I'm sorry for making it look like I was completely opposed to what you were saying.

No problem smallc. I think we are both concerned about education. I wanted to hear from other people whether I'm being unreasonable. How do you see things changing for the "better" in the near future smallc?

[Peter F]

Give me a break, weaponry?

We aren't talking 5 and 6 year olds here. 10-12 year olds who know better.

You had to be a really bad kid in order to get it and they had to call the parents and get permission before they could use it. Just knowing it was there was often enough.

Ah btw I'm 33 years old and this was in Ontario until abut 1985 or so they took it out. Same time they took out the Lord's prayer from public school as well. It's funny though how the kids have gotten worse and worse since then though isn't it?

I'm sure it had nothing to do with that at all.

I got it once and look, I didn't turn green or crazy or anything.

Ive been strapped too and I like to think it never drove me insane either. The fear was that, as you say, you had to be a really bad kid to get it. With hindsight I know now that that was horseshit - you didn't have to be a really bad kid to get it. You just had to be a kid behaving badly and sometimes not-so-badly and sometimes not-badly at all. I have no recollection of any schoolmeister calling any kids parents to seek permission to strap. They just did it - and sometimes phoned the kids parents afterwards, sometimes not at all.

I'm 52 now, and have seen two of my children through public school. They told me all about the bad behaviour of others at school, and sometimes I dragged out admissions of their own bad behavior. I believe there is no difference between kids behaviour when I was in public school during the strapping age (the sixties) and the kids my kids went to school with (the ninties). The mythology of the strap "back in my day" certainly struck fear into our naieve little hearts, but thats all it did. It certainly did not change our behaviour.

The other fact is the strap was never used to punish classroom behaviour. We were strapped for stealing other kids marbles and fighting and encouraging others to do dangerous things. Not for being disruptive in the classroom. The cure for excessive disruption has been and always will be the same: ejection from the classroom. The kid gets to have a time-out standing in the hall, or sitting in a chair in the principals office.

The kids behaviour will not change, but at least the teacher can get on with teaching.

The other thing is; Disruptive kids rarely, if ever, stopped being disruptive kids. No matter the punishments or anger of the teacher, I know this because I spent grades 1 thru 8 in the same public school with the same bunch of kids year after year after year.

Rory would be strapped 1-3 times each year for his bad behaviour and lippiness. Eddie would get strapped for fighting year after year. Holly never shut up - year after year. Murray and Brian clowned and clowned and clowned year after year after year. Terry was bullied by everybody year after year after year and Sally was ostricized for being "stinky" year after year and I stared out the window daydreaming year after year after year.

Kids behaviour changes as they grow up; not because of a strapping from time to time.

"in my day" we too recited the lords prayer and it had zero effect on anything we did. No miracles occurred because of our recitations, we weren't touched by the hand of God to make us behave and we garnered no ethical lessons from the contemplation of it. Our mumblings of the Lords Prayer each morning had the same effect on our characters as our singing of "God Save the Queen" each morning: Nada.

[lukin]

There are serious issues about public education. The strap is NEVER coming back. What can be done to help public schools? Anyone with any sensible ideas?

[Smallc]

No problem smallc. I think we are both concerned about education. I wanted to hear from other people whether I'm being unreasonable. How do you see things changing for the "better" in the near future smallc?

Well, there are programs in development that are helping some students, but I'm not really completely up to date on those as I don't work within the school on a regular basis anymore. The sad fact is though, that there are some students that will never imporve and that will never learn, and some days I feel that they should not even be there, as they are talking away from the other students. My initial defensive reaction to what you said was because its something that I hate to think myself, but I realize that it is true. They may need to be put in a completely separate environment for the benefit of themselves and others.