Hidden Haiti.

[Black Dog]

Ah, good try. However, I probably should have used different terms like "economic instability" in the first post or put "restore stability" in quotations in the second. To clarify:

The fact is there are U.S. troops on the ground in Haiti right now. They are there to ensure the right guys (read: Washington's picks) get established and stability (which was compromised by the U.S.-backed factions in teh first place) is restored.

Stability is an oft-used buzz word that largely depends on the context of its use. In this instance, "restoring stability" is being cited as a mandate of the intervention force, but again, the actual motives aren't to get Haitian society functioning, but to guarantee the "right" individuals get and retain power. However, such an arrangement would do nothing to promote Haiti's economic stability, as the hand-picked successors to Aristide exist soley to continue to implement the economic reforms that Aristide began as part of his return to power, but are resisted by large portions of the country's population.

So, to sum up, while it may seem like a contradiction, it make ssense once you look at the big picture which would look something lik ethis.

-the U.S. (also France) were unhappy with Aristide

-they destabalized the Haitian governemnt by arming and supporting the "rebels" that overthrew Aristide

- they moved to "restore stability" by sending a military force in to guarantee that Aristide's successor is who they want it to be.

- Said successors lifespan as ruler is largely predicated on his implementation of policies that guarantee continued economic instability and dependency, policies that will then benefit U.S. and allied interests.

See?

[August1991]

As for your question of Cui bono, again, read the articles. As usual, it boils down to money. America (specifically, American businesses) have benefited from Haiti's instability by turning it intoo a dumping ground for U.S. exports (since abolishing tariffs on U.S. goods was one of the preconditions of agreements signed with the U.S. government under President Clinton in 1996).

Why didn't the Americans just dump the exports in the Atlantic Ocean instead? Why the need to dump them in Haiti?

[Black Dog]

Why didn't the Americans just dump the exports in the Atlantic Ocean instead? Why the need to dump them in Haiti?

Now you're just being fatuous. :angry:

[August1991]

Fatuous? I am honestly following your logic. Can you please answer my question?

[Black Dog]

Do you know what "dumping" means? The most commonly understood definition describes the behavior of a firm that charges higher prices in its domestic sales of a given product than it charges when it exports.

A more basic definition of dumping is the sale of goods abroad at less than cost of production prices. For example, if corn costs $2.50/ bushel to grow, but is sold by grain companies in world markets at only $2.00 a bushel, that would qualify as dumping.

Domestic agricultural subsidies encourage dumping by spurring overproduction. This excess production is then fobbed off on developing markets.

Agricultural dumping is the single most damaging trade practice for developing countries - destroying livelihoods, and increasing food insecurity. Export dumping also hurts U.S. farmers by lowering market prices on nearly all crops. The biggest beneficiaries are large commodity traders who are able to buy inputs, commodities, at extremely cheap prices.

[August1991]

Are you saying to me that if Toyota offers to sell to you for $10,000 a new Lexus that costs 40,000$ to produce (because the Japanese government subsidizes car production), that's a bad deal for you - and of course, you would refuse?

Then, if I understand your logic, the Japanese government will want to spend more money invading Canada to force you to accept this deal?

You're right. The Japanese are too smart to do something as stupid as that. But the Americans, well, you know, they're awful dumb sometimes...

[Black Dog]

Are you saying to me that if Toyota offers to sell to you for $10,000 a new Lexus that costs 40,000$ to produce (because the Japanese government subsidizes car production), that's a bad deal for you - and of course, you would refuse?

We're not talking cars here. We're talking agriculture. Dumping has wrecked Haiti's agricultural business because local producers (who don't have large government subsidies to rely on) cannot compete with the large amounts of cheap commodities being imported and still remain viable.

To better illustrate this, let me borrow your analogy. My company builds cars. They cost $10,000 to produce and retail for $15,000. If Toyota comes in and start selling cars for $10,000 that cost $40,000 to produce (the difference being made up by government subsidies), I would have to lower my prices to compete which would, in turn, cut into my profits and make it harder for me to stay in business.

Is any of this becoming clear yet?

[August1991]

We're not talking cars here. We're talking agriculture.

Cars, corn. What's the diff?

My company builds cars. They cost $10,000 to produce and retail for $15,000. If Toyota comes in and start selling cars for $10,000 that cost $40,000 to produce

Let's go further BD. Let's say Toyota comes in and GIVES THE CARS AWAY FOR FREE.

Now, are you saying that I should be forced to buy your $15,000 car and refuse the free Toyota? Do you really believe economies get rich by forcing people to do such things?

As to the US, you believe US taxpayers fork over money to subsidize production so that US corn can be "dumped" into Haiti. Then, when that doesn't work. The US taxpayers spend more money invading the place to force Haitians to buy the corn.

It seems the US government is really determined to get those Haitians to buy those American agricultural products and they're going to spend whatever money is necessary to make it happen.

I wish the Japanese would do the same for us. I wouldn't mind a cheap Lexus.

[Black Dog]

Cars, corn. What's the diff?

I would have thought that would be self-evident. Unless you think they grow cars?

Let's go further BD. Let's say Toyota comes in and GIVES THE CARS AWAY FOR FREE.

Now, are you saying that I should be forced to buy your $15,000 car and refuse the free Toyota? Do you really believe economies get rich by forcing people to do such things?

I'm not sure what your point is. If they went in and gave the cars away free, I'd still be out of business.

The point here is that U.S. agribusinesses are expoliting an unfair competitive advantage in dumping commodities on the Haitian market. It's driving small, local producerrs out of business and into poverty. So there you go.

As to the US, you believe US taxpayers fork over money to subsidize production so that US corn can be "dumped" into Haiti. Then, when that doesn't work. The US taxpayers spend more money invading the place to force Haitians to buy the corn.

Not exactly, but close enough, yeah

It seems the US government is really determined to get those Haitians to buy those American agricultural products and they're going to spend whatever money is necessary to make it happen.

Apparently. I know you're not being serious, but the statement you make is only truly ludicrious if the U.S. was acting in the interests of the taxpayer. That's not the case.

[August1991]

I'm not sure what your point is. If they went in and gave the cars away free, I'd still be out of business.

That, BD, is the whole point. And it's the point you've been missing from the very beginning.

Since you'd be out of business, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING ELSE and the world would be a richer place - because we'd have the Toyota and whatever you produced too.

What am I getting at? Think of typists, typewriter repairmen, secretaries, ice men, wheelwrights, filing clerks. They're out of a job. And it's good too. Now they can do something else with their time and society has what we had before, and more. (With your logic BD, we'd still be living in caves looking for fire because if we ever found a way to make fire, the firekeeper would be forced out of business, lose his job and be driven into poverty.)

I don't mean to be harsh BD, but I'm beginning to believe that too many people who think like you have advised, influenced or formed the Haitian government. As a result, Haiti is filled with wheelwrights. Well, that's harsh.

Anyone who knows anything about Haiti will tell you that Haiti is a strange case indeed. Graham Greene depicted it best in my view.

[Galahad]

That, BD, is the whole point. And it's the point you've been missing from the very beginning.

Since you'd be out of business, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING ELSE and the world would be a richer place - because we'd have the Toyota and whatever you produced too.

Easier said than done. Just ask Fritz Kohn.

Remember Fritz, John Kerry's grandfather?

That was the guy who Bata ran out of the shoemaking business in Europe .... Fritz goes to America to ply his craft, but with Tomas Bata hot on his heels Fritz calls it quits. And I mean quits, ending his life, literally, in 1921.

Poor Fritz.

[August1991]

Poor Fritz.

I'm really sorry for Fritz.

But what are you suggesting? Should I feel guilty using a computer because of all the typewriter manufacturers that went out of business?

[Black Dog]

Since you'd be out of business, YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING ELSE and the world would be a richer place - because we'd have the Toyota and whatever you produced too.

Gee, since you have such a firm grasp on economic policy, perhaps you should go and dispense your wisdom to the thousands of impoverished Haitians who's livelihoods have been destroyed as a result of commodity dumping. Lost your farm? Destiute? Well, here's the solution: do something else. Frigging brilliant. I don't know why know one else has thought of that before.

What am I getting at? Think of typists, typewriter repairmen, secretaries, ice men, wheelwrights, filing clerks. They're out of a job. And it's good too. Now they can do something else with their time and society has what we had before, and more.

But meanwhile, here on Planet Earth, the fact of the matter is that job losses means lost income, and, in places like Haiti where economic conditions are so poor that opportunities are extremely limited, that means poverty.

Anyone who knows anything about Haiti will tell you that Haiti is a strange case indeed.

Obviously I wouldn't count you as one of those people. The simple reality is that Haiti is not a strange case, but a sad and all-too typical example of western economic neo- imperialism in action.

[August1991]

But meanwhile, here on Planet Earth, the fact of the matter is that job losses means lost income, and, in places like Haiti where economic conditions are so poor that opportunities are extremely limited, that means poverty.

Haiti, to my knowledge, is on Planet Earth.

But BD, let me repeat, according to your logic, we would never have adopted a way to make fire because the fire guardian would have been driven out of business, lost his job and been driven into poverty. (BTW, our poverty was greater then and, by your logic, our opportunities even more limited than Haiti's today.)

Economic growth means getting more with what we have. Inevitably, some people lose out but then do something else. Overall we gain. This is as true for Haiti as it is for us. In fact, it's more true for Haiti.

It is truly frightening to read "job losses mean lost income". So, we should never allow job losses through new technology, foreign trade, better management, more efficient methods? These all would mean "lost income"? WTF?

[Black Dog]

But BD, let me repeat, according to your logic, we would never have adopted a way to make fire because the fire guardian would have been driven out of business, lost his job and been driven into poverty. (BTW, our poverty was greater then and, by your logic, our opportunities even more limited than Haiti's today.)

Your analogy is completey stupid. To follow its contorted "logic", the "fire keeper" would only have lost his job if the rest of the group found a way to make fire on their own. The end result is the tribe still has fire. However, this retarded comparason has no bearing ont he price of tea in China or, in this case, the price of rice in Haiti.

Economic growth means getting more with what we have. Inevitably, some people lose out but then do something else. Overall we gain. This is as true for Haiti as it is for us. In fact, it's more true for Haiti.

Do you understand even the simplest concepts? For the Haitian agriculture producers, it's not a matter of finding another job. The economic conditions in that country are such that there are no jobs!

Can you explain why this is "more true for Haiti", a country whose number one growth industry is "armed thugs"?

In fact, I'd like to see you explain to a Haitian farmer who has been driven out of his livliehood by commodity dumping why he is better off now than when he was able to feed his family.

It is truly frightening to read "job losses mean lost income". So, we should never allow job losses through new technology, foreign trade, better management, more efficient methods? These all would mean "lost income"? WTF?

People who lose jobs lose income. Period. Not a tough concept to grasp, brainiac.

Haiti, to my knowledge, is on Planet Earth.

But your profound ignorance of economic realities would indicate you are a resident of some other planet, or just have your head up your ass.

[August1991]

For Gawd's sake, BD, you are using a computer. Typewriter manufacturers/repair guys lost their jobs (ever heard of Smith-Corona? Gone!)

THIS IS GOOD FOR EVERYONE BUT BAD FOR THE REPAIR GUYS! (At first, then they do something else.)

Is Haiti immune from this? Do Haitians come from a different planet? Or does Haiti suffer from alot of Tom Walkom, do gooder, Catholic nun, nice, smug foreigners who want to help the "fire guardians", "wheelwrights", "typewriter mechanics" to be safe and have a good job and understand that life is hard but forgiveness is good.

My own opinion? Haiti is a mess. Why? I dunno. I would never blame nuns.

The economic conditions in that country are such that there are no jobs!

Even more pathetic! So, Haiti will be poor for all eternity! So explain to me why Iceland -island in the Atlantic- has amongst the highest per capita incomes in the world. Or, why does the rest of Hispanola live better?

Look, BD, I don't want to argue - really. I don't want a silly Olympic medal competition. Economics is not about winning, being top cat, king dog. It's about co-operating. That doesn't happen in Haiti. And ordinary Haitians suffer as a result.

We in the west benefit from free markets. Haitians don't. Why? Blaming the US is silly.

[Black Dog]

o explain to me why Iceland -island in the Atlantic- has amongst the highest per capita incomes in the world. Or, why does the rest of Hispanola live better

You need to get your head into the real world. there are profound differences between firrst world countries like Iceland and a third worl nation like Haiti, a former slave colony with a 200 year history of political and economic strife.

We in the west benefit from free markets. Haitians don't. Why? Blaming the US is silly.

Why is blaming the U.S. "silly"? You've not countered any of the reasons I've given as to how the U.S. has contributed an dbenefited from the basket case that is Haiti. Indeed, your inability to grasp a simple and recognized economic concept like commodity dumping shows either a simple ignorance of economic and political realities, or deliberate wrongheadedness.

Nothing exists in a vacum and Haiti is a prime example of a nation that has been unable to develop on its own, free from the post-imperial machinations of the west.

Anyway, here's some more background on how western intervention has kept Haiti poor and chaotic.

Haiti: 1984-1996

[August1991]

BD, you got arguments going on everywhere - like a chess master taking on 20 players. I'll get to the main point (using a previous post).

Do you understand even the simplest concepts? For the Haitian agriculture producers, it's not a matter of finding another job. The economic conditions in that country are such that there are no jobs!

You're right, BD, Haiti's a basket case. The economic conditions are such that there are no jobs, no future. Imagine you're a Haitian and some foreign expert just told you that. How would you feel?

Or, do you mean that the US (government, people) has conspired to make such economic conditions in Haiti? According to your logic, wouldn't it be better to have pliant, prosperous Haitians who can buy all that American produce?

Listen BD. Take some time. We really gotta sit down and talk. I consider myself "take from the rich give to the poor left wing". In this, there's a really good argument that will drive the right wing completely bananas because they'll lose the argument. Steyn on down.

And the argument has nothing to do with "commodity dumping". (That argument just plays into the hands of the neo-cons who are against US farm subsidies and are using the third-worlders to advance their cause.)

Are you against Food Banks? Soup kitchens? What is subsidized rice to Haiti? For heaven's sake, be consistent.

[Black Dog]

Or, do you mean that the US (government, people) has conspired to make such economic conditions in Haiti? According to your logic, wouldn't it be better to have pliant, prosperous Haitians who can buy all that American produce?

------

And the argument has nothing to do with "commodity dumping". (That argument just plays into the hands of the neo-cons who are against US farm subsidies and are using the third-worlders to advance their cause.)

I think I've detailed the role U.S. agribusiness has in Haiti's economic troubles fairly well, but there's lots of good resources out there on this and other trade and development issues. May I suggest you check out Oxfam International? They do great work on fair trade issues, which is very much part of this whole picture. Take a look and then we can have a discussion elsewhere.

[Black Dog]

Let's get this discussion back on track.

Haitain Unrest was U.S. a U.S.-led coup

Aristide continues to insist he was forced to flee by American forces. Meanwhile, the U.S-backed advisory council has picked a new PM. At home, some elected officials are starting to question th eU.S.'s rol ein Aristide's ouster:

Probing U.S. ties to Haiti coup

Why are the hawks who supported the invasion and occupation of Iraq in the name of spreading democracy still silent over this?

[August1991]

Let's get this discussion back on track.

I thought you brought the thread to a nice conlusion, BD, and basically solved the problem.

For the Haitian agriculture producers, it's not a matter of finding another job. The economic conditions in that country are such that there are no jobs!

Haiti offers no other jobs to find. Haiti is a no job country. IOW, Haiti will be poor for all time. End of story.

PS. It would appear, according to your sites, that the US just eliminated another job in Haiti too, the job of Haitian President.