Harper does it AGAIN

[kengs333]

Wow, you have been very obviously proven to be wrong and on and on you march.

Do you realize how silly you are making yourself look?

And by all accounts, you don't need any help looking silly.

I haven't been proven wrong.

[kengs333]

As for the kids, the 12 SS is not a good example , these kids started at a very early age, and had been brain washed with the many NAZI programs meant for thier youth, those kids were hand selected for thier beliefs, thier fitness, and attitudes....and by the time they were of age they were men...not kids they were suppose to be....That and the fact they where one of hilters fire brigades meant they saw alot of combat, and you either learned to be a warrior or perished...

The assertion was that the Nazis resorted to using old men and children, and I simply pointed out that the old men would mostly have had previous military experience and that children--well they were mostly teens--were capable of fighting. The Hitler Jugend division was a tough unit which the Canadians had difficulty dealing with. Since it was a unit specifically comprised of children, is serves as an example of how capable these children were as soldiers. Other youth would have been scattered among other units, so it's difficult to assess how capable they were, but seeing that they too would have been subject to the same indoctrination, it's not unrealistic to assume that the use of children wasn't all that much of an act of desperation as simply a logical expedient in a difficult time. The British Army and Navy routinely used children in dangerous roles and combat situations.

What's a "hilters fire brigade"?

[Alta4ever]

The assertion was that the Nazis resorted to using old men and children, and I simply pointed out that the old men would mostly have had previous military experience and that children--well they were mostly teens--were capable of fighting. The Hitler Jugend division was a tough unit which the Canadians had difficulty dealing with. Since it was a unit specifically comprised of children, is serves as an example of how capable these children were as soldiers. Other youth would have been scattered among other units, so it's difficult to assess how capable they were, but seeing that they too would have been subject to the same indoctrination, it's not unrealistic to assume that the use of children wasn't all that much of an act of desperation as simply a logical expedient in a difficult time. The British Army and Navy routinely used children in dangerous roles and combat situations.

What's a "hilters fire brigade"?

If you actually look at the cronilogical history of youth in WW 2 you will see that it was an act of desperation. By 1940 hitler youth were performing mail and aux duties. As losses mounted in the german forces in 1943 they draft 16-18 year old boys from the Hitler youth into a fully equiped panzer division as the war progressed the germans dafted younger and younger boys to were at the battle of Berlin in 1945 they had 12year old boys in combat roles for defense of the city. When you look at this in the order that it happened an not just picking specific battles you see a trend, and that trend is the desparation of the german military for man power.

Please state what period in History that you are refering to when you speak of children in the British Army and Navy, as I have not seen reference to combat roles for youth in either of these services during the second world war.

[Alta4ever]

What's a "hilters fire brigade"?

It is a brigade of firefighters.

[kengs333]

It is a brigade of firefighters.

you forgot to explain the "hilters" part, der....

[kengs333]

If you actually look at the cronilogical history of youth in WW 2 you will see that it was an act of desperation. By 1940 hitler youth were performing mail and aux duties. As losses mounted in the german forces in 1943 they draft 16-18 year old boys from the Hitler youth into a fully equiped panzer division as the war progressed the germans dafted younger and younger boys to were at the battle of Berlin in 1945 they had 12year old boys in combat roles for defense of the city. When you look at this in the order that it happened an not just picking specific battles you see a trend, and that trend is the desparation of the german military for man power.

It's a logical decision to use any men that are capable of fighting when the enemy is getting closer, but I think a true sign of deperation would have been the use of women in combat roles, as the Soviets did. The Germans never really did this; I believe the only widespread use of women in "combat" would have been female anti-aircraft crews. You have to keep in mind that many of the high ranking Germans--Hitler most of all--were under the delusion that the situation was not as hopeless as it was. They kept on believing that there were secret weapons that would turn the tide of the war in their favour, even during the last weeks of the war.

Please state what period in History that you are refering to when you speak of children in the British Army and Navy, as I have not seen reference to combat roles for youth in either of these services during the second world war.

I think you should be able to figure this out for yourself. I think the statement is worded in such a way that it is clear that I was referring to prior to WWII.

[Alta4ever]

It's a logical decision to use any men that are capable of fighting when the enemy is getting closer, but I think a true sign of deperation would have been the use of women in combat roles, as the Soviets did. The Germans never really did this; I believe the only widespread use of women in "combat" would have been female anti-aircraft crews. You have to keep in mind that many of the high ranking Germans--Hitler most of all--were under the delusion that the situation was not as hopeless as it was. They kept on believing that there were secret weapons that would turn the tide of the war in their favour, even during the last weeks of the war.

I think you should be able to figure this out for yourself. I think the statement is worded in such a way that it is clear that I was referring to prior to WWII.

All navies had children that preformed tasks on board ship up until the late 1800's.

[Army Guy]

The assertion was that the Nazis resorted to using old men and children, and I simply pointed out that the old men would mostly have had previous military experience and that children--well they were mostly teens--were capable of fighting.

I think your misunderstanding what myself and the others are saying, most of the WW I vets would have been already serving in other units such as border gaurds, Air defense, etc etc, long before 1943....and by 1944 those that were left where truely old men, well over 55. And although some of them would have served in WWI, at 55 or older , Combat is the last place you want these guys....

As for the children, i think there is a big misconception here at 16 to 18 your no longer a child, and in most modern armies as well as Canada's you can join the military fighting formations as young as 17....

And while many out there will argue what they think is considered an adult, or a man, it is when some of our youth finish school and begin work,in the real world. earning a wage and supporting themselfs in my opinion makes them adults, or men/ women...

Why i said that the young men in the 12 th SS was a poor chose was because of the programs they were already been subjected to. The Hitler youth programs where already gear for military type training, physical fitness training, and polictical indoc....that said their youth had been stolen, years prior in this training...and at 17 years old there where by far more adult or men..... than the allieds could provide....

The origins of the 12. SS-Panzer-Division Hitlerjugend can be traced back to late 1942 and early 1943. In all probability, the idea to create a "Hitlerjugend" division was first tabled by SS-Gruppenführer Gottlob Berger for Hitler's consideration sometime in January of 1943. His vision called for the drafting of all HJ members who were born in 1926 and assigning them to a "Hitlerjugend" combat formation. Hitler liked the proposal and ordered Berger to commence organizing the division. The official order was issued on the 10th of February, 1943.

It should also be noted that this division although mostly made up of teenagers, the NCO and officer corp where made up from the 1 SS panzer div, vets of the russian front....which would also make a big difference in combat....

12 SS Div

At the end of the War Germanies youth was used to defend key cities and installations, many as young as 10 to 12 years old, now this is a child, this is an act of deparation, not one of logical expedient in a difficult time...( it is bad when your down to old men over 55 and very young boys of 10 to 12 ) with very little training they where expected to defend and fight vets from the russian front and western front....

Hitlers fire brigades sorry big fat fingers, the 12 SS was used as stop gap measures or to influence many battles, as such they were shuttled around from one fight to another saving the day....in constant combat, one has to get good, or one gets dead....

It's a logical decision to use any men that are capable of fighting when the enemy is getting closer, but I think a true sign of deperation would have been the use of women in combat roles, as the Soviets did. The Germans never really did this; I believe the only widespread use of women in "combat" would have been female anti-aircraft crews.

The key word here being men, not small kids and old men....it is an act of desparation....just because the Russians used women in combat reflects more on thier values not desparation....why did the Russian not pull the women when the tables of the war where reversed....they had plenty of manpower....why not send the women home , late 1945 all that was left was the outskirts of Berlin....2 different countries that viewed thier women very differently....

You don't have to be a rocket scienctist to figure out from a battle map, that your screwed, or shortly will be, when masses of enemy troops out number your troops....and they are constantly being thrown back, i think most German Generals knew well before the Battle of the bulge germanies last offensive in the west....even Hitler knew after that battle was lost that the NAZI regime was in it's final moments....did not have long to reign....Yes the NAZI's where producing all kinds of new tech, but all of it was to late, and could not be put into production fast enough....SO while there was alot of fantastic wpns designed near the end, but there was no super wpn, capable of winning the war out right....