Conservative's management record

[myata]

Harper's Conservatives like to praise themselves for their good management record. But is it really as good as stated? Let's do a quick really check, only to make sure that what we hear is what we get.

Starting with the latest:

1. Canadian Medical Association Journal slams Tories for listeriosis.

FREDERICTON -- As the death toll rose Tuesday from the national listeriosis outbreak, an editorial in the Canadian Medical Association Journal slammed the federal government for undermining public health safeguards.

The editorial, signed by several doctors and journal editors, states that Prime Minister Stephen Harper's government has reversed much of the progress previous governments made in relation to public health.

17 lives.

2. All should still remember the fiaso with Chalk river isotopes reactor, where lives came very near to being threated.

For blame were - guess who - Liberals, and the independent regulator, certainly not those directly responsible for operation of the reactor, and their ministerial supervisors.

This is about lives, not some millions, some of which got mishandled by previous government. A deja vu from Harris / Walkerton in Ontario, with self regulation of industries; cuts to public safety arrangements.

3. Now about millions. Dealing away with surpluses so that now there's a persistent talk of deficit.

So is Harper's track record as good as he says? Should he get the license to continue the same course?

[Argus]

1. Canadian Medical Association Journal slams Tories for listeriosis.

17 lives.

Nice to blame the tories even though we don't actually know what happened yet. From all indications this developed from what was apparently the unexpected strength of listeriosis in staying alive in slicing equipment which was cleaned daily. I.e., there does not appear to have been negligence involved. Whether testing would have or even could have detected the listeriosis in the meats is not yet known at this time, but I'm sure will be after the inquiry which has already been announced.

[Jobu]

Harper's Conservatives like to praise themselves for their good management record. But is it really as good as stated? Let's do a quick really check, only to make sure that what we hear is what we get.

Starting with the latest:

1. Canadian Medical Association Journal slams Tories for listeriosis.

17 lives.

2. All should still remember the fiaso with Chalk river isotopes reactor, where lives came very near to being threated.

For blame were - guess who - Liberals, and the independent regulator, certainly not those directly responsible for operation of the reactor, and their ministerial supervisors.

This is about lives, not some millions, some of which got mishandled by previous government. A deja vu from Harris / Walkerton in Ontario, with self regulation of industries; cuts to public safety arrangements.

3. Now about millions. Dealing away with surpluses so that now there's a persistent talk of deficit.

So is Harper's track record as good as he says? Should he get the license to continue the same course?

1. Yes, it was the CPC's fault for the listeria outbreak. Why not blame cancer on them too?

2. There should NEVER be a surplus the size that the Liberals ran. By definition, it means they taxed too much. I'd much prefer an even keel, marginal deficit balanced out by marginal surplus. Should we blame economic cycles on the CPC as well, while we're at it?

Edited September 18, 2008 by Jobu

[Moonbox]

2. All should still remember the fiaso with Chalk river isotopes reactor, where lives came very near to being threated.

For blame were - guess who - Liberals, and the independent regulator, certainly not those directly responsible for operation of the reactor, and their ministerial supervisors.

Oh I remember Chalk River I think. Was that the fiasco where an appointed Liberal, acting as a nuclear regulator, ordered the closure of the plant that produces most of the world's medical isotopes and thus would have been directly responsible for almost assuredly tens of thousands of lost and endangered lives worldwide? What was her reasoning again? Oh yeah. This plant, almost 200 kilometers north west of Ottawa, wasn't earthquake proof.

Now, let's think this through. Should you:

A ) Close the plant and most assuredly leave tens of thousands worldwide without medical material needed to diagnose cancer (which will lead to deaths)

or

B ) Keep the plant running, make the necessary repairs and improvements while it's running and run the 'danger' of a freak Northern Ontario earthquake (haha) large enough to endanger the plant and the town's tiny population.

Gee I dunno...

Edited September 18, 2008 by Moonbox

[myata]

I like that bold outrageous youthful spirit in the Conservative's comments, "I do it, because I know I'm right and to hell with doubts". Ie. I'll cut inspections on public water safety and see what happens; I'll change the process for public food inspections to allow more industry self regulation, and ....

And of course, the reactors. To heck with the nature, we're doing the right thing here! And if we just can't finish the repairs on time once, twice, several times, every time asking for an emergency extention, it's still our great management, now let's find Liberals to blame.

Great strategy that works. For a while. As people in Walkerton have found out.

BTW earthquakes do happen in this area. I've experienced one or two.

[Moonbox]

I like that bold outrageous youthful spirit in the Conservative's comments, "I do it, because I know I'm right and to hell with doubts". Ie. I'll cut inspections on public water safety and see what happens;

Walkerton happened because the water inspector in the area forged and cheated his inspections. It had nothing to do with a lack of funding. Next?

I'll change the process for public food inspections to allow more industry self regulation, and ....

You've failed to provide the link where you actually explain how it was the result of Conservative management that the public food inspections were inadequate. For all we know the problem might have happened under Liberal government as well. You need cause and effect to lay blame, not just effect. Otherwise you're just ranting partisanship.

And of course, the reactors. To heck with the nature, we're doing the right thing here! And if we just can't finish the repairs on time once, twice, several times, every time asking for an emergency extention, it's still our great management, now let's find Liberals to blame.

It is good management. On the one hand, you CERTAINLY endanger tens of thousands of lives worldwide and in Canada, condemning many to unnecessary death, and on the other, you run the almost impossible risk of a big earthquake which would endanger a few thousand working in and around the plant in the time it takes to complete the retrofits.

You either default on an international responsibility that tens of thousands depend on for their lives or you run the 0.00000000000001% chance of an earthquake devastating Chalk River.

BTW earthquakes do happen in this area. I've experienced one or two.

The earthquakes in the area are barely felt and even if they're like 2.0 3.0 richters. You'd need a 6.0 or 7.0 for any damage to occur and even then it would be light. Linda Keen's assessment of risk was also WAY off according to most nuclear experts and completely out of touch with reality.

Here's a former senior safety commissioner and current advisor of R&D for the CANDU:

Linda Keen's Balogna

Read that and tell me she made a wise and objective decision to close the plant down. Haha.

[myata]

Walkerton happened because the water inspector in the area forged and cheated his inspections. It had nothing to do with a lack of funding. Next?

Why wouldn't our uber-transparent Conservatives just ever spill the whole story? There'll always be something hiding in the back? Oh yeah, cuts to the provincial public water inspections! I think something about was actually in the coroner report, will confirm later, with more time. Does it have anything to do with jerks who managed public water in Walkerton? Perhaps their "management practices" could have been detected earlier? After all, anything, any problem is a result of some individual error, so why bother with public supervision at all, correct? Let's have everybody check over themselves, call it self regulation, and get down to our great management of other, more important things; btw works well in financials too.

You've failed to provide the link where you actually explain how it was the result of Conservative management that the public food inspections were inadequate.

Another nice try. The link is glaring at me, here, highlighted as a quote (hint) and no, I can't see. Nope. Nothing there. Empty page.

OK these are conclusions of experts (doctors, scientists), we'll have to wait for the results of public enquiry (hope one gets called - though the results won't be known till after the election).

You either default on an international responsibility that tens of thousands depend on for their lives or you run the 0.00000000000001% chance of an earthquake devastating Chalk River.

The earthquakes in the area are barely felt and even if they're like 2.0 3.0 richters. You'd need a 6.0 or 7.0 for any damage to occur and even then it would be light. Linda Keen's assessment of risk was also WAY off according to most nuclear experts and completely out of touch with reality.

And again, we just keep forgetting that those little details, repairs that simply couldn't be completed on time, delay after delay followed by another delay, under our great management. No, wait! They did - after the scandal hit the fan. So is that what it takes to get the things done, under this new managment? Kudos to Linda Keen then, even though it cost her her job!

[Moonbox]

And again, we just keep forgetting that those little details, repairs that simply couldn't be completed on time, delay after delay followed by another delay, under our great management. No, wait! They did - after the scandal hit the fan. So is that what it takes to get the things done, under this new managment? Kudos to Linda Keen then, even though it cost her her job!

and you fail to look a little further into the issue and realize that Chalk River was a problem that the Liberals had been ignoring for years before the Cons were elected. Shiela Frasier, the auditor general at the time, corresponded with Liberal Health Minister Herb Dhaliwhal warning that Chalk River was not up to snuff and that safety concerns were over time becoming significant. Dhaliwhal poo-pooed the exact same issues and said he thought everything was fine. Linda Keen had her job from 2001-2008 and these problems were made apparent well before the Conservatives were ever elected. I wonder if there MIGHT have been a little bit of political motivation in her choosing to raise a stink over the issue under the conservatives when she did absolutely nothing for the previous 5 years when the Liberals who appointed her were governing.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Moonbox

[myata]

Cool. Let's start with Mulroney then. No, Fathers of Confederation. They're the root cause of all of our problems.

[Topaz]

Oh I remember Chalk River I think. Was that the fiasco where an appointed Liberal, acting as a nuclear regulator, ordered the closure of the plant that produces most of the world's medical isotopes and thus would have been directly responsible for almost assuredly tens of thousands of lost and endangered lives worldwide? What was her reasoning again? Oh yeah. This plant, almost 200 kilometers north west of Ottawa, wasn't earthquake proof.

Now, let's think this through. Should you:

A ) Close the plant and most assuredly leave tens of thousands worldwide without medical material needed to diagnose cancer (which will lead to deaths)

or

B ) Keep the plant running, make the necessary repairs and improvements while it's running and run the 'danger' of a freak Northern Ontario earthquake (haha) large enough to endanger the plant and the town's tiny population.

Gee I dunno...

I don't think it was theirs to make, was it??? The person in charge was on top of it but Lunn didn't like it her way.

[Topaz]

IF the Cons didn't have the Libs surplus and Alberta's boom for employment what would Harper's government be able to take credit for? Even in Parliament, if the opposition parties never help pass the bills, where would Harper be?

[Moonbox]

Cool. Let's start with Mulroney then. No, Fathers of Confederation. They're the root cause of all of our problems.

Oh well that's a compelling response. Blame God I guess right?

You're the one throwing blame around without any idea what you're talking about.

Liberal Ministers were quoted saying that Walkerton was a tragedy that no government could have realistically prevented. The water inspector was a drunk and he was forging documents. To some extent, you have to trust that your watch dogs will not need watch dogs otherwise there'd be no end to how much regulation would cost.

The head of Maple Leaf foods has stated that the Lysteriosis outbreak was his company's fault. You can't have meat inspectors on the floor 24/7 and thus again, you have to trust the companies to some extent on their own.

Finally, Chalk River was only made into a big issue because a Liberal appointee made what is widely considered a politically motivated decision to close down a facility that I've now read provides desperately needed materials to hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide because of a less than 1/10000000 chance that something bad COULD happen.

I've already countered all of your arguments. Your post was lame, biased and without any substance whatsoever. Try again.

Edited September 18, 2008 by Moonbox

[Who's Doing What?]

2. There should NEVER be a surplus the size that the Liberals ran. By definition, it means they taxed too much. I'd much prefer an even keel, marginal deficit balanced out by marginal surplus. Should we blame economic cycles on the CPC as well, while we're at it?

So having a surplus incase of an emergency is a bad thing?

I am sure the US wishes it had had even 0.2% of it's budget as a surplus to deal Katrina. I am not opposed to the Govt. running a surplus. I don't even mind when it is used to further pay down our Nat. debt. But I know for sure, not have some extra cash on hand to deal with an emergency is foolish.

Everybody knows we are in an economic correction. To blame it on the CPC is wrong. As long as that $100 for crack and smokes keeps coming every month who cares, right?

As long as Richard Mountbottom-Humpwiggle III saves $3000 in GST on his new Porsche, life is great, right!

As long as handouts the CPC give away, keep the people voting, keep coming, who cares most of the money is usually taxed back, right?

As long as those who can already afford to put their kids in sports, get a $500 rebate for doing so, the world ir coming up roses, right?

As long as Harper sticks to the sweaters and stays away from the cowboy outfits, we'll all have fewer nightmares, right?

Edited September 18, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

[Moonbox]

I don't think it was theirs to make, was it??? The person in charge was on top of it but Lunn didn't like it her way.

It was their decision to make. It was also their decision to fire her. There's something to be said about the 'arm's length' argument the opposition makes, but when you have an appointed official from the previous government deciding to close down a facility vital to world health on concerns that were ignored for many years before by the SAME OFFICIAL and discarded by the same previous government who appointed her, you have to question her motives.

In this case, there's substantial reason to believe that this was a partisan decision by an arrogant bureaucrat to embarrass the current administration. She made a completely misguided decision that put tens of thousands of Canadians DIRECTLY at risk on the basis of another concern whose risk was negligible and completely unjustified by almost any expert's opinion.

If the Canadian government is NOT responsible for making life or death decisions like this and we should be leaving them to petty officials with politically motivated agendas then I think I might move to Iceland.

[myata]

Oh well that's a compelling response. Blame God I guess right?

No, only to point out how ridiculous and incredible the all around "blame the Liberals" is. By that time Conservatives were in power for close to two years and should shoulder much of responsibilty for the failure of a project under their management. And yeah, the fact that is was actually completed only some months after the scandal hit the media, shows to everybody with a bit of impartiality, that it was a 100% square a failure of management.

The water inspector was a drunk and he was forging documents. To some extent, you have to trust that your watch dogs will not need watch dogs otherwise there'd be no end to how much regulation would cost.

There's training, professional certification, reporting and supervision. With full funding, any of which could have detected incompetent or abusing operator before major harm has been done to the innocent people.

The head of Maple Leaf foods has stated that the Lysteriosis outbreak was his company's fault. You can't have meat inspectors on the floor 24/7 and thus again, you have to trust the companies to some extent on their own.

I defer to the opinion of experts that's been quoted. According to another interview I heard on CBC radio sometime back, the changes introduced by Conservatives are restricting food inspectors in their ablity to do their job.

Finally, Chalk River was only made into a big issue because a Liberal appointee made what is widely considered a politically motivated decision to close down a facility that I've now read provides desperately needed materials to hundreds of thousands of patients worldwide because of a less than 1/10000000 chance that something bad COULD happen.

While the upgrade project could not be completed on time, requiring multiple emergency extensions. Speaks to the quality of management. See above.

I've already countered all of your arguments. Your post was lame, biased and without any substance whatsoever. Try again.

But only in your wishful thinking. Epithets of course were intended to make up for missing argumentation.

[Moonbox]

No, only to point out how ridiculous and incredible the all around "blame the Liberals" is. By that time Conservatives were in power for close to two years and should shoulder much of responsibilty for the failure of a project under their management. And yeah, the fact that is was actually completed only some months after the scandal hit the media, shows to everybody with a bit of impartiality, that it was a 100% square a failure of management.

but the problem here is that you're acting like you're an expert on Nuclear safety, which you aren't. Numerous experts and agencies have attested that Linda Keen's assessment of risk was 100% bogus. Not surprisingly, Linda Keen, who is not a nuclear expert, has provided no support for her opinions nor has anybody been able to find any experts ready to support her. AECL reported that even if a catastrophic earthquake were to hit directly underneath the plant (an almost impossible occurence), the amount of radiation leaked within the plant would have been equal to that of a CT scan only IF all of the other safeguards failed.

What's also interesting is why Linda Keen took 17 months to discover the problem at Chalk River.

There's training, professional certification, reporting and supervision. With full funding, any of which could have detected incompetent or abusing operator before major harm has been done to the innocent people.

He was trained. He was certified. He did report. He was supervised. Walkerton happened because a trusted regulator abused his position and the only way to have prevented him from drinking and cheating on his job would have been to double the inspections and make sure someone supervised him when he was doing the inspecting. Doubling the water inspection budget is not something any party is advocating.

I defer to the opinion of experts that's been quoted. According to another interview I heard on CBC radio sometime back, the changes introduced by Conservatives are restricting food inspectors in their ablity to do their job.

Differ to a different expert then because the changes the conservatives have proposed as far as I have read haven't even been implemented yet. Oh my.

While the upgrade project could not be completed on time, requiring multiple emergency extensions. Speaks to the quality of management. See above.

The federal government has very little to do in regards to the day to day management at Chalk River. That's the AECL and Linda Keen's job. As far as I know, and I've been unable to find any information showing otherwise, but parliament had no idea Chalk River wasn't complying with safety standards until after the plant closed down. She made a GREVIOUS error in judgement in her over-reaction and parliament had to step in. She was fired for incompetence, which strangely enough was a unanimous vote in the House of Commons.

You're laying a lot of blame but you have nothing to back it up with.

[myata]

You're laying a lot of blame but you have nothing to back it up with.

How would one want to simply wish it to become true. Here, I said - it must be so.

Yet every claim has been backed up. Food safety - with a news story from a reputable news source of an expert claim. Need me to read it aloud to you? Deficit - multiple statements were available. And finally, Chalk River. No matter specific arrangements, it's the responsibility of the manager to ensure that projects are completed on time and at cost. Correct? Correct! So when it takes the safety regulator, who really has nothing to do with day to day management of the facility, only with its safety, to put her job on the line to get things done, because it's become a revolving door of never ending extensions, this is, no matter what and how much one'd blabber, still a poor, sucky, crappy management. And as such it should stand. Work hasn't been completed, minister had no hand on what's going on, management sucks.

There. All true to the last point.

[Bryan]

I'm having a hard time understanding how anyone can say that the food companies have less interest in safety than the government or the public at large. A health scare like this is very bad for business. How do you think Maple Leaf is making out because of this? Do you think any other company ever wants this to happen to them?

[Cameron]

Last I remember there was "outcry" in the 90's about the large surpluses that were being accumulated....so what's different now? This country is weird.

[Smallc]

Last I remember there was "outcry" in the 90's about the large surpluses that were being accumulated....so what's different now? This country is weird.

There was outcry in certain circles, but certainly not from everyone. I actually liked having the large buffer zone.