Disenchanted with Liberals, Conservatives & NDP?

[Bryan]

Exactly my point - same sh!t, different name with Liberals and Conservatives.

If you want to make a change - vote Green

Especially taking into account that the only "Green Shift" we may will be the shift in votes toward the Greens, as all of us will see what a majority "Blue Shaft" really does for our country...

The reason that the Liberals and Conservatives historically have been fairly close in policy and in governamce, is they represent what most people want. The reason fringe parties do not get any appreciable support (let alone form a government), is they represent what most people do not want.

I for one am very much opposed to the majority of what the Green Party represents. So while things could happen that might make me change my mind about the Conservatives and/or Liberals (it's certainly happened in the past), I can't foresee anything that would make me even consider voting Green. If you look at the breakdown of popular support, that appear to be the case for the overwhelming majority of Canadians.

[Wild Bill]

A big part of voters don't care who the MPP is. They don't care about the particular person in their riding. They vote for their party's platform.

And who would determine what this percentage would be? And which minorities should be ingnored?

Should we ingnore the gays and lesbians? Or black people? Or people on welfare? Or the disabled?

That view is more faschist than democratic...

Huh??? What does sexuality or skin colour have to do with politics? Are there no gay Conservatives? No Black Republicans?

Should transsexuals be given their own party? Are there enough of them in Canada to run in all 308 ridings? If there are, would there be any left OUTSIDE of Parliament to represent? They'd all be INSIDE the House!

I have a friend in Toronto of Asian descent. A few elections ago he heard a knock on his door. It was the local NDP folks canvassing for support. As soon as they saw his face they gushed all over him, taking it for granted that he was "one of them".

He slammed the door on them and when he tells the story over some beers he always points out that he will no longer even consider the NDP.

"Patronizing bastards" is the phrase he uses. I can see his point.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Hmm, I thought it was a hidden agenda? But, "let's take money from the rich and give it to the poor"? I'm not rich by any means, but that still doesn't seem quite right to me...

I may not have much, but I worked for it.

"Let's take money from the rich and give it to the poor" - that's NDP.

What the Greens would do is allow income splitting spouses / partners to help families pay less income tax.

[PoliticalCitizen]

The reason that the Liberals and Conservatives historically have been fairly close in policy and in governamce, is they represent what most people want. The reason fringe parties do not get any appreciable support (let alone form a government), is they represent what most people do not want.

I for one am very much opposed to the majority of what the Green Party represents. So while things could happen that might make me change my mind about the Conservatives and/or Liberals (it's certainly happened in the past), I can't foresee anything that would make me even consider voting Green. If you look at the breakdown of popular support, that appear to be the case for the overwhelming majority of Canadians.

I understand your point.

It is also true that the popular support for the Greens appears to have at least doubled since last election.

If the trend continues they may become a mainstream party giving less chance to majority governments. Their voice will be heard then.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Huh??? What does sexuality or skin colour have to do with politics? Are there no gay Conservatives? No Black Republicans?

Should transsexuals be given their own party? Are there enough of them in Canada to run in all 308 ridings? If there are, would there be any left OUTSIDE of Parliament to represent? They'd all be INSIDE the House!

I have a friend in Toronto of Asian descent. A few elections ago he heard a knock on his door. It was the local NDP folks canvassing for support. As soon as they saw his face they gushed all over him, taking it for granted that he was "one of them".

He slammed the door on them and when he tells the story over some beers he always points out that he will no longer even consider the NDP.

"Patronizing bastards" is the phrase he uses. I can see his point.

All I was trying to say is that it isn't democratic to ignore minorities of any kind (that includes political).

[TCCK]

The day I vote green will be:

The day hell freezes over

pigs will fly

I will drink a pepsi

I will get an earring

I will get a tatoo

The NDP will become the ruling party of Canada

the USA will open its borders to Mexicans and Canadians to freely come work there

Microsoft will give all of its software free to anyone that wants it

American automakers will make a good quality car again that will last for 30 years and gets 100MPG

The CBC will have high quality TV shows available

Airlines will serve full meals and give you lots of legroom in economy (why I always fly Business or First class)

there will be no more spam email

the gas companies will admit they have been gouging the consumer for years and put gas to a realistic price (.40/ litre)

De Beers will flood the market with all their stock of diamonds and apologize for keeping diamonds short supply so the price is artificially inflated

I am sure you get the hint by now, NOT A HOPE IN HELL !!

[DrGreenthumb]

The day I vote green will be:

The day hell freezes over

pigs will fly

I will drink a pepsi

I will get an earring

I will get a tatoo

The NDP will become the ruling party of Canada

the USA will open its borders to Mexicans and Canadians to freely come work there

Microsoft will give all of its software free to anyone that wants it

American automakers will make a good quality car again that will last for 30 years and gets 100MPG

The CBC will have high quality TV shows available

Airlines will serve full meals and give you lots of legroom in economy (why I always fly Business or First class)

there will be no more spam email

the gas companies will admit they have been gouging the consumer for years and put gas to a realistic price (.40/ litre)

De Beers will flood the market with all their stock of diamonds and apologize for keeping diamonds short supply so the price is artificially inflated

I am sure you get the hint by now, NOT A HOPE IN HELL !!

You forgot to add "the day you will miss sunday service, or the church picnic"

" the day you will stop feeling you have the right to force your religion morals on others"

I'd never vote green either, but fear of minorities, or other people having fun the way they see fit has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with the fact that they will never be a force in parliament, and the party is made up of nutjobs who are clueless about how to run a country. I am all for environmentalism, just not willing to let a bunch of loonies with mental health issues run my country, kind of the same reasons I would never vote conservative.

check out anyonebutconservative.com you can type in your postal code and find out how to best vote strategically to stop the conservatives in your riding.

Edited September 26, 2008 by DrGreenthumb

[PoliticalCitizen]

The day I vote green will be:

The day hell freezes over

pigs will fly

I will drink a pepsi

I will get an earring

I will get a tatoo

The NDP will become the ruling party of Canada

the USA will open its borders to Mexicans and Canadians to freely come work there

Microsoft will give all of its software free to anyone that wants it

American automakers will make a good quality car again that will last for 30 years and gets 100MPG

The CBC will have high quality TV shows available

Airlines will serve full meals and give you lots of legroom in economy (why I always fly Business or First class)

there will be no more spam email

the gas companies will admit they have been gouging the consumer for years and put gas to a realistic price (.40/ litre)

De Beers will flood the market with all their stock of diamonds and apologize for keeping diamonds short supply so the price is artificially inflated

I am sure you get the hint by now, NOT A HOPE IN HELL !!

I don't care about your tatoos and earrings regardless of where you put them.

NDP will never run Canada.

You can kiss both cheap oil and american gas-guzzlers good-bye.

Good luck with your voting for Christian Heritage.

[PoliticalCitizen]

You forgot to add "the day you will miss sunday service, or the church picnic"

" the day you will stop feeling you have the right to force your religion morals on others"

I'd never vote green either, but fear of minorities, or other people having fun the way they see fit has nothing to do with it. It has more to do with the fact that they will never be a force in parliament, and the party is made up of nutjobs who are clueless about how to run a country. I am all for environmentalism, just not willing to let a bunch of loonies with mental health issues run my country, kind of the same reasons I would never vote conservative.

check out anyonebutconservative.com you can type in your postal code and find out how to best vote strategically to stop the conservatives in your riding.

We all know who the big players are today but I wouldn't be so quick to judge about who will and who will not be a force in the parliament in the future.

"Clueless Nutjobs" could describe any party, depending on who you ask. At this point in time the Greens do not pretend to be ready to run a country and they're actually pretty damn far from it

But the Greens WILL do whatever they can to push for protection of our environment as it is the MAIN thing around which the party is built.

ABC won't work - just look at the popular support the Conservatives have.

A this point in time a vote for Greens would just show everyone how many people couldn't care less about Lib vs Con BS but DO care about a future for their children on this planet.

[segnosaur]

But the Greens WILL do whatever they can to push for protection of our environment as it is the MAIN thing around which the party is built.

Once again, this 'view' needs to be corrected...

The Greens will do what they think will protect the environment. Unfortunately, because the average green supporter is probably just as clueless about science as the average Conservative/Liberal/NDP/Bloc supporter, what they think will help the environment isn't necessarily what will help the environment.

A this point in time a vote for Greens would just show everyone how many people couldn't care less about Lib vs Con BS but DO care about a future for their children on this planet.

Either that, or show people that you're gullible enough to be taken in by slogans and pointless ideals, rather than by actually, you know, knowing something about how science and the environment work.

[segnosaur]

First of all, you do realize that if you go by the more 'literal' meaning of the word Democracy, minorities wouldn't have any rights? After all, if we truly followed the idea of majority rule, the majority could easily vote to do virtually anything to any group they wanted. (Like I said, that's kind of the 'literal' meaning of democracy. Pretty much all western 'democracies' have various constitutional protections in there to help protect basic rights, which actually run counter to the overall concept of 'democracy' but are generally viewed as being beneficial.)

My understanding of Democracy is everyone's (or at least the decided voter's) opinion should matter and once a certain number of people vote for something that something has to materialize in a tangible way.

Ignoring the minorities is Dictature, not Democracy...

I think the most important part of your response was when you said "My understanding of Democracy.

Like I said, the only real, necessary concept in order to have a 'democracy' is to have citizens vote and to have the majority rule. Its the addtion of other mechanisms (constitutions, bill of rights, etc.) that actually makes society work.

Secondly, you may be right in that the rights of certain voters get ignored in our 'first past the post system'. The alternative may result in them getting power that far exceeds their vote proportion. Neither option is optimal. However, given a choice, it may be better to have the minority vote count for less and have an actual functional parliment, than have the majority vote count for less and have a disfunctional parliment.

Let's simplify things a bit...

Let's vote unanimously for one guy for life so that he can do what needs to be done for the country without the hassle of bikering parliamentarians. Let's not vote after that - it's a waste of time and money. Besides, this one guy we elected will most likely appoint someone before he dies...

Your argument makes no sense. It sounds like you're trying to argue some sort of 'slipperly slope' argument, but I don't buy it. There is nothing in our political system (even if it is a flawed first-past-the-post system) that would elimiate the need for future elections.

[WIP]

I don't care about your tatoos and earrings regardless of where you put them.

NDP will never run Canada.

You can kiss both cheap oil and american gas-guzzlers good-bye.

Good luck with your voting for Christian Heritage.

Do you notice a pattern here? Conservatives in Canada are following the U.S. Republican example of bypassing appeals to reason, and going straight to the things that raise fear and loathing in their supporters.

In the States, I can't help wondering how many Republicans in the Bible Belt have lost their houses and lost their jobs of late, but will still fall for the same appeals to patriotism and combating sin and keep on voting for the same people who have bankrupted the country.

No surprise that former backroom strategist Stephen Harper has taken a few notes and figured out that an aging population afraid of juvenile delinquents will flock to support the same strategy that has been tried, tested and proven to be a dismal failure in the U.S., where the policies of incarcerating people for petty drug offenses has led to overcrowded prisons and a drive to privatize the prison industry, for profit -- but trying to get people to think first about the dangers to a democratic society of having an industry that profits from incarceration depends on an appeal to reason and rationality. The flock of conservatives that have been stampeded by fear, hatred of minorities, are not going to be dissuaded by pisspoor results of their "tough-on-crime" leaders; they'll keep right on voting for them to keep doing more of the same!

[bush_cheney2004]

....In the States, I can't help wondering how many Republicans in the Bible Belt have lost their houses and lost their jobs of late, but will still fall for the same appeals to patriotism and combating sin and keep on voting for the same people who have bankrupted the country.

You'll have to keep wondering, 'cause you ain't in America. Find somebody else to blame for your own problems and political impotency because this old dog don't hunt.

I wonder how many seats Harper will gain!

[segnosaur]

You forgot to add "the day you will miss sunday service, or the church picnic"

" the day you will stop feeling you have the right to force your religion morals on others"

I'm an athiest. I have been for a while. I think all religions are moronic (although some more than others).

Yet I'm not willing to vote Green OR NDP. It has nothing to do with religion. It has to do with actually applying logic and reason to my choice. I have Libertarian views, and while all parties have elements and policies that are 'anti-freedom', the NDP and Greens are more anti-freedom than the others.

Not everyone who disagrees with the Greens or NDP does so because they're a religious nut. Many of us do so because we want to build a better country and see the 'left wing' parties as being contrary to that.

[PoliticalCitizen]

You'll have to keep wondering, 'cause you ain't in America. Find somebody else to blame for your own problems and political impotency because this old dog don't hunt.

I wonder how many seats Harper will gain!

As I said before - a Conservative majority may be healthy as it will cristalize the undecided around all 3 opposition parties and will give them positive momentum. If Conservatives will abuse their majority privileges and pass laws that are abhorrent to most Canadians their party may split and each half will find itself next to fringe status after a future election.

I hope that unlike the US electorate Canadians will not enjoy being robbed and brainwashed.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Once again, this 'view' needs to be corrected...

The Greens will do what they think will protect the environment. Unfortunately, because the average green supporter is probably just as clueless about science as the average Conservative/Liberal/NDP/Bloc supporter, what they think will help the environment isn't necessarily what will help the environment.

What you said is applicable to any person or organization. Were you trying to say something meaningful?

Either that, or show people that you're gullible enough to be taken in by slogans and pointless ideals, rather than by actually, you know, knowing something about how science and the environment work.

If you are familiar with the Green platform - please tell me which part strikes you as "un-scientific".

[PoliticalCitizen]

I think the most important part of your response was when you said "My understanding of Democracy.

Like I said, the only real, necessary concept in order to have a 'democracy' is to have citizens vote and to have the majority rule. Its the addtion of other mechanisms (constitutions, bill of rights, etc.) that actually makes society work.

Again, the rule that you're describing is a Dictature of majority.

Below is Wikipedia's definition of Democracy:

'Democracy' is a form of government in which the supreme power is held completely by people who were elected in a electoral system.

...

In political theory, democracy describes a small number of related forms of government and also a political philosophy. Even though there is no universally accepted definition of 'democracy', there are two principles that any definition of democracy include. The first principle is that all members of the society have equal access to power and the second that all members enjoy universally recognized freedoms and liberties.

The riding system is undemocratic as it denies people who are in a minority in each riding the right of being represented in the parliament.

Your argument makes no sense. It sounds like you're trying to argue some sort of 'slipperly slope' argument, but I don't buy it. There is nothing in our political system (even if it is a flawed first-past-the-post system) that would elimiate the need for future elections.

My argument is simple: if you're willing to sacrifice the interests of minorities to have a "working government" then why not opt for authoritarianism so that there will be a little discussion as possible in the parliament - all will always vote unanimously.

[segnosaur]

What you said is applicable to any person or organization. Were you trying to say something meaningful?

Not sure what exactly about my post was so hard to understand.

The environment is a complex issue. The green party claims to have the inside track on actually improving the environment; however, their polcies are not necessarily any better (and may actually make things worse). If you claim to be a specialist in subject X, then shouldn't you be a specialist in subject X?

At least the Conservatives and Liberals don't make the environment the focus of their party.

If you are familiar with the Green platform - please tell me which part strikes you as "un-scientific".

Well, for one, they want to "include alternative medicine in mainstream programs". (See: http://lp.greenparty.ca/tiki-index.php?pag...mparison+chart). I could also point out that they oppose C-51, a bill supported by various skeptics groups in Canada.

[PoliticalCitizen]

Not sure what exactly about my post was so hard to understand.

Your statement was too general.

The environment is a complex issue. The green party claims to have the inside track on actually improving the environment; however, their polcies are not necessarily any better (and may actually make things worse). If you claim to be a specialist in subject X, then shouldn't you be a specialist in subject X?

I could only WISH that we had what you're describing. I already said in another post that I'd like the minister of Health to be a medical doctor and the Minister of Finance to have graduated in Finance or at least accounting, the defence minister to be a retired General etc...

However in the real world we have to work with what we've got, and that is true for any party.

Well, for one, they want to "include alternative medicine in mainstream programs". (See: http://lp.greenparty.ca/tiki-index.php?pag...mparison+chart). I could also point out that they oppose C-51, a bill supported by various skeptics groups in Canada.

Oh, I see... The "science" you're referring to is the one that serves big Pharma companies

Of course natural remedies are bad - they grow from the ground... how could that be of any good to you?

Why don't you instead buy our clinical trial verified pills for $20 a pop?

[segnosaur]

he environment is a complex issue. The green party claims to have the inside track on actually improving the environment; however, their polcies are not necessarily any better (and may actually make things worse). If you claim to be a specialist in subject X, then shouldn't you be a specialist in subject X?

I could only WISH that we had what you're describing. I already said in another post that I'd like the minister of Health to be a medical doctor and the Minister of Finance to have graduated in Finance or at least accounting, the defence minister to be a retired General etc...

But the perception is that the environment is the central focus of the green party. (Yeah, they do have policies on health care, the economy, the military, etc., but its the environment where they got their reputation.) And its many of their 'environmental' policies that I find questionable in their effectiveness.

Well, for one, they want to "include alternative medicine in mainstream programs".

Oh, I see... The "science" you're referring to is the one that serves big Pharma companies

No, its the science that actually serves the citizens of the country, by ensuring that when we use any sort of product (natural or synthetic) that it will A) be safe for us to use under the condistions prescribed, and will actually work as advertized.

Yeah, pharmacy companies do profit by doing research into new drugs, but we as a society benefit.

Of course natural remedies are bad - they grow from the ground... how could that be of any good to you?

Ummm... you do realize that MOST of the 'natural remedies' have never actually been proven to function as advertized? Think of Smilin' Bob. Think of Homeopathy (usually nothing but water).

Even when 'natural remedies' do work, they can have very nasty side effects, or can work in unpredictable ways.

In the worst case scenario, a medicine might not work, but may either have nasty side effects, or may prevent someone from getting proper treatment.

Why don't you instead buy our clinical trial verified pills for $20 a pop?

Because that $20 pill A: is tested to ensure consistency (unlike 'natural medicines', where potency/quality may vary widely, on a seasonal basis or on preparation methods), and B: has actually been tested to work (i.e. the product has gone multiple double blind studies to ensure that it acutually provides the stated effect).

I'd gladly have a $20 pill that can actually, you know, cure me, over a $10 pill that will do absolutely nothing except drain my bank account.

[PoliticalCitizen]

But the perception is that the environment is the central focus of the green party. (Yeah, they do have policies on health care, the economy, the military, etc., but its the environment where they got their reputation.) And its many of their 'environmental' policies that I find questionable in their effectiveness.

Don't forget that the stuff they come up with was not invented by them and the ideas didn't pop into their heads out of nowhere after a joint or two... The Greens are international and they have a Global Charter: http://www.global.greens.org.au/charter.htm

Yeah, pharmacy companies do profit by doing research into new drugs, but we as a society benefit.

Ummm... you do realize that MOST of the 'natural remedies' have never actually been proven to function as advertized? Think of Smilin' Bob. Think of Homeopathy (usually nothing but water).

Even when 'natural remedies' do work, they can have very nasty side effects, or can work in unpredictable ways.

In the worst case scenario, a medicine might not work, but may either have nasty side effects, or may prevent someone from getting proper treatment.

Because that $20 pill A: is tested to ensure consistency (unlike 'natural medicines', where potency/quality may vary widely, on a seasonal basis or on preparation methods), and B: has actually been tested to work (i.e. the product has gone multiple double blind studies to ensure that it acutually provides the stated effect).

I'd gladly have a $20 pill that can actually, you know, cure me, over a $10 pill that will do absolutely nothing except drain my bank account.

Do you honestly think that the society benefits from pharmaceutics?

Think of antibiotics. Think of chemotherapy (which is nothing but poison).

Even when 'pharmaceutics' do work, they can have very nasty side effects, or can work in unpredictable ways.

In the worst case scenario, a big Pharma wonder may kill you instantly, but may either have nasty side effects, or may prevent someone from getting proper treatment.

Because that $20 pill A: cost at most 20 cents (unlike 'natural medicines', which cost much less), and B: has been sold at speculative prices to the health system that we all supprot through taxes (i.e. lobbyists have bribed the health officials into adopting their rip-off invention).

Sorry for parroting, couldn't help it

[TCCK]

I don't care about your tatoos and earrings regardless of where you put them.

NDP will never run Canada.

You can kiss both cheap oil and american gas-guzzlers good-bye.

Good luck with your voting for Christian Heritage.

You guys got me totally wrong! Christian Heritage goes way too far and will never be accepted as a viable party. Plus they are just stealing valuable voters away from a viable party like the Conservatives. Just like the Gren Party steals voters from the NDP but never will have a chance at a serious party and dashes the hopes of the NDP too by being in the race.

I am not saying the 2 party system like the USA has is good or great but it does have its advantages to make a clear governmental choice and not be drawn between 5-7 parties running.

And no, I do not like tatoos or earrings just because, well my body is in nice enough shape I don't have to make it look better by painting crap on it or hanging jewelry on it to look better. I am secure in who I am and what I look like so I don't need accessories.

BUT LET ME BE CLEAR, that is MY opinion and I would never shove that down ANYONE'S throat because my choices do not mean they have to be everyone's choices. That is called a dictatorship. Canada is a Democracy (hard to work a democracy well with 5-7 parties running.)

[Smallc]

Do you honestly think that the society benefits from pharmaceutics?

Do you honestly think that it doesn't?

[PoliticalCitizen]

You guys got me totally wrong! Christian Heritage goes way too far and will never be accepted as a viable party. Plus they are just stealing valuable voters away from a viable party like the Conservatives. Just like the Gren Party steals voters from the NDP but never will have a chance at a serious party and dashes the hopes of the NDP too by being in the race.

I am not saying the 2 party system like the USA has is good or great but it does have its advantages to make a clear governmental choice and not be drawn between 5-7 parties running.

And no, I do not like tatoos or earrings just because, well my body is in nice enough shape I don't have to make it look better by painting crap on it or hanging jewelry on it to look better. I am secure in who I am and what I look like so I don't need accessories.

BUT LET ME BE CLEAR, that is MY opinion and I would never shove that down ANYONE'S throat because my choices do not mean they have to be everyone's choices. That is called a dictatorship. Canada is a Democracy (hard to work a democracy well with 5-7 parties running.)

All right, your point is noted and we're cool (as long as you don't shout ).

And since you're obviously in love with the Conservatives there's no reason for you to consider other parties.

But then the title of the thread clearly sais disenchanted - are you having second thoughts?

Edited September 27, 2008 by PoliticalCitizen

[PoliticalCitizen]

Do you honestly think that it doesn't?

You seem to be a person capable of critical thought and independent analysis.

Isn't it obvious that big Pharma today is profiteering by treating the symptoms of the sickness rather than adressing the root of the problem?

Have you considered the fact that for many diseases the root cause is simply unreacheable by modern medicine and pharmaceutics?

Are they not trying to make you dependent on their "fix", so you consume more of it and cannot live without their product?

Are they not trying to discredit and prevent the widespread use of natural and homeopatic solutions which cut into their profit?