The Liberal Green Shift

[jdobbin]

One you will not refute it seems.

I've given you my thoughts on it. It is a tax to reduce emissions.

In any event, what do you care?

The Liberals are likely to cease being a much of a party after this election given the massive majority the Tories will win.

Edited September 8, 2008 by jdobbin

[Wilber]

I've given you my thoughts on it. It is a tax to reduce emissions.

In any event, what do you care?

The Liberals are likely to cease being a much of a party after this election given the massive majority the Tories will win.

It is a tax on carbon, not emissions and the use of that tax revenue has little to do with emissions. The very fact that you maintain a Liberal Government would do anything to retain the entitlements enabled by this tax in the event of that tax revenue decreasing or disappearing puts emissions in second place at best.

My interest is less in what party wins than what it will do if it does win. I have no idea who will win. My guess is it will be somewhere between a Tory majority and a Liberal minority. That and a bit less than four bucks will get you a grande cappuccino at Starbucks.

Edited September 8, 2008 by Wilber

[jdobbin]

It is a tax on carbon, not emissions and the use of that tax revenue has little to do with emissions. The very fact that you maintain a Liberal Government would do anything to retain the entitlements enabled by this tax in the event of that tax revenue decreasing or disappearing puts emissions in second place at best.

Where did I say they would do anything to maintain programs? I said if there was any danger of deficit, programs would be cut. That would be all programs.

The tax wasn't put in place just to fund programs no matter how many times you say it. It is an emission reduction policy and one that has costs that are are predictable rather than the cap and trade which you don't even look at with any interest although you will vote for it.

My interest is less in what party wins than what it will do if it does win. I have no idea who will win. My guess is it will be somewhere between a Tory majority and a Liberal minority. That and a bit less than four bucks will get you a grande cappuccino at Starbucks.

Well, then rest easy. The Liberals are headed for defeat and probably massively and won't be around as a force thereafter. Tom Flanagan predicted last week the end of the party.

[Wilber]

The tax wasn't put in place just to fund programs no matter how many times you say it. It is an emission reduction policy and one that has costs that are are predictable rather than the cap and trade which you don't even look at with any interest although you will vote for it.

s

Really, how much will it increase the cost of manufacturing something like a vehicle or anything else given that the cost of everything that goes into it will be subject to the tax. How much will it increase the cost to produce and transport the food and everything else that we consume? If our manufacturers are put at a disadvantage compared to foreign manufacturers, will you give them some kind of rebate on exports so they can maintain their competitiveness in foreign markets? Will you tax imports so that our manufacturers can remain competitive in our domestic market and if so, how will you calculate it? How much will it increase the cost of a haircut because of the barber's increased overhead? I don't think you have any idea.

[Riverwind]

Really, how much will it increase the cost of manufacturing something like a vehicle or anything else given that the cost of everything that goes into it will be subject to the tax.

What people forget is many manufacturers based in Canada are already hurting because of tighter border security and high dollar. Increasing the cost of transportation could easily be the final straw that forces them to close shop or open relocate south of the border.

I don't think you have any idea.

Of course he doesn't. The carbon tax is magic fairy dust that will force the market to solve all of the problems. Of course, the "solutions" worked out by the market probably won't reduce global CO2 emissions one bit but it will hit Canadians in the pocket book. OTOH, Canadians would be able pat themselves on the back for making pointless sacrifices in order to forestall a disaster that will likely never occur. Edited September 8, 2008 by Riverwind

[jdobbin]

Really, how much will it increase the cost of manufacturing something like a vehicle or anything else given that the cost of everything that goes into it will be subject to the tax. How much will it increase the cost to produce and transport the food and everything else that we consume? If our manufacturers are put at a disadvantage compared to foreign manufacturers, will you give them some kind of rebate on exports so they can maintain their competitiveness in foreign markets? Will you tax imports so that our manufacturers can remain competitive in our domestic market and if so, how will you calculate it? How much will it increase the cost of a haircut because of the barber's increased overhead? I don't think you have any idea.

So support the Tories and their cap and trade. Maybe that will work out better for you.

[jdobbin]

What people forget is many manufacturers based in Canada are already hurting because of tighter border security and high dollar. Increasing the cost of transportation could easily be the final straw that forces them to close shop or open relocate south of the border.

And yet you support the Tory cap and trade plan which definitely has much higher fuel costs. Pure partisan support, I suspect.

Or, you somehow believe the Tories have a secret agenda where they won't fulfill their promise.

Of course he doesn't. The carbon tax is magic fairy dust that will force the market to solve all of the problems. Of course, the "solutions" worked out by the market probably won't reduce global CO2 emissions one bit but it will hit Canadians in the pocket book. OTOH, Canadians would be able pat themselves on the back for making pointless sacrifices in order to forestall a disaster that will likely never occur.

And what does that make the Tory cap and trade plan?

[Wilber]

What people forget is many manufacturers based in Canada are already hurting because of tighter border security and high dollar. Increasing the cost of transportation could easily be the final straw that forces them to close shop or open relocate south of the border.

It's not just the cost of transportation but the cost of the energy to get the ore out of the ground, to smelt it and produce the steel and other metals, the petroleum used in all the plastics and the energy used to make them, as well as the energy required by the plants that assemble them, the list goes on. The same applies to everything else we use.

[betsy]

Aw c'mon. How can the Liberals say that this "Green Shift" is a well-thought out plan when nobody even thought of checking out and ascertain that the name is not yet taken?

Really. Is this not one of the basic rules of business when it comes to choosing a name for it?

Here is a plan that the Liberals say is their main platform, they'll spend hours and dollars promoting it....their political careers will depend on it....and yet they forgot to include the simple name-check before they embark on this grandscale adventure.

They're making things up as they go along. And yesterday, Dion whipped out the CALCULATOR which will be given to each and every household! How much will this cost taxpayers, on top of everything else?

This is a pattern with the Liberals. This is how they perform even when governing. Reckless and sloppy with their programs. This is why their record is peppered with catastrophic boondagles!

We'll end up paying dearly for this. It's just plain as day.

Edited September 8, 2008 by betsy

[TCCK]

Like I have said in other posts, DION and the LIBERALS will play any of the current buzz topics but mark my words NOTHING WILL COME OF HIS ELECTION PROMISES IF the liberals get a majority governement.

EXCEPT giving billions more dollars to QUEBEC.

DON'T DRINK THIER KOOL-AID!!!!

[Who's Doing What?]

Like I have said in other posts, DION and the LIBERALS will play any of the current buzz topics but mark my words NOTHING WILL COME OF HIS ELECTION PROMISES IF the liberals get a majority governement.

EXCEPT giving billions more dollars to QUEBEC.

DON'T DRINK THIER KOOL-AID!!!!

You mean the same KOOL-AID the Conservatives have been feeding us as they pump billions into Quebec?

OR the Kool-Aid that we've been fed so that we believe $100 a month is more than adequate subsitution for actual daycare spaces? And then tax the $100 a month to boot!

Or the Kool-Aid we've been fed that tells us a $0.02 GST cut benifits people who spend less than $50,000 on GST applicable items.? Spend $50,000 on GST applicable items to save $1,000

OR the Kool-Aid we've been fed so that we believe the CPC are the party of integrity, when none has existed since they got Emerson to cross the floor within hours of the last election? They railroaded Stronach only weeks before! Called her a dog and everything!!

Or the Kool-Aid that makes us belive the CPC is the "fiscally responsible" party? They throw money around like they are using Daddy's credit card.

Personally I am ready for a change of flavour.

Edited September 13, 2008 by Who's Doing What?

[TCCK]

You mean the same KOOL-AID the Conservatives have been feeding us as they pump billions into Quebec?

OR the Kool-Aid that we've been fed so that we believe $100 a month is more than adequate subsitution for actual daycare spaces? And then tax the $100 a month to boot!

Or the Kool-Aid we've been fed that tells us a $0.02 GST cut benifits people who spend less than $50,000 on GST applicable items.?

OR the Kool-Aid we've been fed so that we believe the CPC are the party of integrity, when none has existed since they got Emerson to cross the floor within hours of the last election?

Or the Kool-Aid that makes us belive the CPC is the "fiscally responsible" party?

Personally I am ready for a change of flavour.

Where should I start:

The Liberals have given 10-20X more than that to Quebec EVERY ELECTIOIN when they were in power. We all know Quebec only votes if they get money and they will stab the CPC in the back and vote BQ just like they always do. That is a non-issue as EVERY RULING party has done that or worse. (Look back at what Trudeau, Chretien and Paul Martin gave to Quebec before the elections they called.)

I am sorry I do not believe I should pay my tax dollars so a mother can go to work (when her husband does) and I HAVE TO SUBSIDIZE HER DAY CARE BILL??? A single mom with no other finacial supporter in the family is a differnt matter and I support single mom's getting back on thier feet with government help like subsidized day care. BUT REMEMBER the Liberals did not come to the floor to help the CPC to get some of the footwork legislation that has to be in place first befroe the day-care subsidy bill goes through so you can thank the Liberals for that!!

A 2% cut in the GST is better than the "abolishing of the GST" Chretian promised and then he NEVER did it plus he added more taxes to the already tax burdened Canadian citizen.

Stephen Harper is going at a consistant rate to cut the GST and do it in a way that the budget is not hurt along with the national economy.

And how many Conservatives did the Liberals bribe and convince to come across the floor in the last 20-30 years just to play dirty and cut the power of the CPC vote??? More than the CPC has ever even though of. Remember Belinda S???

The CPC has done a better job at balancing the Canadian Budget in the past couple of years than all the previous Liberal governments of the last 20-30 years. Liberals SPEND AND SPEND even if it means increasing your taxes!!! Cause they do not know how to have fiscal restrain in spending especially when it comes to projects that help their friends companies.

I am ready for a change too, a MAJORITY CONSERVATIVE government that will bring major reform to the young offenders act so that kids will stop doing CRIME! make people responsible for their actions and dole out appropriate punishments. (Not 3 years of murder 1 by a 16 year old boy!!) A government that has the balls to do what is right when it comes to corporations that break laws especially enviromental impacting issues. A government that brings moral values back to this nation, and rewards those that walk with integrity and help out the less fortunate.

THAT IS A MAJORITY CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT PEOPLE!!

Dont drink the LIBERAL Kool-Aid, it'll brainwash you and eventually kill you!!!

[betsy]

I cringe at the amount of dollars Dion is promising: They're all MAJOR spendings!

UNIVERSAL daycare. Universal! This is a mammoth spending! It will go way, way beyond that boondagle called the Gun Registry that ate up billions.

CARBON TAX! Our bills on our groceries, heating etc.. which are NECESSITIES will all go up! Why do you think people from BC are angry? Because they'd seen their bills!

Calculators for each and every household.

Yesterday, he's talking about green mortgages (I didn't even want to know)!

Of course he'll raise our taxes! He has to.

[capricorn]

Like I have said in other posts, DION and the LIBERALS will play any of the current buzz topics but mark my words NOTHING WILL COME OF HIS ELECTION PROMISES IF the liberals get a majority governement.

You mean I wouldn't get $10,000. to replace my windows or my $10,000. green mortgage as promised?

The Liberal leader promised up to $10,000 in tax breaks for home retrofits and another $10,000 in interest-free "green mortgages" to help homeowners fund the projects.

http://green.sympatico.msn.ca/canadianpres...cumentid=632170

Now you've got me thinking TCCK.

Edited September 13, 2008 by capricorn

[jdobbin]

CARBON TAX! Our bills on our groceries, heating etc.. which are NECESSITIES will all go up! Why do you think people from BC are angry? Because they'd seen their bills!

You must be upset that Harper's plan for greenhouse gases will cost $8 to $9 billion a year on fuel and the like as well.

[TCCK]

All this BS on "GREEN" political promises SUCKS!!

The top scientists in the Enviroment field that are all being blacklisted because they are speaking out against the whole "CLimate Change" issue. It is solar flares thus why Mecury, Mars, Venus are experincing the same climate change issues.

So all this BS on "green" polical promises is just fueling one thing : the businesses that are feeding the lie and selling ECO products.

Do not get me wrong I believe we should be good stewards or our Earth but the "GREEN" is looking more like brown stuff hitting the fan and it just costs us as taxpayers and consumers.

I want real issues dealt with:

1) Young offenders punished appropriately,

2) helping families to be strong and stay together thus stopping the single parent homes that lack attention to kids and kids become young offenders and problems

3) Canada supplies all its own gas so regulate the gas industry in Canada and stop thier price fixing

4) elimination of ALL debt

5) Integrate the aboriginal Canadians into Canadian society and stop the free hand outs for people that are broken and need to ALL become productive Canadian citizens (Some are awesome and make us causcasins look bad but definitely not the majority.) I want them to be proud of their heritage and overcome the past.

6) Quebec......do I need to say more??

7) government spending regulated

[Ontario Loyalist]

The top scientists in the Enviroment field that are all being blacklisted because they are speaking out against the whole "CLimate Change" issue. It is solar flares thus why Mecury, Mars, Venus are experincing the same climate change issues.

Names?

Scientists who deny/refute the manmade climate change phenomena are definitely on the fringe. Just like that guy who said the world was going to get sucked into a black hole because of that experiment in Switzerland. Wonder what he's up to nowadays?

[Wild Bill]

Names?

Scientists who deny/refute the manmade climate change phenomena are definitely on the fringe. Just like that guy who said the world was going to get sucked into a black hole because of that experiment in Switzerland. Wonder what he's up to nowadays?

I'd like to quote you post #16, of your very own!

"The fact of the matter is that these people were willing to take the risk not knowing for certain what the consequences were going to be. And the expiriments have just begun. Just because the majority of scientists thought that this thing would cause no problems doesn't justify taking the risk."

You seem to be flexible in your views.

[Rue]

The tax cuts woud be more than offset by higher prices. The only carbon taxes that work are carbon taxes that don't spend the proceeds on new social programs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/25/opinion/...?pagewanted=all

The op ends with this advice:

Ironically, the conservative plan is already very close to this model. I say ironic because most environmentalists criticize the conservative plan.

Actually most economists do as well and therein lies the irony. Harper has convinced Canada he is touting conservative economic principles. He is not. He is selling Social Credit economic theories not conservative ones. In fact the green shift type model is supported by many conservative economists. Its creators the Green Party are in fact right wing economists not left wing ones.

Harper's approach is actually a stale left over socialist one. He and jack Layton have so much in common these days.

I again think your comment that carbon taxes spent on social programs is dead on and what the economists have warned. For it to work you the carbon tax has to be put back into the economic sector not the social sector.

My problem with Dion is he has failed miserably toe xplain the carbon tax scheme and not just in English but in French. He has no clue how to speak in short sentences. He just can not do it.

The sad thing is the carnon tax scheme is actually more conservative and far safer and easier to control then the one Harper touts which actually fuels increases in gas prices.

The bottom line is Harper will get his majority, we will get a state wide Mike Harris regime and five years from now Canada will do what it did in Ontario after they had their fill with Harris, elect anyone but the Tories. By then Harper and his cronies will be ready to move on to board of director and corporate positions and continue their elite sheltered lives while we shmucks will probably see our houses foreclosed on, huge unemployment rates and a whopper of a recession everyone will refuse to call a recession.

But on the other hand, there will be people who speculate on other peoples' misery and will become the next geenration's elite by taking advantage of the economuic collapse to buy things cheap and then sit on them and wait for the next cycle to revive the economy, provided the planet hasn't completely been destroyed by hurricanes by then and we haven't had any nuclear terrorist attack that has wiped out a major trading market.

Let them eat cake damn it.

[marksman]

Aw c'mon. How can the Liberals say that this "Green Shift" is a well-thought out plan when nobody even thought of checking out and ascertain that the name is not yet taken?

The name of a plan has nothing to do with the substance of a plan. They could've checked the name in advance and decided on something different but none of that means anything for how well the substance of the plan was thought out.

For example we have "fixed election date legislation" that doesn't actually create a fixed election date. Bottom line is I don't care what a politician names their plan I only care about what the plan actually does or doesn't do.

[Rue]

I cringe at the amount of dollars Dion is promising: They're all MAJOR spendings!

UNIVERSAL daycare. Universal! This is a mammoth spending! It will go way, way beyond that boondagle called the Gun Registry that ate up billions.

CARBON TAX! Our bills on our groceries, heating etc.. which are NECESSITIES will all go up! Why do you think people from BC are angry? Because they'd seen their bills!

Calculators for each and every household.

Yesterday, he's talking about green mortgages (I didn't even want to know)!

Of course he'll raise our taxes! He has to.

In fairness you should cringe. The numbers do not add up. But then neither do Harper's. In fact add them up. Harper is spending just as much and his numbers do not add up either.

The fact is politicians during elections make idiot promises. Its not particular to Dion. Also your assumption that your grocery and heating bills will go up because of a carbon tax is just not right. That is one of many misunderstandings as to how the carbon tax would work.

In fact your grocery and heating bills will go up under the Harper scheme absolutely no different then what you think the carbon tax will do. Yes you should take your calculator and sit down in a quiet room and see whether there is in fact any difference between what Harper is now doing and what you think Dion will do.

I do not blame you for thinking Dion is an idiot spewing numbers about. He is. But use that same skepticism when examining what Harper says, and no I will not even discuss that idiot Layton.

By the way before you cringe at a green mortgage find out what it is and take a look at your current mortgage and what is happening with mortgage lending rates. That is directly linked to the increasing prices of gas.

If we do not find a way to end our dependency on gas, you will go broke. I think you know that. You can keep putting that off and refuse to deal with it and buy into what Harper tells you because after all it sounds better, and you are not expected to do anything, or you can start to look at your lfiestyle and say, regardless of who gets elected in the next 20 years the world as we know it will drastically change. Our consumer lifestyle can not be sustained and things will change, forced upon us by crisis because that is what we humans do, wait until a crisis forces us to change before we change.

[marksman]

So all this BS on "green" polical promises is just fueling one thing : the businesses that are feeding the lie and selling ECO products.

Yes we've all heard of the "big green" lobby. Those poor oil companies are really on the run. When will they get a voice in politics?

I want real issues dealt with:

1) Young offenders punished appropriately,

2) helping families to be strong and stay together thus stopping the single parent homes that lack attention to kids and kids become young offenders and problems

3) Canada supplies all its own gas so regulate the gas industry in Canada and stop thier price fixing

4) elimination of ALL debt

5) Integrate the aboriginal Canadians into Canadian society and stop the free hand outs for people that are broken and need to ALL become productive Canadian citizens (Some are awesome and make us causcasins look bad but definitely not the majority.) I want them to be proud of their heritage and overcome the past.

6) Quebec......do I need to say more??

7) government spending regulated

There're a number of problems with that list. The massive damage to the economy if you tried to eliminate all debt in the shortterm is 1 problem. Wanting aboriginals to overcome their past of being forced to integrate by forcing them to integrate is another problem.

[Moonbox]

If we do not find a way to end our dependency on gas, you will go broke. I think you know that. You can keep putting that off and refuse to deal with it and buy into what Harper tells you because after all it sounds better, and you are not expected to do anything, or you can start to look at your lfiestyle and say, regardless of who gets elected in the next 20 years the world as we know it will drastically change. Our consumer lifestyle can not be sustained and things will change, forced upon us by crisis because that is what we humans do, wait until a crisis forces us to change before we change.

but this is where the difference in political and economic philosophies becomes apparent. Despite whatever any party 'thinks' needs to be done, the average human being is at least intelligent enough to understand that fuel is quickly becoming too expensive to use it the way it was once used. Corporations and businesses are also beginning to see it cut into their bottom line. Business and consumers will by NECESSITY make adjustments to their production and consumption habits because to not do so will ruin them.

Gas prices are already hurting people. This is already forcing people to change. Canadians have the choice now to choose a government that is either going to ram the transition down our throats via carbon taxes or they can be allowed to naturally make the transition when it is beneficial to them (that would be the conservative choice by the way.)

As fuel prices rise, people will be forced to cut back energy use at home. They will be forced to buy smaller cars. Companies will be forced to become energy efficient lest their competitors gain a competitive price advantage because of better fuel savings. All the things Dion and the Liberals are looking to FORCE will happen naturally without the immediate shock and costs of a carbon tax. The carbon tax, when you get right down to it, is nothing but a centralized money-grab to fund social services.