are we underestimating Dion?

[Stephen Best]

I doubt it but a yard stick could be:

Left

Believes the Government should be responsible for the happeness of the people

Right

Believes that individuals should be responible for their own happiness

Centrists

Believes that both government and the people are partners in the peoples happiness.

How is it you can hold these views, when there is no evidence to support them? Are you really suggesting that a full description of the concepts of "left", "right" and "centrist" can be made in a statement that could be printed on a bumper sticker? Do you have a definition for the vague term "happiness"? Can you tell us who, in our complex society, are the "people"? We need that insight because, one person's happiness may be at the price of another's misery. Surely, you can't be offering these as a serious premises?

Edited August 27, 2008 by Stephen Best

[jdobbin]

No, the carbon tax is wealth distribution, the ethanol program is an investment in industry and one of the ways the americans are reducing foreign oil.

But not one of the ways Canada needs to. It is a farm support system disguised as environmental program that hurts some farmers while helping others.

[blueblood]

But not one of the ways Canada needs to. It is a farm support system disguised as environmental program that hurts some farmers while helping others.

Why not? Canada produces far more grain that it can ever consume. Americans and Easterners use large amounts of energy, that needs to be addressed and is. The sheer amount of ethanol produced in the states very likely prevented gasoline rationing.

[peter_puck]

Wrong on 3 out of 4 counts.

The Liberals are a big tent centrist party, the BQ are nationalist first, centrist second and can win only Quebec where the NDP won zip....and the Greens are just highly irrelevant . Their 4.5% of the popular vote can hardly be used to claim they split the vote in any riding. Indeed.....their best showing had them trounced completely. The inclusion of the Greens is strictly for comic relief.

That leaves the NDP and yes, the are very left of centre.

I don't think I get your argument. Even if the Greens are "irrelevent", they are still, MOSTLY left of centre (with a small conservative minority). The BQ may be nationalist first, but they are left of centre second. While the Liberals dance all around the political spectrum, under Dion they are camped to the left of centre.

[peter_puck]

Why not? Canada produces far more grain that it can ever consume. Americans and Easterners use large amounts of energy, that needs to be addressed and is. The sheer amount of ethanol produced in the states very likely prevented gasoline rationing.

The sad fact is, you get little or no net energy from ethanol (at least from grain/corn). When you add up all the diesel fuel needed to plant/farm/distel/transport ethanol you come out somewhere close to zero net energy savings (some argue a little higher, some a little lower).

Governments spend billions to cause massive food inflation that starves the third world while doing no good except creating massive profits for the same giant agricultural cartels that drove the family farmer to bankruptcy by price fixing.

It is a good photo op backed by big donations from the above mentioned agricultural cartels (one of which

If Karl Marx were alive today, he would say ethanol is the opiate of the fuel sucking masses.

[jdobbin]

Why not? Canada produces far more grain that it can ever consume. Americans and Easterners use large amounts of energy, that needs to be addressed and is. The sheer amount of ethanol produced in the states very likely prevented gasoline rationing.

There was no danger of gas rationing. The increase in inflation has probably done more damage than anything else in terms of ethanol.

[blueblood]

The sad fact is, you get little or no net energy from ethanol (at least from grain/corn). When you add up all the diesel fuel needed to plant/farm/distel/transport ethanol you come out somewhere close to zero net energy savings (some argue a little higher, some a little lower).

Governments spend billions to cause massive food inflation that starves the third world while doing no good except creating massive profits for the same giant agricultural cartels that drove the family farmer to bankruptcy by price fixing.

It is a good photo op backed by big donations from the above mentioned agricultural cartels (one of which

If Karl Marx were alive today, he would say ethanol is the opiate of the fuel sucking masses.

I am a family farmer, ethanol has been very good for me. As far as the fuel equation, I'm sorry but that fuel gets used anyways whether the grain is used for food, fuel, or confetti. I grow 2000 acres every year like clockwork and use the same amount of fuel every year like clockwork, the only thing that changes is the customer.

Why do I owe third world people cheap food? American and European gov'ts spend billons of dollars in the 90's to flood third world countries with cheap food and force their farmers out of business.

The developed world craves energy, farmers are answering the call. If we get a better price to turn grain into gasoline guess what happens. If you want to produce food at less than the cost of production to give away to the third world, by all means have at it.

As for the carbon tax, farmers are being asked to store carbon with carbon credits, have developed practices that have cut fuel comsumption in half, are providing a fuel that can be grown and is renewable, and are big contributers to geothermal heating, and what do we get for it from Dion, a bloody tax punishing us. Popping a huge tax on carbon is going to cause a massive increase in food prices and at the same time put farmers back in the poor house. We're better off with ethanol and doing nothing.

[Moonbox]

I am a family farmer, ethanol has been very good for me. As far as the fuel equation, I'm sorry but that fuel gets used anyways whether the grain is used for food, fuel, or confetti. I grow 2000 acres every year like clockwork and use the same amount of fuel every year like clockwork, the only thing that changes is the customer.

Why do I owe third world people cheap food? American and European gov'ts spend billons of dollars in the 90's to flood third world countries with cheap food and force their farmers out of business.

The developed world craves energy, farmers are answering the call. If we get a better price to turn grain into gasoline guess what happens. If you want to produce food at less than the cost of production to give away to the third world, by all means have at it.

As for the carbon tax, farmers are being asked to store carbon with carbon credits, have developed practices that have cut fuel comsumption in half, are providing a fuel that can be grown and is renewable, and are big contributers to geothermal heating, and what do we get for it from Dion, a bloody tax punishing us. Popping a huge tax on carbon is going to cause a massive increase in food prices and at the same time put farmers back in the poor house. We're better off with ethanol and doing nothing.

While I'm 100% against any carbon or gas taxes at this point in time, one of the policies of western governments right now that makes me want to pull my hair out is ethanol fuel.

While I respect where you are coming from Blueblood (I would do the same if I was a family farmer) the fact is that ethanol fuel is a gigantic waste of money and resources for pretty much everyone everywhere. The only thing it has going for it is that it's renewable. Now for the bad:

Ethanol costs more money to bring to the pumps. It is expensive to transport (it's corrossive and requires more careful transport and mixing with other gasolines).

Ethanol is about 30% less fuel efficient than regular gasoline. While you cause less pollution per tank of gas with ethanol in it, the lessened fuel efficiency just means you're going to burn more gas.

The reallocation of land from food crops to subsidized corn ethanol production also increases the food prices, and has already done so worldwide. The price of bread has increased unbelievably this year for this very reason.

So the average taxpayer would have to ask, "Why are we subsidizing farmers just so we can pay more at the pumps and more at the grocery store?"

It's literally one of the stupidest policies in recent Canadian government history, providing literally no net benefit to an average Canadian while at the same time costing him/her a crapton of money.

Mark my words, corn ethanol production isn't going to last. It's one of the least efficient sources of energy we have going right now. When enough people realize that they can directly blame it for the empty holes in their wallets, the policies will be dropped.

Honestly, if the Liberals made it a policy to cancel ethanol fuel subsidies, I would vote for them, despite the fact that I like nothing else about them.

Edited August 29, 2008 by Moonbox

[Fortunata]

Honestly, if the Liberals made it a policy to cancel ethanol fuel subsidies, I would vote for them, despite the fact that I like nothing else about them.

I'll get right on the phone to Dion. I'll tell him he can make a break-through.

[normanchateau]

Liberals, NDP, BQ, and Green are the major left of centre parties and they command about 65% of the vote between them.

Exactly. About 65% of Canadians are more socially progressive than the Conservatives. Ironically, even within the Conservative Party of Canada, Harper represents the social conservative wing of the party judging by how he has voted in the past. Given that the task of Conservatives is to capture some of those 65% of Canadians to win a majority, they might consider a social moderate as leader next time.

[peter_puck]

I am a family farmer, ethanol has been very good for me. As far as the fuel equation, I'm sorry but that fuel gets used anyways whether the grain is used for food, fuel, or confetti. I grow 2000 acres every year like clockwork and use the same amount of fuel every year like clockwork, the only thing that changes is the customer.

How much ethanol do you put in your tractor ? How much of a profit would you make from ethanol if it were not subsidized ? How much profit would you make if you had to pay tax on the diesel fuel you use at the farm ?

Ethanol may be good for you, but as an economic policy it sucks. The government would be better off writing you a cheque.

The developed world craves energy, farmers are answering the call.

Perhaps the farmers in Brazil are (they make it out of sugar cane, much more effecient), but the farmers in the US in Canada are answering the call of a complex government handout policy.

[blueblood]

In about 2012, I will be putting in at least 2% biodiesel in all my trucks and farm equipment. That's 2% savings right there.

I'd probably do as well as the Alberta Oilpatch under NEP as far as the non-subsidy thing goes. The gov't "subsidizes" the Alberta Oilpatch, was that a dumb policy???

The government used to write cheques, that cheque only covered one tank of fuel and cost the taxpayers a pile of money. With higher grain prices I can contribute back into the economy, implement dealers are sold out of equipment. Demand for fertilizer has created a large demand for jobs out in Saskatchewan to mine Potash. Stock prices in companies such as Monsanto, Agrium, PotashCorp, etc. have risen significantly in a Stock Market that has been hurting. I dropped over 200 large on equipment this year, the GST from that is more than most people's income taxes. Those plants themselves also provide jobs, but I guess some people aren't allowed to work. Oh then there's the farmers from third world nations that don't have to compete against food dumping from countries that have cheap food policies. I think that sounds like a good deal for everyone.

Why should I be forced to give food handouts to people who won't produce their own? I'm a taxpayer just like the rest of Canadian's, if I want to lobby for ethanol, that's my right.

Ethanol production will not only continue to last, it will expand. When those plants are paid off, they make a ton of money, why would a government want to stop a cash cow? The sheer volume of ethanol produced in the states has made the high gas prices in the states somewhat reasonable instead of outrageous.

The price of bread hasn't risen that much, the average Canadian isn't going to go broke buying bread. That's why the government only implemented a small percentage. The only thing that's going to happen is there's less grain to go to Iran or Pakistan, guess what they can grow their own or go elsewhere, I don't owe them cheap grain.

By having food prices at higher levels it keeps farms profitable, the more farms that are profitable means the more farms that exist, the more farms that exist means more competition and it puts a ceiling on prices. The way things were going 5 yrs. ago would have resulted in giant outfits being able to afford to shut down and manipulate the prices in much worse ways.

Grain production in Canada was being overproduced, we were producing too much. Now we are just burning waste grain, food prices are still reasonable, we have a booming industry, there are more dollars floating around in the economy, no more tractor parades in Ottawa, and those smart enough to invest in Ag biz companies are making money.

The Carbon Tax however will be much more disasterous on food prices. Grain prices at the gate have increased by over 100% thanks in part to ethanol while at the same time food prices only jumped about 20%. So blaming farmers for high food prices is proposterous. The high cost of fuel is what is driving prices across the board, including food/grain. Now Dion wants to make fuel even more expensive. That will result in fertilizer being more expensive, fuel being more expensive, chemical more expensive, electricity more expensive -> those are my costs, and I can't pass those to the consumer because grain is a commodity and there is too much competition from other farmers. Then my customers have to deal with higher freight and processing which means I get less and you guys have to pay more in order for the middle man to pay expenses and turn a profit, not only that the middle man's stock shares decrease hurting you guys even more. So with the Carbon Tax everyone loses.

Ethanol compared to this looks much better to the average Canadian. When a country is a net exporter of goods, higher prices is a good thing for that country. To be defend the oil patch making money hand over fist due to high energy prices and at the same time attack the farmer for making money due to high grain prices is sheer hypocrisy.

The Western World values energy as much as food, I'm providing a service and am finally getting fairly compensated for it.

[normanchateau]

I find Dion hard to understand and personally think that Bob Rae would make a better leader, but that is not the way it is.

Let's face it. Stephane Dion is leader because the two front runners, Rae and Ignatieff split the vote. Similarly, Canada is stuck with Harper because the 65% of Canadians who oppose right wing social conservatives split their vote between four different political parties.

I'm looking forward to this election as it can ultimately only lead to improvement for Canada one way or another.

Even Harper acknowledges that the best he can hope for is a minority government with an increase in CPC MPs. Should that happen, I don't anticipate Dion will remain long as opposition leader. Whoever replaces him will certainly defeat Harper in the subsequent election.

The alternative most likely outcome is a minority government lead by Dion. Should that happen, I don't expect that CPC support for Harper will be long-lasting except among the religious right. Harper will slither back to the National Citizens' Coalition or the like. CPC will pick a fiscally conservative social moderate who will defeat Dion in the subsequent election.

[peter_puck]

I would agree with what you are saying if you produced something of value with crops that go towards fuel. I don't think the family farmer is the bad guy here- its the large companies like ADM (the same people that destroyed the US family farm through price fixing in the 70's) are.

The problem is that for every BTU of ethanol you produce, you consume a BTU of diesel. Some studies show this is negative, some say its positive, but nobody shows that corn ethanol produces a large gain in energy. We are not making energy, we are converting diesel to ethanol.(while wasting vast amounts of good farm land and farmers time).

If you want to address the financial situation of the family farmer, this is not the way to do it. If you want to address the fuel shortage, this is not the way to do it.

If ethanol can be run without a subsidy, then fine, but until then, it makes no sense.

[Oleg Bach]

There was corporate collectavism by Stalin in the Ukraine. This is the same thing execpt that the corporates are right wing instead of left. It did not work in the long run then and will not work now. Communalism or the communiZation of private farms kills the spirit of the grower and makes him feel like a slave - slaves never work as hard as freemen. Also enthanol is a bizarre and sinful concept in it's own - to feed human food to a machine is insanity and defeats the purpose of human existance in the fact that we are to be served by nature - not our creation that are non-human...

- feed a horse grain - that's fine - feed a man grain is also good - but to feed a damned car grain in the form of ethanol - is stupid...so put it this way - you drive to work to earn money so your car can eat - better to stay home and grow a garden and skip the middle man ( or middle machine). We come first not a box of bolts and grease in the form of human ego and self worth - it's a car for God's sake - just like a dog is a dog and not a child.

[normanchateau]

While I didn't share Reform's view of "good policy", in my view Preston Manning should be counted as a truly great Canadian. If he hadn't pushed so hard for fiscal responsibility I doubt that the Liberals would have been so aggressive at dealing with the deficit and Canadian finances in general.

I wonder if Preston Manning ever envisioned that his then finance critic, Stephen Harper, would create the largest increases in government spending in the history of Canada.

[Oleg Bach]

I wonder if Preston Manning ever envisioned that his then finance critic, Stephen Harper, would create the largest increases in government spending in the history of Canada.

Manning and Dion are like twins - soft and sweet and girly...oh - Harper was just feeding the machine as instructed - Bush was looting with a fraudulent war that Cheney's buddies profit by and Harper was just helping the Americans - it's called buisness - so where is my cut ?

[normanchateau]

Manning and Dion are like twins - soft and sweet and girly...oh - Harper was just feeding the machine as instructed -

What's wrong with soft and sweet and girly?

[Oleg Bach]

What's wrong with soft and sweet and girly?

As you know - being a male is illegal in the ear of no good deed goes unpunished. Being a man is a no no - men stand up for the rights and diginity of others..and the powers that be want girly men running the operation...I have a friend who has a brain injury from breach birth - he wabbles and we laugh to gether at the fact that we are not allowed to be men. He used to think that it was his dis-abiltiy that made him girl friendless - now he knows that it's because he is a man - much like woman are programmed to avoid intelligent uncontrolable men - and there is nothing wrong with being a gentleman that is soft and sweet and girly at times - BUT you have to be able to be a man at the right moments - what good is a soft and warm liberal peace maker that can not wage a defensive war? Usless - girly men are useless in a crisis.

[blueblood]

I would agree with what you are saying if you produced something of value with crops that go towards fuel. I don't think the family farmer is the bad guy here- its the large companies like ADM (the same people that destroyed the US family farm through price fixing in the 70's) are.

The problem is that for every BTU of ethanol you produce, you consume a BTU of diesel. Some studies show this is negative, some say its positive, but nobody shows that corn ethanol produces a large gain in energy. We are not making energy, we are converting diesel to ethanol.(while wasting vast amounts of good farm land and farmers time).

If you want to address the financial situation of the family farmer, this is not the way to do it. If you want to address the fuel shortage, this is not the way to do it.

If ethanol can be run without a subsidy, then fine, but until then, it makes no sense.

In another thread debating this issue it was pointed out that it takes 7 barrells of oil to make 8 of ethanol. That's a gain, then there is the fact that Grain is produced all the time no matter who uses it, We're still burning oil, so you can take off 3 or four barrells of oil because that gets burned in normal ag production.

Companies like ADM may have destroyed the family farm but urban folks let it happen. Corn shows a gain in energy production, before it was made into tortillas and given away, now it's worth something and helping meet energy demands. There are billions of litres of biofuel produced now, the only thing that has changed is that there is less tortillas and cooking oil being made now.

My time's not being wasted, my time out in the field is now profitable. This was a much better way to address the financial situation of family farmers. Instead of 4 billion dollars going to grain farm programs which didn't do anything, 2.3 billion is being spent and jobs and better returns are all over the place.

With gas prices they are today, ethanol would have been productive to start right now without subsidies, the US and Canadian gov't just was proactive. Does an Alberta oilfield subsidy in the 1990's not make sense?

[peter_puck]

In another thread debating this issue it was pointed out that it takes 7 barrells of oil to make 8 of ethanol.

Thats not gain. The energy density of ethanol is much less than diesel. You could travel farther on the barrel of oil than you could on the 8 barrels of ethanol. Energy density of crude is maybe 50% more or so. So 7 barrels of oil would equal 10.5 of ethanol in terms of energy. (yes, its more complicated than that but this is the readers digest version)

In another thread debating this issue it was

Corn shows a gain in energy production, before it was made into tortillas and given away, now it's worth something and helping meet energy demands.

If there is no market for something, it shouldn't be made. The tortilla give away was dumb idea, but not any dumber than the biofuel idea.

My time's not being wasted, my time out in the field is now profitable. This was a much better way to address the financial situation of family farmers. Instead of 4 billion dollars going to grain farm programs which didn't do anything, 2.3 billion is being spent and jobs and better returns are all over the place.

According to your own figures above: You take a 7 barrels of oil and turn it into the energy equivalent of 5.5 barrels of oil. You no doubt spend a lot of time and energy doing this. You may make a profit at it, but in terms of Canada as nation, you are doing worse than wasting your time. You are being paid to waste energy.

With gas prices they are today, ethanol would have been productive to start right now without subsidies, the US and Canadian gov't just was proactive.

GOOD!, lets let private industry solve the problem and end the subsidies!!

Does an Alberta oilfield subsidy in the 1990's not make sense?

No! My point is , ethanol is a bad idea. You can argue all you want that there are dumber ideas, but that doesn't make yours (ethanol) less dumb.

If we want to grow are own energy, we should be spending our money trying to make it produce a clear energy gain and be profitable. Every dollar we pay ADM to waste money and energy could be better spent trying to find a way to convert cellulose into fuel in an economical way.

Edited August 31, 2008 by peter_puck

[Keepitsimple]

Back to the thread topic. Yes - we are underestimating Dion. We are underestimating how poorly he will do.

[blueblood]

Thats not gain. The energy density of ethanol is much less than diesel. You could travel farther on the barrel of oil than you could on the 8 barrels of ethanol. Energy density of crude is maybe 50% more or so. So 7 barrels of oil would equal 10.5 of ethanol in terms of energy. (yes, its more complicated than that but this is the readers digest version)

If there is no market for something, it shouldn't be made. The tortilla give away was dumb idea, but not any dumber than the biofuel idea.

According to your own figures above: You take a 7 barrels of oil and turn it into the energy equivalent of 5.5 barrels of oil. You no doubt spend a lot of time and energy doing this. You may make a profit at it, but in terms of Canada as nation, you are doing worse than wasting your time. You are being paid to waste energy.

GOOD!, lets let private industry solve the problem and end the subsidies!!

No! My point is , ethanol is a bad idea. You can argue all you want that there are dumber ideas, but that doesn't make yours (ethanol) less dumb.

If we want to grow are own energy, we should be spending our money trying to make it produce a clear energy gain and be profitable. Every dollar we pay ADM to waste money and energy could be better spent trying to find a way to convert cellulose into fuel in an economical way.

what do you mean not gain? Instead of a big pile of grain there is fuel. What do you think before ethanol farmers sat in the coffee shop all day? No wasting energy is producing grain to rot in a pile to be given away and be poorer as a result.

No market for ethanol??? Tell that to the Americans. 4 bucks a gallon plus an energy policy that is rivalling the space race tells me there is a market for ethanol.

It's better to spend that 7 barrells of oil to produce fuel that motorists use than to produce grain that rots in a pile.

The Alberta oil subsidy is not a dumb idea, it provided the startup to get the infrastructure to produce more oil and attract investment in order to pump it out in the first place. Same with ethanol. Why is paying ADM a waste of money, the better they do, the better my stock portfolio is. If your concerned with ADM making a fortune, invest in the company.

As for underestimating Dion, I am underestimating his logic. I am being punished for doing my part to improve the environment.

[peter_puck]

what do you mean not gain? Instead of a big pile of grain there is fuel. What do you think before ethanol farmers sat in the coffee shop all day? No wasting energy is producing grain to rot in a pile to be given away and be poorer as a result.

Again, you are using more fuel than you making (according to the figures you quoted in your last post). You may be right that producing grain to rot would waste more, but that is a lousy argument. It is like choosing between coke and speed. If I can't choose something productive, choose nothing at all. If there is no market for something then don't make it.

No market for ethanol??? Tell that to the Americans. 4 bucks a gallon plus an energy policy that is rivalling the space race tells me there is a market for ethanol.

Then why are you not using this wonderful cheap fuel in your farm equipment ? Take away the subsidies and it cost more than $4 to make. Make the consumer pay the real price (no subsidies and the same tax as gas) and nobody will use ethanol again.

The Alberta oil subsidy is not a dumb idea, it provided the startup to get the infrastructure to produce more oil and attract investment in order to pump it out in the first place. Same with ethanol.

I disagree that the subsidy was a good idea. But thats beside the point. The subsidy was used to jump start a technology that had the potential to be profitable.

Corn ethanol will never be a suitable fuel. Its not a matter about how you refine it, its a matter of the energy in the plant.

Why is paying ADM a waste of money, the better they do, the better my stock portfolio is. If your concerned with ADM making a fortune, invest in the company.

Because you are paying them to waste money!. What does Canada get for its 2 Billion ? Why not take that 2 Billion dollars and pay farmer to bury a few million Canadian Tire power boxes in their fields. Canadian tire stock will go up, farmers will make money.

Why not spend the money to try to come up with a viable technology. Cellulose ethanol will be a game changer once it is perfected. Why not spend the money there.

As for underestimating Dion, I am underestimating his logic. I am being punished for doing my part to improve the environment.

Making ethanol is not doing your part to improve the environment. As for other things farmers do.......I think the tax should be aimed at those people who have the ability to change. I really don't know enough about farming to say how farmers can improve fuel consumption, but if there is little they can do, there is little point in taxing them under a carbon tax plan. (which again, is too blunt an instrument). I would support an idiot tax. Want to buy a Hummer, here is your tax. New home built with poor insulation - here is your bill. Just bought a tank water heater -here you go. Want to use those old light bulbs ? Its gonna cost you.

[normanchateau]

...men stand up for the rights and diginity of others...

So do women. Unfortunately not enough women are elected prime minister or president to prove that they would defend the rights and dignity of their citizens.