PoliticalCitizen Posted August 15, 2008 Report Posted August 15, 2008 We have clearly witnessed the beginning of Cold War II between US and Russia. US is trying to get more and more former Socialist countries into NATO, isolating Russia militarily and neutralizing Russia's nuclear potential. But has NATO not outlived its purpose? It was the West's answer to Warsaw Pact, wich is now defunct and forgotten. It appears that today NATO is an instrument of USA's imperialistic ambitions in the world. At this point the members of NATO should stop and ponder: do they want to be dragged into the wars and confrontations that US is creating in all parts of the world? "Russia must be punished", they say. It is easy and convenient for US, being on another continent and having no important economic relations with Russia. For European countries it is quite the opposite. They have good economic relations with Russia and many of them rely on Russian gas and oil. It would make a lot more sense for Europe to have a Pan-European military alliance that would not include USA. Quote You are what you do.
AngusThermopyle Posted August 15, 2008 Report Posted August 15, 2008 It appears that today NATO is an instrument of USA's imperialistic ambitions in the world. It appears that you really don't know how NATO functions. You do know how to spell it though, thats good. Quote I yam what I yam - Popeye
M.Dancer Posted August 15, 2008 Report Posted August 15, 2008 If NATO is the only thing that stands between the civilised world and russioan kleptocracy and barbarism, then NATO raison d'tere is sound. As long as Russia thinks nothing of raping and pillaging her neighbours then NATO is needed. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 15, 2008 Report Posted August 15, 2008 ...It would make a lot more sense for Europe to have a Pan-European military alliance that would not include USA. Oh sure...great idea....would have worked out quite well in 1939 when Russia and Germany had a party. Poor Russia....a has been superpower that just can't figure it out. Even Nigeria's e-mail scams are better than Russia's. The damn Americans are knocking at the door in Poland, Ukraine, and Stans.....oh my...how did it come to this. But....it's not the Russians...it's Russia. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 Oh sure...great idea....would have worked out quite well in 1939 when Russia and Germany had a party. Poor Russia....a has been superpower that just can't figure it out. Even Nigeria's e-mail scams are better than Russia's. The damn Americans are knocking at the door in Poland, Ukraine, and Stans.....oh my...how did it come to this. But....it's not the Russians...it's Russia. I kind of felt I wouldn't find a lot of supporters here... But hey - thanks for bringing some details up. Why is it the Americans that are knocking a Georgia's door? They are not neighbors or even distant relatives. What business to they have in that region? Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 It appears that you really don't know how NATO functions. You do know how to spell it though, thats good. You may be right... Do you mind summarizing it for me? Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 If NATO is the only thing that stands between the civilised world and russioan kleptocracy and barbarism, then NATO raison d'tere is sound. As long as Russia thinks nothing of raping and pillaging her neighbours then NATO is needed. So you agree then that the missle shield in Europe is not meant to protect US from Iran Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 I kind of felt I wouldn't find a lot of supporters here... Don't blame me...the uncouth Russia has never been welcomed as part of Europe. Even the Nazis new which side was best to surrender. But hey - thanks for bringing some details up. Why is it the Americans that are knocking a Georgia's door? Because we want to deliver blue jeans and DVDs in person, rather than black market. They are not neighbors or even distant relatives. Didn't seem to bother General Zhukov: Quoting from "The Role of Lend-Lease in Soviet Military Efforts, 1941-1945" by BORIS V. SOKOLOV: "Speaking about our readiness for war from the point of view of the economy and economics, one cannot be silent about such a factor as the subsequent help from the Allies. First of all, certainly, from the American side, because in that respect the English helped us minimally. In an analysis of all facets of the war, one must not leave this out of one's reckoning. We would have been in a serious condition without American gunpowder, and could not have turned out the quantity of ammunition which we needed. Without American `Studebekkers' [sic], we could have dragged our artillery nowhere. Yes, in general, to a considerable degree they provided ourfront transport. The output of special steel, necessary for the most diverse necessities of war, were also connected to a series of American deliveries." What business to they have in that region? America is business, in any region. This is the fundamental thing that Russia has always managed to screw up....why? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 bush_cheney2004, Thank you for an intelligent post. Americans have done and helped a lot in WW2, and that's appreciated by most nations. In Georgia's case, however, it seems that they have provided "gunpowder, munitions and Studebekers" to a state that used them to murder civilians. I'd like to share a little story I read on multiple Russian websites and leave it to you and other to dissmiss or to draw conclusions from: Many Russian sources are saying that Serbia, Georgia, Ukraine and Belarus are (were) all part of the same US project. The "Peaceful Revolution" of Serbia (2000), the "Rose Revolution" of Georgia (2004), the "Orange Revolution" of Ukraine (2004-2005) and Belarus failed "Revolution" of 2006 (father Lukashenka did not allow). Saakashvili lived in US and gives his disinformational interviews in English; Yuschenko's wife is a US citizen, he is friends with Saakashvili, claims he's ugly because Russian FSB tried to poson him (FSB does not "try", it gets things done). I am sure that if a pro-western president would have been elected in Russia, US would have convinced him to split the country (easier to rule that way). So you can see that the Russia's feeling of alienation, isolation and betrayal is justified. There probably are no 2 other nations that are as close as Russians and Ukarinians. However, thanks to US dollars the Russian-hating spirit originating in Poland and spreading through the West of Ukraine, we now almost have them going to war one with the other. What a goddam shame... And a clear example of Divide and Conquer by US. Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) ....I am sure that if a pro-western president would have been elected in Russia, US would have convinced him to split the country (easier to rule that way).So you can see that the Russia's feeling of alienation, isolation and betrayal is justified. So what? Shall they play poor alienated Russian victims for eternity? Do you think Russia is the first to experience this? To be blunt, why can't Russia get its shit together? Big country, little man (Putin). There probably are no 2 other nations that are as close as Russians and Ukarinians. However, thanks to US dollars the Russian-hating spirit originating in Poland and spreading through the West of Ukraine, we now almost have them going to war one with the other.What a goddam shame... Yea, that is really effed up.....the US has 12 million illegal aliens from all over the world, including Mexico and Canada. They don't want to go to war with America, they just want a piece of the action and an iPod. Poland really hates Russia...for a very good reason. Russia earned payback from Poland a long time ago. Poland loves cowboys, not comrades. And a clear example of Divide and Conquer by US. OK..I will accept that at face value. But conquer what.....a broke dick Russia with aspirations of former superpower greatness. Hell man, it looks like the Chinese will beat Russia to the Moon too. I will call Mr. Putin and ask him what the problem is....maybe send him free Brittney Spears CD. The US has organized crime...just like Russia. The US has poverty and murders...just like Russia. The US has crooked politicians...just like Russia. The US has ethnic, racial, and religious conflict, just like Russia. The US even has Russians! ...but nobody confuses Russia and the United States. Edited August 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Ahh....the good old days according to Lennon and McCartney: Flew in from Miami Beach BOAC Didn't get to bed last night Oh, the way the paper bag was on my knee Man, I had a dreadful flight I'm back in the USSR You don't know how lucky you are, boy Back in the USSR, yeah Been away so long I hardly knew the place Gee, it's good to be back home Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case Honey disconnect the phone I'm back in the USSR You don't know how lucky you are, boy Back in the US Back in the US Back in the USSR Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out They leave the west behind And Moscow girls make me sing and shout They Georgia's always on my my my my my my my my my mind Oh, come on Hu Hey Hu, hey, ah, yeah yeah, yeah, yeah I'm back in the USSR You don't know how lucky you are, boys Back in the USSR Well the Ukraine girls really knock me out They leave the west behind And Moscow girls make me sing and shout They Georgia's always on my my my my my my my my my mind Oh, show me round your snow peaked mountain way down south Take me to you daddy's farm Let me hear you balalaika's ringing out Come and keep your comrade warm I'm back in the USSR Hey, You don't know how lucky you are, boy Back in the USSR Oh, let me tell you honey Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 So what? Shall they play poor alienated Russian victims for eternity? Do you think Russia is the first to experience this? To be blunt, why can't Russia get its shit together? Big country, little man (Putin). Actually, they are not playing victims... Georgia is... US is playing rightfull anger... This may happen again soon, with Ukraine... Poland loves cowboys, not comrades. Poland loves to b*tch about Russia... I have read some of their writers - Kafka, Lem - very smart people. Beautiful women, too... They consider themselves superior to Russians and definitely more intelligent than Americans. Russians don't hate Polish - they have no reason to... OK..I will accept that at face value. But conquer what..... The world, Pinky, the world... Hell man, it looks like the Chinese will beat Russia to the Moon too. I am very proud for China! Honestly, I would have given them half of Siberia just out of sheer good will I am sure they will be on the Moon very soon - and for a good reason! China needs raw materials to supply the world with consumer goods. Those could be found on the Moon. Besides, building there should be cheaper as the force of the gravity is 3 times lesser... Kudos to China! They are the only Socialists who have done it right. Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 Yeah! Nice song... Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 (edited) Poland loves to b*tch about Russia... I have read some of their writers - Kafka, Lem - very smart people. Beautiful women, too... Poland has the right to hate Russia forever..... They consider themselves superior to Russians and definitely more intelligent than Americans. So do the Canadians...we don't mind as long as we can be on top. Russians don't hate Polish - they have no reason to... Right....Russians hate themselves. Kudos to China! They are the only Socialists who have done it right. Yes, with a little help in Marketing 101....Russia never figured it out....a pity. Where can I buy a used Trabant (East Germany) or maybe a Lada (Russia)? When I was a boy with very little money, I wanted a cheap photo enlarger for the school camera club. A Russian made Zenit model was available by import, from of all places, Canada. So I paid my money and hoped for the best...but it was a piece of pot metal junk. Damn commies! Edited August 16, 2008 by bush_cheney2004 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 When I was a boy with very little money, I wanted a cheap photo enlarger for the school camera club. A Russian made Zenit model was available by import, from of all places, Canada. So I paid my money and hoped for the best...but it was a piece of pot metal junk. Damn commies! I have a Zenit that's older than myself - gift from my father. It should work but I haven't tried to use it in the last 20 years... But usually Russian-made sh*t works, even half a century after it was made. Most Chinese sh*t is now OK, but it used to break on second use... Quote You are what you do.
Argus Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 We have clearly witnessed the beginning of Cold War II between US and Russia.US is trying to get more and more former Socialist countries into NATO, isolating Russia militarily and neutralizing Russia's nuclear potential. But has NATO not outlived its purpose? It was the West's answer to Warsaw Pact, wich is now defunct and forgotten. It appears that today NATO is an instrument of USA's imperialistic ambitions in the world. At this point the members of NATO should stop and ponder: do they want to be dragged into the wars and confrontations that US is creating in all parts of the world? "Russia must be punished", they say. It is easy and convenient for US, being on another continent and having no important economic relations with Russia. For European countries it is quite the opposite. They have good economic relations with Russia and many of them rely on Russian gas and oil. It would make a lot more sense for Europe to have a Pan-European military alliance that would not include USA. You've admitted in another thread that you are a Russian. Nato is there because Russian is a violent, heavily armed nation with no law, led by a vicious, power hungry murdering tyrant which threatens all its neighbours. That was the case when Nato was created. That is still the case. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 You've admitted in another thread that you are a Russian.Nato is there because Russian is a violent, heavily armed nation with no law, led by a vicious, power hungry murdering tyrant which threatens all its neighbours. That was the case when Nato was created. That is still the case. Of course. And US is the force of Good and Freedom and Democracy.... oh boy... tell Serbia and Iraq about murdering tyrants... Quote You are what you do.
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 If Russia would play by the same dirty rules (and I'm sure they could if they had more money) as US then they would: Create an alliance with Cuba, Iran, North Corea, Venezuela and any other US-hating countries and build military bases there; Threaten any country that is against their world policy with cutting them off oil supply; Sponsor "peaceful revolutions" in countries that are US allies; Seek splitting the US into separate states that hate each other Nice picture, huh? Quote You are what you do.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 Of course.And US is the force of Good and Freedom and Democracy.... oh boy... tell Serbia and Iraq about murdering tyrants... Still, you choose to be in the West....it speaks volumes. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
bush_cheney2004 Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 If Russia would play by the same dirty rules (and I'm sure they could if they had more money) as US then they would:Create an alliance with Cuba, Iran, North Corea, Venezuela and any other US-hating countries and build military bases there; Threaten any country that is against their world policy with cutting them off oil supply; Sponsor "peaceful revolutions" in countries that are US allies; Seek splitting the US into separate states that hate each other Nice picture, huh? But they don't have more money....more political stability....more markets....more investment....not even more people. It is a dysfunctional shell of the former Soviet Union, which at least managed to go from peasants to space probes. Why is it so incompetent at these things? WHAT IS RUSSIA's PROBLEM?????? Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
M.Dancer Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 So you agree then that the missle shield in Europe is not meant to protect US from Iran Absolutely. It's not meant to protect the US at all. The missile schield in Europe is meant to protect Europe and I can see why rapicious and envyous Russia would not like that. Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 16, 2008 Author Report Posted August 16, 2008 Absolutely. It's not meant to protect the US at all. The missile schield in Europe is meant to protect Europe and I can see why rapicious and envyous Russia would not like that. If Western Europe indeed has friendly intentions in its relations with Russia the missle shield should not be BETWEEN them. It should be on whatever side of their combined territories there's danger. Quote You are what you do.
M.Dancer Posted August 16, 2008 Report Posted August 16, 2008 If Western Europe indeed has friendly intentions in its relations with Russia the missle shield should not be BETWEEN them.It should be on whatever side of their combined territories there's danger. I have frindly intentions towards all the thieves in my city, doesn't mean I don't lock my door. Funny you should think the shield is soley poised to receive a blow from Russia. Aside from being invaded, raped and murdered by Russians in the recent past, why would you think they are worried about pacific russia? Quote RIGHT of SOME, LEFT of OTHERS If it is a choice between them and us, I choose us
PoliticalCitizen Posted August 17, 2008 Author Report Posted August 17, 2008 I have frindly intentions towards all the thieves in my city, doesn't mean I don't lock my door.Funny you should think the shield is soley poised to receive a blow from Russia. Aside from being invaded, raped and murdered by Russians in the recent past, why would you think they are worried about pacific russia? Oh boy... See, there's a problem with North Americans understanding what it is to be at war as they have not fought a real enemy on their land... Russia prevented Genghis Khan from rolling over Europe. Russia defeated the Ottoman Empire in Europe. USSR defeated the Faschist Germany in Europe. And, believe it or not, fought Japanese in Mongolia and China. So... Hmmmm... Again, I'm at a loss... It is understandable that the knowledge of Eurasian history is lesser on this side of Atlantic (and Pacific). But why the hate? Quote You are what you do.
DogOnPorch Posted August 17, 2008 Report Posted August 17, 2008 PC: But why the hate? Gulags come to mind. Not so long ago...and the more I look at Russia, the more it remains the same. M.Dancer: It is a dysfunctional shell of the former Soviet Union, which at least managed to go from peasants to space probes. That Russia hasn't developed a new booster (manned or unmanned capable) or capsule since the Proton and Soyuz is a sign of stagnation in this area. The Energia...not sure what happened with that heavy lift system after the failed Buran. Meanwhile, the reliable yet very old R7 remains the standard booster...it practically has fins like a '58 Pontiac. ------------------------------ It would have been difficult to design a path out of Communism worse than the one that has been followed. ---Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.