Is slavery a good idea?

CANADIEN · July 30, 2008

While slavery itself has shown itself over and over again as a inefficient economic model I can't help think that inmates of our federal prisons sitting idle is just a monumental waste.
Now I would not want convicts toiling away so that in the end their labours compete against privately owned businesses....but it strikes me that on one hand we have little over 32,000 individuals who have a debt to society.....and on the other hand an arctic that needs sovereignty assertion....what better way to assert our claim than to establish colonies and at the same time motivate prisoners to learn no trades and to avail themselves at the chance to be leaders of their communities (of fellow penal colonists). What true Canadian murderer wouldn't jump at an opportunity to spend trhe remainer of his days not behind bars but instead on Resolute Island ( or where ever) engaged in labour that in the end works towrds his survival?

There may be losses as the lazy and the week might succumb to exposure or malnutrition but in the end, as Australia has shown, a harsh environment will winnow the population and in a few generation the crucible of the arctic we give us a population, descendents of convicts unafraid of hard work and perhaps with a cute marketable accent to boot.

Some form of hard work for convicts is a bit different from slavery, and not a bad idea.

As for exile in the Arctic... Deporting criminals from England to Australia, or European Russia to Siberia, worked because there was virtually no chance of them ever coming back unless a pardon was granted. Even if they escaped Sydney to the outback, they never stole a penny in the streets of London again. In 2008, they escape even from an Arctic jail and if they are resourcesful enough to escape capture (and have some friends to help, mind you), they can be in Toronto or on their way to Brazil in a matter of days.

sorry, but the planet has shrunk too much... On the other hand, there is always the Moon

Edited July 30, 2008 by CANADIEN

M.Dancer · July 30, 2008

Some form of hard work for convicts is a bit different from slavery, and not a bad idea.
As for exile in the Arctic... Deporting criminals from England to Australia, or European Russia to Siberia, worked because there was virtually no chance of them ever coming back unless a pardon was granted. Even if they escaped Sydney to the outback, they never stole a penny in the streets of London again. In 2008, they escape even from an Arctic jail and if they are resourcesful enough to escape capture (and have some friends to help, mind you), they can be in Toronto or on their way to Brazil in a matter of days.

sorry, but the planet has shrunk too much... On the other hand, there is always the Moon

Somehow on the rim of the arctic circle I thinkthe chance of someone escaping scot free is as remote as the location. Planes that visit are few, ships too. Walking out you risk being eaten by bears, or freezing to death. Don't forget, Canada is stil one of those lands where the weather can kill.

obsidian · July 30, 2008

No. We should learn from the past, if you cannot empathize with other humans you deserve the same plight. You are most likely a sociopath for trying to warp reality into the constraints that slavery is good.

What exactly would the slavery eliminating? Yardwork? Farmwork?

You know they invented machinery for all of that a long time ago now. We would need hundreds of thousands if not more for a manual harvests b/c all of our fields are massive and scaled for mechanized farming.

Why would you want to go backwards??? What does slavery accomplish that mechanization can't?

guyser · July 30, 2008

Somehow on the rim of the arctic circle I thinkthe chance of someone escaping scot free is as remote as the location.

I say if they can escape from there we not bother looking for them. It earns them the right to be free.

(but no help)

M.Dancer · July 30, 2008

De Camptown ladies sing dis song, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

De Camptown race-track five miles long, Oh, de doo-dah day!

I come down dah wid my hat caved in, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

I go back home wid a pocket full of tin, Oh, de doo-dah day!

Gwine to run all night!

Gwine to run all day!

I'll bet my money on de bob-tail nag,

Somebody bet on de bay.

De long tail filly and de big black hoss, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

Dey fly de track and dey both cut across, Oh, de doo-dah-day!

De blind hoss sticken in a big mud hole, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

Can't touch bottom wid a ten foot pole, Oh, de doo-dah-day!

Chorus

Old muley cow come on to de track, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

De bob-tail fling her ober his back, Oh, de doo-dah-day!

Den fly along like a rail-road car, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

Runnin' a race wid a shootin' star, Oh, de doo-dah-day!

Chorus

See dem flyin' on a ten mile heat, Doo-dah doo-dah!

Round de race track, den repeat, Oh, dedoo-dah-day!

I win my money on de bob-tail nag, Doo-dah! doo-dah!

I keep my money in an old tow-bag, Oh, dedoo-dah-day!

CANADIEN · July 31, 2008

Somehow on the rim of the arctic circle I thinkthe chance of someone escaping scot free is as remote as the location. Planes that visit are few, ships too. Walking out you risk being eaten by bears, or freezing to death. Don't forget, Canada is stil one of those lands where the weather can kill.

Good points. But in 2008, the gang boss you exile to Ellsmere Island can find a way to arrange for help before he escapes back to the hood. In the 1800's, when you exiled the boss of a gang of thieves to Australia, those of his chums that were still free were at the very best 15-months away. "Borrowing" a plane to go get your "brother" who is about to escape from an artic work camp is not simple, but it is a piece of cake compared to commandeering a vessel of His Majesty's for a three years journey.

The world is shrinking. And this is why one will never succeed in building a whole new Arctic society on the foundation of penal colonies. It worked in Australia for two reasons - isolation and environment. A man freed after 20 years had the choice between an 18-months or so return to the same bleak existence he had before, or staying in a fertile land, with a climate suitable for Europeans in many areas, where he could money his skills and get a better life than in London or Liverpool. The vast majority decided the best choice for them was to stay.

In Ellesmere in 2008, a men freed from prison after 20 years has the choice between living in the same frigid environment for the rest of his life or be in Vancouver by the end of the following week, I believe most people faced with that choice would leave, quick, or at least wouldn't want to retire there.

M.Dancer · July 31, 2008

Good points. But in 2008, the gang boss you exile to Ellsmere Island can find a way to arrange for help before he escapes back to the hood. In the 1800's, when you exiled the boss of a gang of thieves to Australia, those of his chums that were still free were at the very best 15-months away. "Borrowing" a plane to go get your "brother" who is about to escape from an artic work camp is not simple, but it is a piece of cake compared to commandeering a vessel of His Majesty's for a three years journey.
The world is shrinking. And this is why one will never succeed in building a whole new Arctic society on the foundation of penal colonies. It worked in Australia for two reasons - isolation and environment. A man freed after 20 years had the choice between an 18-months or so return to the same bleak existence he had before, or staying in a fertile land, with a climate suitable for Europeans in many areas, where he could money his skills and get a better life than in London or Liverpool. The vast majority decided the best choice for them was to stay.

In Ellesmere in 2008, a men freed from prison after 20 years has the choice between living in the same frigid environment for the rest of his life or be in Vancouver by the end of the following week, I believe most people faced with that choice would leave, quick, or at least wouldn't want to retire there.

Son you think someone is going to be able to charter a plane fitted for arctic conditions, fly in unobserved for 5 plus hours underneath the DEW line and NORAD, land on a gov't controlled runway and the fly out without notice on another 5 hour flight?

Okay...get you pen sharpened...I see a Wesley Snipes MegaBlockbuster Screenplay, White Snow-Black Sky (working title)

CANADIEN · July 31, 2008

Son you think someone is going to be able to charter a plane fitted for arctic conditions, fly in unobserved for 5 plus hours underneath the DEW line and NORAD, land on a gov't controlled runway and the fly out without notice on another 5 hour flight?
Okay...get you pen sharpened...I see a Wesley Snipes MegaBlockbuster Screenplay, White Snow-Black Sky (working title)

Not exactly what I had in mind (starting with the chartering part, or landing on an airstrip), but not nearly as difficult as commandering a vessel of the line was a 3 year prison-break expedition more than half-way around the globe.

AngusThermopyle · July 31, 2008

Good points. But in 2008, the gang boss you exile to Ellsmere Island can find a way to arrange for help before he escapes back to the hood. In the 1800's, when you exiled the boss of a gang of thieves to Australia, those of his chums that were still free were at the very best 15-months away. "Borrowing" a plane to go get your "brother" who is about to escape from an artic work camp is not simple, but it is a piece of cake compared to commandeering a vessel of His Majesty's for a three years journey.

Wow! Do you actually believe this!

Obviously you have never been up north. Someone escaping in that location would last a day at most, don't worry about Bears, the environment would do the job very quickly. Not to mention the fact that they'd end up going in circles as there are no roads or landmarks to guide one, no rivers either. When the wind blows and the temps hit -40 to -60 even the hardiest of gangbangers would wilt like a hothouse flower. No amount of bling or homies who cant shoot straight would change that fact.

CANADIEN · July 31, 2008

Wow! Do you actually believe this!
Obviously you have never been up north. Someone escaping in that location would last a day at most, don't worry about Bears, the environment would do the job very quickly. Not to mention the fact that they'd end up going in circles as there are no roads or landmarks to guide one, no rivers either. When the wind blows and the temps hit -40 to -60 even the hardiest of gangbangers would wilt like a hothouse flower. No amount of bling or homies who cant shoot straight would change that fact.

I am not talking about someone just jumping the wall, but someone organizing an escape with accomplices. And I fully aware that there would be high odds against that resulting in the guy ending up in Winnipeg... better than the 0% chance that someone escaping a prison camp in 1810 Australian would have had of ever see London again.

Edited August 1, 2008 by CANADIEN

CANADIEN · July 31, 2008

The main issue is not how and if a convict would escape from a jail on Ellesmere Island, but the fact there are victually no place left today that are nearly as isolated as Australia was (from an European standppoint) 200 years ago.

Edited August 1, 2008 by CANADIEN

CANADIEN · August 1, 2008

The possibility of a penal colony turning in the long run into a society, or a country, existed in the 19th century. You want that today, go to the Moon.

Edited August 1, 2008 by CANADIEN

AngusThermopyle · August 2, 2008

I am not talking about someone just jumping the wall, but someone organizing an escape with accomplices.

Even if they could organize it with acomplices the chances of success would be very slim. During my time in the service I did a six month stint up at Alert. Believe me you simply can not imagine the conditions when you go that far north. It would be interesting to see how it would work out actually. I think I'd be willing to bet a years pay that none of them would survive.

Travel in those areas is extremely dangerous, even for military personell who have been trained for the conditions and are equiped with the gear needed. Its the sort of place where even one miscalculation or mistake means you are dead, no second chances.

We don't see too many escapes from prisons in milder climates so the chances of success in such a harsh and unforgiving area are slim to none at all. You really do have to experience it to truly understand just how much like the inner circle of hell it really is.

CANADIEN · August 2, 2008

Even if they could organize it with acomplices the chances of success would be very slim. During my time in the service I did a six month stint up at Alert. Believe me you simply can not imagine the conditions when you go that far north. It would be interesting to see how it would work out actually. I think I'd be willing to bet a years pay that none of them would survive.
Travel in those areas is extremely dangerous, even for military personell who have been trained for the conditions and are equiped with the gear needed. Its the sort of place where even one miscalculation or mistake means you are dead, no second chances.

We don't see too many escapes from prisons in milder climates so the chances of success in such a harsh and unforgiving area are slim to none at all. You really do have to experience it to truly understand just how much like the inner circle of hell it really is.

I have no doubt about that one second. Does n't change the fact that the world has shrunk, Tha'ts my main point. the rest is a side issue.

William Ashley · December 20, 2010

There already area a lot of wage slaves and impoverished peoples

Programs like Ontario Works (welfare in ontario) provide only a fraction of what it takes to live at the poverty line - for mandatory work orders and compliance (for instnace a requirement to cut your hair, allow inspections and financial oversight amongst other things)

--- The catch on my own opinion however is that - government make work programs arn't a problem, but they have to be programs that give return on investment and provide atleast minimum wage for work rendered.

The problem is that it is a corporatist society - and corporatists control the means of labour - and the government isn't willing to muzzle in on corporations and private business persons businessess. That is just contrary.

I think however there is room for the government to do this, but here is the bottom line.

People only need so much, and people are only willing to pay for so much luxury.

People save money, so the only way to insure good work programs is through infaltionary printing - or inflation of the money supply. The other option is creating a "Secondary economy" or command economy within a mixed economy to pay the socialized workforce with their own product.

It isn't that it can't work, it is that the government doesn't represent socialist pro commune forces, so it isn't "realistic" to expect it to occur - even if it actually saved the government money.

I support "restitution" programs and "work for freedom" - or emancipation based justice reform also.

While technically it is a form of bonding, so is community service.

I think prisoners should have the right to not only earn their freedom by actually repaying society by providing services and paying back their victims from their labours, but also in having an oppourtunity to save for their reintegration with society.

Actually going somewhere and enslaving someone by conquest just cause you can however seems a little over the top.

Proactive programs enttered by voluntary indebiture however is not immoral it is a solution.

Bonam · December 21, 2010

Way to necro the slave thread William...

Argus · December 21, 2010

Way to necro the slave thread William...

Yes, but as one of MY threads it deserves to be reborn and live forever!

Maybe it should be jazzed up with more sex and glitz. It should be about sex slaves instead of just slaves. People want to talk about sex slaves. Everyone should have one! And no-doubt will once the robotics industry gets itself sorted out.

Bonam · December 21, 2010

Maybe it should be jazzed up with more sex and glitz. It should be about sex slaves instead of just slaves. People want to talk about sex slaves. Everyone should have one! And no-doubt will once the robotics industry gets itself sorted out.

I agree. Why only one though? Where are my sex slaves? I want a harem full.

Argus · December 21, 2010

I agree. Why only one though? Where are my sex slaves? I want a harem full.

The bodies are complete. It's the mechanicals that still need to be developed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ilVKM-zC0

guyser · December 21, 2010

The bodies are complete. It's the mechanicals that still need to be developed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ilVKM-zC0

Is there one that comes with a nagging f'in whine that starts the moment you wake up till you're in bed at night?

A headache model ?

How about one that zooms to 110 F in the middle of the night ? (oh wait I already have one)

Argus · December 22, 2010

Is there one that comes with a nagging f'in whine that starts the moment you wake up till you're in bed at night?

A headache model ?

How about one that zooms to 110 F in the middle of the night ? (oh wait I already have one)

I think these are built to avoid that sort of behaviour.

I saw a documentary once about guys who live with these dolls. It was the weirdest thing you ever saw.

Mind you, once the dolls can walk and talk all bets are off. And when they learn to vacuum and iron - hoo boy! Women better learn to behave!

Peter F · December 22, 2010

And when they learn to vacuum and iron - hoo boy! Women better learn to behave!

Yah cause they would no longer have any vacuuming and ironing to do - hoo boy!

Oleg Bach · December 22, 2010

Sounds like something you could integrate into things like the penal system and enforcing work expectations for welfare recipients.

We are all slaves and supposedly in service of each other...There is nothing wrong with slavery...unless the master..suddenly thinks he is more important than his lowly servant...Once the master is corrupted by the silly sense of self importance - then as they say "the lowest and most righerous slave rules the household" _ NO one is free in our material system..we are all obligated by duty...slavery does not mean to oppress..It means to work together. Asking a kid once who was going to have the Russian mob finance a project...I asked "won't these people hurt you?" He said they have one rule "everyone gets paid" - it is when one is robbed that slavery becomes a problem...My dad used to say "there are others" - which meant that ALL must survive...slavery or service was never meant to be a cannibalistist system - it was simply a system..and could be a good one..with mutual respect in play.

Bonam · December 22, 2010

The bodies are complete. It's the mechanicals that still need to be developed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_ilVKM-zC0

The mechanical capability has a straightforward path to being worked out though. In fact, at sufficient cost, it could be produced today. The real barrier for now is the required AI. Although I guess that could be bypassed by having certain pre-programmed functionality. If all you wanted was a sex robot that numbly complied with whatever that would be sufficient. But the AI to make a companion robot which you could interact with physically and verbally and that could respond/react sensibly and interestingly to a wide range of actions/statements/requests/inquiries and perform a variety of disparate tasks is not there yet.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Bonam

guyser · December 22, 2010

If all you wanted was a sex robot that numbly complied with whatever that would be sufficient.

Get married then.

But the AI to make a companion robot which you could interact with physically and verbally and that could respond/react sensibly and interestingly to a wide range of actions/statements/requests/inquiries and perform a variety of disparate tasks is not there yet.

Are you talking about women or robots?

Off to duck down in the corner for fear of retribution