The Apology Pt II

[g_bambino]

While there is lots of press on the RCMP doing seizures, it is all smoke and mirrors because there have been few convictions. At Akwesanse (I just left meetings there this morning) the RCMP think it is illegal to move cartons of cigarettes from St Regis (the US side of the Akwesasne Reserve) to the Quebec side or the Ontario side. But since there are no borders through Akwesasne neither the US or Canada have been successful in getting convictions. The Jay Treaty and the Mohawks position on Cornwall Island puts them on their own sovereign territory outside of Canada or the US.

Er, the border most certainly does run through reserves; this fact is actually supported by the Jay Treaty:

It is agreed that it shall at all Times be free to His Majesty's Subjects, and to the Citizens of the United States, and also to the Indians dwelling on either side of the said Boundary Line freely to pass and repass by Land, or Inland Navigation, into the respective Territories and Countries of the Two Parties on the Continent of America (the Country within the Limits of the Hudson's Bay Company only excepted) and to navigate all the Lakes, Rivers, and waters thereof, and freely to carry on trade and commerce with each other.

So, strike one.

Per the unbridled cartage of goods across that border, the treaty goes on to say:

nor shall the Indians passing or repassing with their own proper Goods and Effects of whatever nature, pay for the same any Impost or Duty whatever. But Goods in Bales, or other large Packages unusual among Indians shall not be considered as Goods belonging bona fide to Indians. No higher or other Tolls or Rates of Ferriage than what are, or shall be payable by Natives, shall be demanded on either side; And no Duties shall be payable on any Goods which shall merely be carried over any of the Portages, or carrying Places on either side, for the purpose of being immediately reimbarked, and carried to some other Place or Places. But as by this Stipulation it is only meant to secure to each Party a free passage across the Portages on both sides, it is agreed, that this Exemption from Duty shall extend only to such Goods as are carried in the usual and direct Road across the Portage, and are not attempted to be in any manner sold or exchanged during their passage across the same, and proper. Regulations may be established to prevent the possibility of any Frauds in this respect.

The Indians are obviously subject to the Crown's rules on the Canadian side, and the government's rules on the US side, and thus they're not in some magical, untouchable Indian-land. Strike two.

With only one strike to go, I have to say Dancer seems right to cast suspicions on your credibility. Your vitriolic ad-hominems that appear to only be attempts at distraction also don't help your case.

Edited June 19, 2008 by g_bambino

[eyeball]

To any natives who may be following this, I'd like to apologize for the way my whitish brothers like to complicate issues beyond belief. As one wag put it, "they muddy the waters to make them look deep".

nor shall the Indians passing or repassing with their own proper Goods and Effects of whatever nature, pay for the same any Impost or Duty whatever. But Goods in Bales, or other large Packages unusual among Indians shall not be considered as Goods belonging bona fide to Indians. No higher or other Tolls or Rates of Ferriage than what are, or shall be payable by Natives, shall be demanded on either side; And no Duties shall be payable on any Goods which shall merely be carried over any of the Portages, or carrying Places on either side, for the purpose of being immediately reimbarked, and carried to some other Place or Places. But as by this Stipulation it is only meant to secure to each Party a free passage across the Portages on both sides, it is agreed, that this Exemption from Duty shall extend only to such Goods as are carried in the usual and direct Road across the Portage, and are not attempted to be in any manner sold or exchanged during their passage across the same, and proper. Regulations may be established to prevent the possibility of any Frauds in this respect.

What a bunch of crappola. Its very refreshing to see whole communities thumbing their noses at this. More power to them. There have been other instances in the world where revolutions have coalesed around the aspirations of indigenous movements. Self-government is definitely something I'm very interested in exploring. I just love a slippery slope.

[AngusThermopyle]

Apologise for yourself eyeball, don't be so presumptuous as to apologize for me. As regards the laws of the land, I offer no apologies. Just because you are the exception who feels some should be exempt from the law does not mean that all share your warped viewpoint.

As for revolution, well have you ever been present during one? No doubt you haven't, otherwise you would not so glibly cheer the concept on as you would understand the huge loss of life that accompanies revolutions. Somehow I doubt you would be at the forefront of the throng fighting to overthrow what you percieve to be injustice. As such your former statements are nothing more than the idle prattle of a juvenile and undeveloped mind.

Although I believe the apology and compensation are good things this does not mean that I believe Natives should be allowed to dismiss and disregard the law whenever it suits them. What is interesting is the fact that many times in the past you have used the law as justification for your arguments yet in this case you are saying the law should be ignored. Are you always so confused?

Yes, Dancer is correct, CR has no credibility as they constantly contradict themselves all the while fabricating facts. As I said in another thread, they are not worth noting since everything they post is just so much BS.

[charter.rights]

Er, the border most certainly does run through reserves; this fact is actually supported by the Jay Treaty: So, strike one.

Per the unbridled cartage of goods across that border, the treaty goes on to say: The Indians are obviously subject to the Crown's rules on the Canadian side, and the government's rules on the US side, and thus they're not in some magical, untouchable Indian-land. Strike two.

With only one strike to go, I have to say Dancer seems right to cast suspicions on your credibility. Your vitriolic ad-hominems that appear to only be attempts at distraction also don't help your case.

No. The border does not run through any Mohawk reserves. It runs around them. In fact the Mohawks have a continuous assertion of sovereignty since before the British stepped foot in N.A. up to today at the Caledonia and Tyendinaga negotiation tables. Neither the Jay Treaty of the British can define what is Mohawk territory. The Jay Treaty is an agreement between the US and the British that the Indians passing into either country could not be molested It is our law that tells us what we can and cannot do. It doesn't apply to natives.

Certainly some have tried to exercise Canadian authority over the Mohawks and that has been met with the likes of Oka, and other exercises where the government eventually backed down. At least now the Charter tells us that we cannot interfere with aboriginal right and when that is fully recognized by the courts (that we have to butt out of their business) there will be no more harassment. That is all that is happening now since the RCMP, CRA, OPP and others won't take the Mohawks to court over Charter issues. If we lose our challenge of their charter rights then you can bet that all natives across Canada will be looking for the same. So the RCMP and CRA don't follow through on charges, because their harassment is all that they are after...something that was prohibited under the Jay Treaty.

(BTW Canada does not adhere to the Jay Treaty anyway.)

M.Dancer is only a troll with a penchant for picking on natives. He isn't interested in discussion, or the issues. He is merely trying to get one up to boost up his inferiority complex. Unfortunately, native people have more going for them than he does. It isn't vitriol or ad hominems. It is giving a troll what he desires most. An excuse to act like an asshole.

[g_bambino]

No. The border does not run through any Mohawk reserves. It runs around them. In fact the Mohawks have a continuous assertion of sovereignty since before the British stepped foot in N.A.

Regardless of what the Mohawks did before anyone set foot anywhere, the border must now run through reserves. The Royal Proclamation of 1763 clearly asserts that the lands set aside for natives are under the sovereignty of the Crown:

And We do further declare it to be Our Royal Will and Pleasure, for the present as aforesaid, to reserve under our Sovereignty, Protection, and Dominion, for the use of the said Indians, all the Lands and Territories not included within the Limits of Our said Three new Governments, or within the Limits of the Territory granted to the Hudson's Bay Company, as also all the Lands and Territories lying to the Westward of the Sources of the Rivers which fall into the Sea from the West and North West as aforesaid.

As the Queen's sovereignty, and the application of the Royal Proclamation, today ends at the Canada/US border, if that border runs through any of the lands set aside by the Crown for "the use of the said Indians," a.k.a. the reserves, then there is a side of that reserve under the Crown's sovereignty and a side that is not. Unless you'd seriously like to try and convince us that Queen Elizabeth II actually has localised areas where her sovereignty overlaps that of the United States.

Neither the Jay Treaty of the British can define what is Mohawk territory.

No, indeed. The Canadian Crown and the Mohawks together define Mohawk territories; as the Royal Proclamation also states, only the monarch may purchase any of the reserved lands from the Indians.

The Jay Treaty is an agreement between the US and the British that the Indians passing into either country could not be molested It is our law that tells us what we can and cannot do. It doesn't apply to natives.

As it specifically mentions aboriginals, it obviously does apply to them.

At least now the Charter tells us that we cannot interfere with aboriginal right and when that is fully recognized by the courts (that we have to butt out of their business) there will be no more harassment. That is all that is happening now since the RCMP, CRA, OPP and others won't take the Mohawks to court over Charter issues. If we lose our challenge of their charter rights then you can bet that all natives across Canada will be looking for the same.

That's odd; first you said Mohawks lived on their own sovereign lands, where, to actually be sovereign, no other country's laws could apply. Yet, here you're saying now that the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms does apply to aborigionals on their reserves. Which is it?

[M.Dancer]

M.Dancer is only a troll with a penchant for picking on natives. He isn't interested in discussion, or the issues. He is merely trying to get one up to boost up his inferiority complex. Unfortunately, native people have more going for them than he does. It isn't vitriol or ad hominems. It is giving a troll what he desires most. An excuse to act like an asshole.

tsk tsk tsk.....sorry if I am upsetting your wittle tender sensibilities. Not really my fault though. If it weren't bullshit, it wouldn't stink....and really now.....you have given rise to a lot of stink. Soemthing aboyt...making shit up?

[DogOnPorch]

cr: There are no gangs or organized crimes.

That's interesting. Gang free. Who'd a thunk it? All of the 'First Nations' gangs must be west of the Ontario/Manatoba border, then. Yez learn something new everyday.

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If you share your friend's crime, you make it your own.

---Roman Proverb

[M.Dancer]

That's interesting. Gang free. Who'd a thunk it? All of the 'First Nations' gangs must be west of the Ontario/Manatoba border, then. Yez learn something new everyday.

---------------------------------------

If you share your friend's crime, you make it your own.

---Roman Proverb

I had been wondering what ever happened to Baghdad Bob....

[DogOnPorch]

I had been wondering what ever happened to Baghdad Bob....

The Iraqi Information Officer?

-----------------------

Bang, bang, chitty, chitty, bang, bang; our fine four fendered friend.

---Chitty Chitty Bang Bang

[eyeball]

What is interesting is the fact that many times in the past you have used the law as justification for your arguments yet in this case you are saying the law should be ignored. Are you always so confused?

Nope not at all, I was likely speaking to a higher law or principle. There's a real chicken and egg thing going on there, as opposed to water and mud.

[NativeCharm]

I have participated in this forum from time to time, and thoroughly enjoy contributing to cross cultural views and education, however it becomes disgusting to see ‘fellow humans’ with complete disregard of respect for others, no matter the race. It is disheartening that many posters here lack the ability to stay on topic and continue to resort to petty racial remarks and again have attempted to turn this discussion into a ‘why to have a Native thread’.

Most of you cant even follow a thread let alone actually educate your self with real facts. Thoughtfully, you have completely disregarded requests to be respectful to a very sensitive subject (hence the name of the thread?) and continue to find ways in EVERY single Native based thread, as to ‘why to hate a Native”. This is a testament of your true nature and I wouldn’t be surprised if you were direct descendants of the perpetrators of the very people that inhumanely inflicted crimes on our peoples. You have generalized, stereotyped and racial profiled every one of our nations through your ignorant remarks and sorry ass links.

We ALL know who and what you are you… dismal specimens of the so-called ‘majority’ race. Perhaps if you took half the time to learn something as much as you spend spewing stupidity in here, you might actually evolve as a human, but please don’t bet your well being on it.

Good Grief!! Seriously, what was SOO traumatic in your childhood that you lack empathy and the ability to self educate? Has your childhood memories been so severely devastating that you are unable to cope with hardcore facts and are incapable of accepting that the Native nations are humans with rights? A beautiful body of people that are moving forward and gaining independence obviously pisses you off so much that you’d rather make yourself look stupid than give a worthy contribution to cross cultural discussions. I can understand why this would be threatening to you, as this is exactly why your ancestors attempted genocide on our multiple nations.

It has become evident that reality is probably very scary for many of you and I understand that this is why you continue to stumble over your words; and your repetitive racial comments is merely pathetic attempts to pursue your ‘equal’ identity. The real reason you lack intellectual contribution to a decent discussion is because you have led a sheltered existence that is deficient in meaning and cultural heritage. Sadly, many of you weak posters are nothing more than specimens of a society historically plagued with diseases and you continue to prove this with your postings. Your words are infected with ignorance and no matter how pitiful you seem, the Natives wont save your 'supreme' generation this time.

Yes, when the baby boomers start to die off, it will our people cashing your cheques, handling your money, dispensing your pills and pushing your pathetic asses in wheelchairs. We are the countries leading demographic no matter what the death rate is; we are breeding and educating faster than any of the so-called majority. Indeed, we have a very interesting future in this country and I look forward to seeing those with the innate ability and sincere desire to achieve harmonious relationships- nation to nation- in a country that is worthy of being called Canada, a name given in honour, by the Native peoples.

I will state it again. Okay, you dumb dumbs… go get a pen and write this down.

Are you ready?

IF YOU ARE NOT A PART OF THE SOLUTION

YOU ARE APART OF THE PROBLEM!

The reality is, we don’t need an apology to move ahead. We can pay all your/our taxes and yes, we have poor people just like your trailer parks and ghostly mining towns. This entire country is a multifaceted multi cultural farm camp. You see, we can accept the past and the reality of today and tomorrow and MOVE ON, the real problem is, many of you cant. Evolve yourself and graciously accept the fact that genocide didn’t work and no matter how pathetic your attempts are, whether its criminal or vile racial comments, it will not stop the rapid progression of our Native peoples. Go ahead… get mad because we are making money, get upset because we are taking back what is rightfully ours. Get frustrated because we are taking your enforced text book education and using it against those that have harmed us. Don’t blame us. Blame YOUR government, your voters, your religion and YOUR ancestors, for they are the ones responsible.

Please, before even trying to quote my words…spend some time rattling your endangered brain cells and try to actually stick to the topic and find something at least partially intelligent and meaningful to say.

Edited June 20, 2008 by NativeCharm

[M.Dancer]

So this thread is done then?

[NativeCharm]

So this thread is done then?

For you, it is.

[M.Dancer]

For you, it is.

You seem a little confused about your place in the universe. Perhaps a nice cold humility enema will sort you out.

...Then perhaps your whining won't be so annoying.

[NativeCharm]

You seem a little confused about your place in the universe. Perhaps a nice cold humility enema will sort you out.

...Then perhaps your whining won't be so annoying.

LOL! I'm assuming this is your daily morning mirror speech. CUTE! In a feeble, sad, pathetic way. but AWWW, still cute. I hope you didn't hurt yourself in your posting. As amusing as your futile attempts at intelligent posts are, I still feel the need to ignore the ignorant. Good luck in your quest for humanity.

[M.Dancer]

Good luck in your quest for humanity.

And good luck in your quest for a handout.

[AngusThermopyle]

In need of a good laugh I surfed on over to Mohawk Nation News where I read that they reject the apology. Does anyone know if if all Native groups have rejected the Apology? Or is it just those happy go lucky Mohawks who are rejecting it?

Edited June 27, 2008 by AngusThermopyle

[jbg]

In need of a good laugh I surfed on over to Mohawk Nation News where I read that they reject the apology. Does anyone know if if all Native groups have rejected the Apology? Or is it just those happy go lucky Mohawks who are rejecting it?

Boo hoo. I'm sad.

[AngusThermopyle]

Boo hoo. I'm sad.

Well I guess that answers my question.

The reason I ask relates to what I said when the thread first started. that is, if used positively it could be a good thing. however, if used in cynical fashion it merely becomes a tool to further an agenda. It would appear that it is no more than a tool to be utilized, at least by the Mohawks anyway.

So, back to the question. Does anyone know if all groups reject it? Or is it only the Mohawks who do?