U.S. to reopen deportation case

[Leafless]

Again, how cute - but the fact of the matter it's your personal opinion that Arar wasn't tortured isn't backed up by any factual information versus the findings of the Canadian judiciary, Parliament, and security agencies that say he was. These findings are supported by the Canadian public & all Canadian political parties.

You should stop making ludicrous comparisons as a public inquiry is not equivalent to a civil or criminal trial.

What does the Canadian public know outside of what MSM and politicians wants them to know?

If you are content as a socialist fed puppet, then good for you.

[bush_cheney2004]

Again, how cute - but the fact of the matter it's your personal opinion that Arar wasn't tortured isn't backed up by any factual information versus the findings of the Canadian judiciary, Parliament, and security agencies that say he was. These findings are supported by the Canadian public & all Canadian political parties.

Well gee, if this opinion is Canadian fried through and through, why do you think non-Canadians should find it credible? After all, it was the all Canadian RCMP that screwed up and needs political cover.

If I was ever proven this dead wrong on something, I'd probably save face and just be quiet.

Who cares about it ...anymore that I don't believe he was tortured. It's not about you (or me).

Of course I know it was on purpose. That doesn't make it right.

Then it wasn't a mistake.

Are we talking about security certificates? No. Than why are you bringing it up other than to distract from the issue at hand?

Next time a security certificate post pops up, I'll be there criticizing that process as well, otherwise let's stick to Arar, shall we?

Security certificates involve the detention, "torture", and deportation of individuals.....DUH!

[JB Globe]

What does the Canadian public know outside of what MSM and politicians wants them to know?

And what do you know, outside of what two-bit right-wing news sites and a minority of right-wing commentators want you to know, huh?

You can whine all you want about how all the info making the case that Arar was tortured is "all lies" - but you look pretty pathetic if you have nothing to counter that information.

In short, at least there are accepted facts on my side - you on the other hand have nothing.

[JB Globe]

Well gee, if this opinion is Canadian fried through and through, why do you think non-Canadians should find it credible?

Sorry - you're asking me why non-Canadians should believe the findings of a Canadian inquiry versus the opinion of the Bush Administration?

Well, I suppose your screen name is Bush-Cheney for a reason, isn't it?

Then it wasn't a mistake.

Of course it wasn't a mistake - it was deliberate, it was a deliberate violation of Arar's human rights to send him to another country to be tortured.

Who cares about it ...anymore that I don't believe he was tortured. It's not about you (or me).

Of course it's not about you or me. We're not Muslim, and/or we weren't born in a country that practices torture so we'll never be expedited for torture. That's exactly why people such as yourself could care less - because you know it will never happen to you, therefor you're fine with it.

Security certificates involve the detention, "torture", and deportation of individuals.....DUH!

Thanks for telling me that, I've only known this for 7 years or so. Go ahead and put up a post on security certificates, I'll be there criticizing them, until then - let's stay on topic.

Edited June 16, 2008 by JB Globe

[bush_cheney2004]

Sorry - you're asking me why non-Canadians should believe the findings of a Canadian inquiry versus the opinion of the Bush Administration?

Yes..it is a fair question. We believed the RCMP and look what happened to Arar! What makes "Canadian" findings so special compared to anyone elses?

Of course it wasn't a mistake - it was deliberate, it was a deliberate violation of Arar's human rights to send him to another country to be tortured.

I don't believe Mr. Arar was tortured. The deportation was legal and unremarkable.

Of course it's not about you or me. We're not Muslim, and/or we weren't born in a country that practices torture so we'll never be expedited for torture. That's exactly why people such as yourself could care less - because you know it will never happen to you, therefor you're fine with it.

No.....I couldn't care less. It could happen to me, but I still don't care, because of a logical hierarchy that includes a more negative outcome....namely, death.

Thanks for telling me that, I've only known this for 7 years or so. Go ahead and put up a post on security certificates, I'll be there criticizing them, until then - let's stay on topic.

No problem....it is common to run away from Canadian Sec Certs whenever I bring it up.

[JB Globe]

Yes..it is a fair question. We believed the RCMP and look what happened to Arar!

And then the RCMP was investigated and rightfully blamed for their role in the Arar affair. To date, this hasn't happened in the US, although it looks like it's finally going to happen in the near future.

I don't believe Mr. Arar was tortured.

That's your choice. It doesn't mean it's true.

The deportation was legal and unremarkable.

According to protocol (and I believe this protocol is specific to US-Canada and was part of an agreement between us), Arar should have been deported to the country where he is a citizen, where he resided, worked and has family. He should not have been deported to a country he hasn't seen since he was a child.

It could happen to me,

How could you be deported to a country that practices torture?

[bush_cheney2004]

And then the RCMP was investigated and rightfully blamed for their role in the Arar affair. To date, this hasn't happened in the US, although it looks like it's finally going to happen in the near future.

Could be, but it doesn't satisfy the question of 100% veracity for Canada's findings in general...if anything, it undermines such a stance.

That's your choice. It doesn't mean it's true.

I don't really care either way...Arar really can't expect Club Med treatment in a Syrian prison.

According to protocol (and I believe this protocol is specific to US-Canada and was part of an agreement between us), Arar should have been deported to the country where he is a citizen, where he resided, worked and has family. He should not have been deported to a country he hasn't seen since he was a child.

Arar was deported to a country where he is a citizen..and criminal.

How could you be deported to a country that practices torture?

I can be "tortured" in the USA ....no need for deportation. Similarly, Canadians can be "tortured" as well.

[Topaz]

I think the problem was that Arar should have been given a choice to which country he should be sent too but wasn't. The US isn't a friend of Syria and to sent him there and not to Canada proved they wanted him tortured.

[bush_cheney2004]

I think the problem was that Arar should have been given a choice to which country he should be sent too but wasn't. The US isn't a friend of Syria and to sent him there and not to Canada proved they wanted him tortured.

Well, let's break that down a bit. Arar had "dual-citizenship", the beginning of his troubles. American authorities don't really like to deal with poly-citizen crap, but if they have to, may as well take advantage of the INS rules. Once Canada's RCMP fingered him as a perp, and made no outward attempt to repatriate, it was off to Jordan with an all expenses paid vacation back home.

Based on the nature of the deportation, it is safe to say that they sure as hell wanted Arar interrogated. Common sense makes one wonder what the hell Mr. Arar was thinking when he booked a layover in New York, less than one year after 9/11.

[Oleg Bach]

Well, let's break that down a bit. Arar had "dual-citizenship", the beginning of his troubles. American authorities don't really like to deal with poly-citizen crap, but if they have to, may as well take advantage of the INS rules. Once Canada's RCMP fingered him as a perp, and made no outward attempt to repatriate, it was off to Jordan with an all expenses paid vacation back home.

Based on the nature of the deportation, it is safe to say that they sure as hell wanted Arar interrogated. Common sense makes one wonder what the hell Mr. Arar was thinking when he booked a layover in New York, less than one year after 9/11.

Why water board my doinking pea brained high school drop out intellect...some one gets it..that sadism sometimes seeps into the rich board and powerful.....sure the Americans wanted him tortured. When Kissinger said that power is the ultimate aphrodisiac then I knew he got a preverse pang in his genitals when he committed abuse and general evil against the weak of the world....yep - dick chaney gets a boner when he hurts people.

[JB Globe]

Could be, but it doesn't satisfy the question of 100% veracity for Canada's findings in general...if anything, it undermines such a stance.

Look, Canada has taken responsibility for it's wrong actions - the Bush Administration hasn't. Until then, please spare me these pot shots that "the findings aren't 100%" - 90% right is still better than not having an inquiry at all. Fact is all political parties accepted the findings - there were no claims of bias from anyone anywhere in the political spectrum, or the (respected) media which is rare. The only people who seem to have a problem with this are random people on the internet - which tells you something right there.

And hell, if you can show me a justice system that produces verdicts/findings that are "100% right" (whatever that is) go ahead. The important thing is that the vast majority of the information and findings are solid - that there's enough evidence to suggest that Arar was tortured beyond a reasonable doubt.

And your doubt is unreasonable because it resides on a demonstrated bias against Muslims, same with other egotistical folks who can never admit when they're wrong.

There, I acknowledged the elephant in the room.

Arar was deported to a country where he is a citizen..and criminal.

1 - You're admitting the US violated a signed agreement with Canada by sending him to Syria instead of Canada. The fact that he has Syrian citizenship is irrelevant - the agreement overrides that. So we both agree the US did wrong in this matter, yes? Unless of course you believe that the US can arbitrarily decide when to honour international agreements, obligations, or law?

I can be "tortured" in the USA ....no need for deportation. Similarly, Canadians can be "tortured" as well.

Let me guess - since you believe that Arar wasn't tortured, you believe he only experience in Syria was something like living in a crappy prison - you don't believe he suffered any actual legally-defined torture. Therefor, when you claim that you and I can be "tortured" - you mean we too can be held in crappy prisons here.

That's cute - but the fact remains that we both will never face legally defined torture in either of our countries - and that's part of the reason why many people support extraordinary rendition - because they'll never have to experience it.

[bush_cheney2004]

Look, Canada has taken responsibility for it's wrong actions - the Bush Administration hasn't. Until then, please spare me these pot shots that "the findings aren't 100%" - 90% right is still better than not having an inquiry at all. Fact is all political parties accepted the findings - there were no claims of bias from anyone anywhere in the political spectrum, or the (respected) media which is rare. The only people who seem to have a problem with this are random people on the internet - which tells you something right there.

What Canada does is Canada's business..doesn't mean the rest of us have to bend over in a collective guilt fest. Merely questioning Arar's torture claims have become politically incorrect in Canada.

Fortunately, a few brave souls have not imbibed the Flavor-Aid:

...The problem is, Arar’s claims of physical torture have gone largely unchallenged. The Canadian media has been eager to report every dramatic detail and columnists write as if the allegations are established fact. But even though the Arar commission wrote that he had been tortured, it did little to substantiate the 34-year-old wireless technology consultant’s assertions.

The commission, headed by Justice Dennis O’Connor, ran for two-and-a-half years and cost taxpayers $23 million. Yet in all that time and for all that money, no medical evidence was presented that demonstrated Arar had been physically tortured. No doctor testified. A psychiatrist did testify about the psychological effects of torture, but on physical torture, none.

http://kevinsteel.org/2007/02/26/what-real...-to-maher-arar/

And hell, if you can show me a justice system that produces verdicts/findings that are "100% right" (whatever that is) go ahead. The important thing is that the vast majority of the information and findings are solid - that there's enough evidence to suggest that Arar was tortured beyond a reasonable doubt.

There most certainly is not....you know damn right well that were this a criminal indictment and trial, no jury would convict on such a dearth of evidence.

And your doubt is unreasonable because it resides on a demonstrated bias against Muslims, same with other egotistical folks who can never admit when they're wrong.

Nonsense...I grew up with the Fruit of Islam years before most Canadians ever knew what a "Muslim" was. We use to hand out Mohammad Speaks on street corners in Philly for pocket change. Ever heard of Ali? We done "Islam" longer and better than Canada!

You're admitting the US violated a signed agreement with Canada by sending him to Syria instead of Canada. The fact that he has Syrian citizenship is irrelevant - the agreement overrides that. So we both agree the US did wrong in this matter, yes? Unless of course you believe that the US can arbitrarily decide when to honour international agreements, obligations, or law?

You need to brush on US law before drawing such false conclusions. Mr. Arar was deported like thousands of others to nation of birth....no big deal.

Let me guess - since you believe that Arar wasn't tortured, you believe he only experience in Syria was something like living in a crappy prison - you don't believe he suffered any actual legally-defined torture. Therefor, when you claim that you and I can be "tortured" - you mean we too can be held in crappy prisons here.

Hey...you one smart cookie!

That's cute - but the fact remains that we both will never face legally defined torture in either of our countries - and that's part of the reason why many people support extraordinary rendition - because they'll never have to experience it.

That's the funny part....legally defined was never explored....no sworn testimony...no evidence...no Istanbul Protocol....no nothing. All it took was flipping the Canadian guilt gene.

[eyeball]

...you know damn right well that were this a criminal indictment and trial, no jury would convict on such a dearth of evidence.

You're completely satisfied when your government proposes to hold, try and convict people without evidence, but then you're also a flaming hypocrite so...go figure.

[Guest American Woman]

....Canada has taken responsibility for it's wrong actions - the Bush Administration hasn't.

It took years before Canada took responsibility. In January 2004, the federal government announced the establishment of the Arar inquiry. link Yet Harper didn't apologize until January of 2007. link

So now we have an inquiry into our actions in light of Canada's findings and already several of our lawmakers have apologized to Arar. Sounds to me as if we're on the right track; as if we're doing the right thing. Do you disagree?

[bush_cheney2004]

You're completely satisfied when your government proposes to hold, try and convict people without evidence, but then you're also a flaming hypocrite so...go figure.

Are you're just pouting again....learn how to play the game without crying.

[eyeball]

Are you're just pouting again...

No, just pointing out what a hypocrite you are....again.

I applaud the 'Gitmo solution, as it respects the US Constitution!

Link

Edited June 18, 2008 by eyeball

[bush_cheney2004]

No, just pointing out what a hypocrite you are....again.

Nope...you whiffed again...the US Constitution wouldn't have saved Arar either. Claims of torture are not supported by any process....civil....criminal...or constitutional.

Did anybody call the Syrians? LOL!

[eyeball]

Nope...you whiffed again...the US Constitution wouldn't have saved Arar either. Claims of torture are not supported by any process....civil....criminal...or constitutional.

I'm talking about what you say, not your constitution. You defend due process on the one hand while applauding its suspension with the other...you're a hypocrite.

Did anybody call the Syrians? LOL!

Somebody from your government must have. No doubt they wave the constitution around like it was toilet paper too.

[bush_cheney2004]

I'm talking about what you say, not your constitution. You defend due process on the one hand while applauding its suspension with the other...you're a hypocrite.

Nope....I simply stated that using legal conventions and standards, Arar wouldn't have a case. You ran with the bait, hook, line and sinker. If that makes me a hypocrite...so be it....I don't really care....obvioulsy !

Somebody from your government must have. No doubt they wave the constitution around like it was toilet paper too.

No doubt....the Americans are flexible that way.....both the Syrians and Americans have longer experience with constitutions than Canada!