Layton and talks with the enemy

[jbg]

Recently, it has not. Under insane Neo-Cons such as ideological idiots Bush & Cheney, it has suffered greatly (except for CEOs and military leaders, of course).

Millions of more Americans in poverty, extremely high violent crime rates, the highest incarceration rate on earth, and an exponentially growing debt, foreign CIA torture prisons, decreasing civil liberties.... among other things (high infant mortality, plumetting life expectancy, plumetting education standards/performance, growing bankruptcies due to private health care expenditures and predatory lending practices, millions of Americans going hungry, etc.)

But it doesn't matter, because the military is active & aggressive, and CEOs are enjoying record incomes and wealth !

Right-wing wackos are oblivious to and ignorant of such manifestations of Neo-Con insanity.

Oh yes. We have a terrible place to live. The defections from the US to Cuba and North Korea are staggering. Heck, a bunch just fled for their lives to move to Tuktuyutok.

[bush_cheney2004]

Recently, it has not. Under insane Neo-Cons such as ideological idiots Bush & Cheney, it has suffered greatly (except for CEOs and military leaders, of course).

Is it only "Neo-Con" bombs and bullets that touch a nerve? America has prospered regardless of political ideology and policy execution. See "History of the United States of America".

Millions of more Americans in poverty, extremely high violent crime rates, the highest incarceration rate on earth, and an exponentially growing debt, foreign CIA torture prisons, decreasing civil liberties.... among other things (high infant mortality, plumetting life expectancy, plumetting education standards/performance, growing bankruptcies due to private health care expenditures and predatory lending practices, millions of Americans going hungry, etc.)

Yes, there are millions of more Americans....hard to keep a good thing secret. We even get 'em from paradise Canada....and they never go home. Crime rates are actually down according to FBI and DOJ statistics going back to the early 1970's. Life expectancy is not "plumetting"....bankruptcies should be growing in an over leveraged economy. Americans need to go hungry based on obesity rates!

But it doesn't matter, because the military is active & aggressive, and CEOs are enjoying record incomes and wealth !

Works for me...I never got a job from a poor pony-tailed liberal.

Right-wing wackos are oblivious to and ignorant of such manifestations of Neo-Con insanity.

No balls....no blue chips.

[bush_cheney2004]

Does everything in Canada somehow involve an attack on the US and/or Bush?

No, just for those who need the US/Bush as a foil to define themselves. I suspect that a majority of Canadians go about their business each day without any such obsession.

[M.Dancer]

(high infant mortality, ....

South Africa: total: 58.26 deaths/1,000 live births

Vietnam: total: 23.61 deaths/1,000 live births

Venuzuela: total: 22.02 deaths/1,000 live births

China: total: 21.16 deaths/1,000 live births

Russia: total: 10.81 deaths/1,000 live births

USA: total: 6.3 deaths/1,000 live births

Cuba: total: 5.93 deaths/1,000 live births

Greece: total: 5.25 deaths/1,000 live births

Ireland: total: 5.14 deaths/1,000 live births

Canada: total: 5.08 deaths/1,000 live births

Britain: total: 4.93 deaths/1,000 live births

Australia: total: 4.51 deaths/1,000 live births

Austria: total: 4.48 deaths/1,000 live births

Spain: total: 4.26 deaths/1,000 live births

france: total: 3.36 deaths/1,000 live births

Define "High"?

[AngusThermopyle]

Define "High"?

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me pick me!

High can be defined as anything that can be twisted to support an irrational, even fanatical hatred of the U.S.A.

Do I get a gold star now?

[M.Dancer]

Ooh! Ooh! Pick me pick me!

High can be defined as anything that can be twisted to support an irrational, even fanatical hatred of the U.S.A.

Do I get a gold star now?

While it can't be argued that the US doesn't have a higher mortality rate in relation to most western nations....but that is of course relative. Canada's record is also high compared to France, but low compared to Mexico or Hungary.

[AngusThermopyle]

While it can't be argued that the US doesn't have a higher mortality rate in relation to most western nations....but that is of course relative. Canada's record is also high compared to France, but low compared to Mexico or Hungary.

Thats very true and if you think about it, especially comparing it to even relatively recent times, it is a low rate.

Now how bout that gold star?

[Dutchman9]

Oh you insane right-wing maniacs.

1) I'm advocating European & Scandinavian post-WW2 social-democratic pacifism, not Castro's revolution. But you Neo-Con idiots are too stupid and ignorant to make a distinction.

2) 70% of Americans believe the US is on the wrong track under Bush. This is especially due to American general public opposition to capitalistic Neo-Con economics and American general public opposition to Neo-Con foreign policy militarism. If you disagree with those SMART Americans, then you are BY DEFINITION, *Anti-American*.

You see, I can bash the elitist and rejected Bush-Wackos without being Anti-American.

3) Killing millions of innocent civilians in a Christo-Fascist frenzy while coddling private Blackwater mercenaries in their profit-based bloody rampage is rather immoral and impractical. But insane, ignorant and OBLIVIOUS ultra-right-wing WACKOS don't acknowledge morality, logic, science or reality (they are too busy memorizing faith-based Republicultian slogans).

The only way to peace in Afghanistan AND Iraq is through negotiation and compromise.... on both sides. Stop the extreme polarity and circular attack mode, and discuss each sides concerns and requests *rationally*, not *violently*.

Getting off of other people's land, when they don't want you there, also helps.

[Dutchman9]

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/now/dec10/apha_infant.html

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/GlobalHealth/story?id=1266515

http://www.cnn.com/2006/HEALTH/parenting/0.../mothers.index/

Oh yeah, private medicine, so good because saving infants isn't very profitable.

I thought you insane Republicans were pro-life ?

European / Scandinavian countries with socialized medicine do better...

[M.Dancer]

3) Killing millions of innocent civilians in a Christo-Fascist frenzy

[bush_cheney2004]

1) I'm advocating European & Scandinavian post-WW2 social-democratic pacifism, not Castro's revolution. But you Neo-Con idiots are too stupid and ignorant to make a distinction.

That's all well and good, but we also know how Europe got that way and who paid the bill.

2) 70% of Americans believe the US is on the wrong track under Bush. This is especially due to American general public opposition to capitalistic Neo-Con economics and American general public opposition to Neo-Con foreign policy militarism. If you disagree with those SMART Americans, then you are BY DEFINITION, *Anti-American*.

You see, I can bash the elitist and rejected Bush-Wackos without being Anti-American.

See US federal election - 2004. SMART American votes don't count any more than others. There are 300,000,000 Americans from all over the world....seems they are attracted to "capitalistic Neo-Con economics".

3) Killing millions of innocent civilians in a Christo-Fascist frenzy while coddling private Blackwater mercenaries in their profit-based bloody rampage is rather immoral and impractical. But insane, ignorant and OBLIVIOUS ultra-right-wing WACKOS don't acknowledge morality, logic, science or reality (they are too busy memorizing faith-based Republicultian slogans).

Didn't seem to bother PM Chetien or Bill Clinton very much, and they are certainly not Republicans.

The only way to peace in Afghanistan AND Iraq is through negotiation and compromise.... on both sides. Stop the extreme polarity and circular attack mode, and discuss each sides concerns and requests *rationally*, not *violently*.

Why didn't we try that during WW2, you know, so Europe could become such a paradise so much sooner?

Getting off of other people's land, when they don't want you there, also helps.

Really? First Nations bands will be elated at the news!

[truth-now]

See, the ultra-right-wing Neo-Con policy isn't pro-life afterall, eh ? Mass civilian death is now funny... (because the Pentagon says so ?)

[truth-now]

That's all well and good, but we also know how Europe got that way and who paid the bill.

All you are doing is using a much different war scenario (massive air assault & ground invasion by the Nazi's into Germany's regional neighbouring countries) during a different era (about 70 years ago) to justify using obsolete and inappropriate military approaches in dealing with the more precise demands of terrorist cell identification and elimination.

By going gung-ho with a "kill all the baddies and occupy the Arab region" Bushian approach, you simply give impetus to terrorist recruiting forces everytime you create an orphan or an unjustified civilian casualty, which has happened several 1000's of times.

You are simply blindly pursuing a dogmatically preemptive strategy which EXACERBATES and FACILITATES the problem of Islamic radicalization.

But anyone who supports Bush-Cheney, is likely oblivious to empirical evidence, logic, humanitarianism, alternative approaches or common sense.

Also : the Bush administration only has a 30% approval rating in the USA. Are the 70% of Americans who oppose Bushian Neo-Con policies Anti-American ? Are 70% of Americans Anti-American ?

In Canada, Bush's approval rating is likely less, around 20%. In more left-leaning Europe ? Likely, 5-15%.

That just shows you how outdated, irrational, destructive, elitist and internationally REJECTED Neo-Conservative policies actually are.

Edited May 8, 2008 by truth-now

[truth-now]

No balls....no blue chips.

Apparently, Neo-Cons treat civilian lives as game board fragments.

I thought they were pro-life ?

Oh yeah, you don't want to limit Blackwater and Halliburton profits... they are in the business of killing, pillaging and occupying.

[truth-now]

Really? First Nations bands will be elated at the news!

So, because native people were assaulted by uncivilized policies 500 years ago, you are therefore justified in perpetuating such destructionism in 2008, when we have presumably learned (Neo-Cons don't learn : they dogmatize) that such policies create waves of socio-economic problems ?

Why not stop the cycle of violence, preemptive & imperialistic militarism after centuries of enlightenment and discovery ?

Oh yeah, Neo-Cons can't stop smashing foreign lands and killing foreign civilians... too much historical momentum (and corporate profits). Neo-Cons are some of the most blind, dogmatic, ruthless, ignorant, extremist and destructive maniacs in the history of mankind : and they are oblivious to that fact.

They refer to the tyrants of yesteryear, yester-decade and yester-century in order to (lamely) attempt a rationalization for their rampaging and destructive foreign policies.

Edited May 8, 2008 by truth-now

[Army Guy]

So, because native people were assaulted by uncivilized policies 500 years ago, you are therefore justified in perpetuating such destructionism in 2008, when we have presumably learned (Neo-Cons don't learn : they dogmatize) that such policies create waves of socio-economic problems ?

Why not stop the cycle of violence, preemptive & imperialistic militarism after centuries of enlightenment and discovery ?

Oh yeah, Neo-Cons can't stop smashing foreign lands and killing foreign civilians... too much historical momentum (and corporate profits). Neo-Cons are some of the most blind, dogmatic, ruthless, ignorant, extremist and destructive maniacs in the history of mankind : and they are oblivious to that fact.

Give us all a break....Correct me if i'm wrong but did'nt the NDP and green party want combat troops in Darfur...but i guess it's OK to continue the cycle of violence if we are feeding the masses,

So what does the left call it when a government uses military force to over throw a foreign government in order to feed it's people...and to stop the violence....or do we reserve the words imperialistic militarism, corporate profits for the right.....

Problem with the left is in most cases they don't know what they want, and everything on the right is bad until they want a piece of the pie.....

[M.Dancer]

See, the ultra-right-wing Neo-Con policy.....

[truthwins]

Give us all a break....Correct me if i'm wrong but did'nt the NDP and green party want combat troops in Darfur...but i guess it's OK to continue the cycle of violence if we are feeding the masses,

So what does the left call it when a government uses military force to over throw a foreign government in order to feed it's people...and to stop the violence....or do we reserve the words imperialistic militarism, corporate profits for the right.....

Problem with the left is in most cases they don't know what they want, and everything on the right is bad until they want a piece of the pie.....

Stop saying "us all", as if your blindly militaristic attitude and dogma is accepted by 99-100% of the population.

Your smear of "the left", shows that you are intellectually incapable of distinguishing between authoritarianism, pacifism, social democracy, communism, pragmatism,.... the left is like one big cloudy boogey man to you, because you have been brainwashed by neo-liberal and neo-conservative thought.

It's about the precise role, strategy and tactics (you should know this). The current Canadian role is one based on the BUSHIAN NEO-CONSERVATIVE MODEL OF OCCUPYING AND AGGRESSIVELY TARGETTEING SUSPECTED GENERAL AREAS via *preemptive* front-line tactics. This approach is what CAUSES the civilian casualties to mount, and THAT in turn causes more anguish and regret among family members who had a son, daughter, mother or father killed, and THAT serves as impetus for MORE radicalization and terrorist recruitment.

The only alternative is precisely surgical targetting of absolutely confirmed terrorist *individuals* (not vaguely suspected areas), a ceasefire, and negotiation and compromise.

The current Canadian role has Canadians dying (and killing innocent civilians) for the policies of Rumsfeld. If they wouldn't have attacked Iraq, THEY would have kept adequate forces in Afghanistan and Canadians wouldn't have had to sub in for the departed primary combat role, which is the obligation of the US forces.

The Canadian role should be first aid and infrastructure building, NOT rampaging Bushian-Rumsfeldian aggression.

With the current approach, all we will do is manicure a breeding ground of anti-North-American hostility and resentment, leading to an infinite supply of terrorists.

This is the empirical truth. It wasn't known before, but now, in 2008, it is quite obvious.

[truthwins]

Are secretive CIA torture prisons funny ?

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=se...isons&meta=

America the world's leading jailer is funny ?

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=us...earch&meta=

1000's of dead American soldiers is funny ?

100 dead Canadian soldiers is funny ?

Several 1000 dead Iraqi civilians is funny ?

The US having the highest child poverty rate in the western developed world is funny ?

The US having millions of it's OWN citizens going hungry every year is funny ?

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=mi...ungry&meta=

[jbg]

America the world's leading jailer is funny ?1000's of dead American soldiers is funny ?

100 dead Canadian soldiers is funny ?

Several 1000 dead Iraqi civilians is funny ?

The US having the highest child poverty rate in the western developed world is funny ?

The US having millions of it's OWN citizens going hungry every year is funny ?

Wearing a puss on your face is going to solve this? And why the gratuitous shot at the US? Is that your national sport?

[truthwins]

Wearing a puss on your face is going to solve this? And why the gratuitous shot at the US? Is that your national sport?

Bush has a 30% approval rating in the US. 70% of Americans OPPOSE Neo-Con policies. I am with the vast majority of Americans.

You are ANTI-American.

Exposing the manifestations of 8 years of insane Neo-Con policy is PRO-American. Exposing the Republican domination is PRO-American.

[Army Guy]

Correct me if i'm wrong but did'nt the NDP and green party want combat troops in Darfur...but i guess it's OK to continue the cycle of violence if we are feeding the masses,

Stop saying "us all", as if your blindly militaristic attitude and dogma is accepted by 99-100% of the population.

Actually if you fit into the Cons, Lib, NDP. or Green party, then i'd say yes, they have no problems using our military forces for thier political gains....And yes they accept the dogma that is attached to that.

Your smear of "the left", shows that you are intellectually incapable of distinguishing between authoritarianism, pacifism, social democracy, communism, pragmatism,.... the left is like one big cloudy boogey man to you, because you have been brainwashed by neo-liberal and neo-conservative thought.

My smear,

Problem with the left is in most cases they don't know what they want, and everything on the right is bad until they want a piece of the pie.....

No. this is not a smear, but an opinion that is shared by myself....A party that condemns our mission in Afgan because it is the wrong mission for Canada, it's American lead mission, everything about this mission is bad....and then in the next interview cheerleads for another mission one in Darfur, which contains everything the Afgan mission has, with an exception "it's not an american lead mission", And it's one being championed by the NDP, with little interest from the other parties....

As for being intellectually incapable of distinguishing the difference between the many forms of ruling governments....Thats a big leap on your part, another problem with the left, they have neat little slots they catagory everyone and everything, and if you don't hold they same values or beliefs your automactically slotted into one....For you all it took was my login....

It's about the precise role, strategy and tactics (you should know this). The current Canadian role is one based on the BUSHIAN NEO-CONSERVATIVE MODEL OF OCCUPYING AND AGGRESSIVELY TARGETTEING SUSPECTED GENERAL AREAS via *preemptive* front-line tactics. This approach is what CAUSES the civilian casualties to mount, and THAT in turn causes more anguish and regret among family members who had a son, daughter, mother or father killed, and THAT serves as impetus for MORE radicalization and terrorist recruitment

And what do you base that comment on, your extensive background on military operations. perhaps your back ground is with counter terrorist operations, What is your back ground anyways....My guess is you have no background in anything in ref to Afganistan, and that your comment is one based on opinion, not fact....and you know what they say about opinions everyone has one...

Your comment is full of holes and lies, or misinformation, you take your pick....but if your going to comment on something you should atleast know the facts or enough to bullshit....

The only alternative is precisely surgical targetting of absolutely confirmed terrorist *individuals* (not vaguely suspected areas), a ceasefire, and negotiation and compromise.

Have you read anything about Canadian military operations in Afgan, i think not, I'd like to show you some pictures of deeds that your buddies have carried out, pictures of a 5 year old with her hands cut off, a man staked out in a field stripped of all his skin, and left to die....the list of crimes is a long one, you don't negotiate with men that mastermind this type of terror, you relocate them....you and Mr Layton, should meet with this guys and sort this whole situation out, but you should study up first and what makes them tick and what they are fighting for....

they don't want a cease fire, or compromise....they want to return things to the way they were before....

The Canadian role should be first aid and infrastructure building, NOT rampaging Bushian-Rumsfeldian aggression.

It must be nice to sit in your arm chair and make decisions that effect our soldiers lives that you pick out of your ass, but i forgot the left, our non violent brothers and sisters, are experts in warfare, and what is in our best interests....How many soldiers would have to die, so that you and your crazy ideas could be proven wrong.

With the current approach, all we will do is manicure a breeding ground of anti-North-American hostility and resentment, leading to an infinite supply of terrorists.

This is the empirical truth. It wasn't known before, but now, in 2008, it is quite obvious.

So where were you and your ilk when the decision to send our troops over was decided and what did you do to prevent it...must have been pretty convincing, as we are now deployed....your actions todate have still failed to convince anyone in power to change thier mind....which leaves you here whining and moaning about something you know little about.

[White Doors]

about something you know little about.

And that's being generous.

Sigh, another reasonable poster joins the boards...

[madmax]

Correct me if i'm wrong but did'nt the NDP.. .....

Here is what was said. Your facts are correct. Your opinion, open to discussion.

NDP wants Canada to lead on Darfur mission

Updated Mon. May. 8 2006 6:32 AM ET

Canadian Press

NEW WESTMINSTER, B.C. -- The federal New Democrats want Canada to take a lead role in any UN mission to stop the bloodshed in Sudan's Darfur province, even if that means scaling back its commitment in Afghanistan.

NDP Leader Jack Layton pointed to a weekend poll that suggested public support for Canada's Afghan mission is wavering.

A majority of those polled opposed Canada's effort there, compared with a similar poll in March that found only about 40 per cent against the mission.

Layton said a major Canadian commitment to a UN mission in Darfur, where at least 180,000 people have died and millions are refugees because of a bitter civil war, would likely get much broader public backing.

"Our view is that this is exactly the kind of peacekeeping role that Canadians have always supported,'' Layton said Sunday. "Canada invented the concept of UN-led peacekeeping forces under (then diplomat Lester) Pearson'' in the 1950s.

Sudan's government reached a peace deal with the main insurgent group on Friday.

Liberal Senator Romeo Dallaire, the former general who led the doomed UN peacekeeping mission in Rwanda, has called for Canada to play a lead role in a proposed 20,000-member UN peacekeeping force.

Canada has about 100 Canadian soldiers in Darfur acting as advisers to 7,000 African Union troops, which are also using borrowed Canadian armoured vehicles.

[White Doors]

Afghanistan wants us there, Sudan does not. Does that not compute?

What is so much more noble about Sudan? Nothing.

Bringing peace and stability to both countries would be noble.

See, Layton doesn't care about Sudan, he hates the US. That is the only reason he wants us out of Afghanistan, he could care less about us going to the Sudan and he could care less about the citizens of Afghanistan.

Besides the fact that, due to people who think like him, it is laughable to think that Canada COULD take a 'lead role' in the 'crisis' in the Sudan.

The guy is so easy to see through it's pathetic.