Zionism is an Example of National Self-Determination

[jbg]

I consider Zionism to be an exercise in self-determination, similar to what many anti-Western groups lobby for. The difference is that many who support other groups' "self-determination" do so only when it is harmful to the West's interests.

The Jews tried living in the Diaspora as citizens of host countries. With the exception of the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and, intermittently, the United Kingdom that didn't work out so well. We all know the finale, but the prelude was centuries of off and on persecutions of Jews. Ironically, just as full legal rights were extended to Jews in the 1880's in most non-English speaking countries (the US extended full rights from inception through the early 1830's and Britain did in 1831, thus covering the Empire) all hell broke loose. France's L'Affaire Dreyfusse got its start, I believe, in 1892, the same year as Russia's Kisinev Pogroms. This helped jump-start the Zionist movement, or the movement for a Jewish republic.

At the same time, other peoples, such as the Poles, the Lithuanians, etc. began to lobby for self-determination. Most got their wish after WW I when the Russian, German and Austro-Hungarian empires were dismembered. The Jews got a vague promise from the British, the Balfour Declaration. The events of WW II led to the formation of the State of Israel, largely, in my opinion, since the Jewish survivors of the concentration camp could not return to their (expropriated) homes and businesses, and the murderous intent of their "hosts" was clear and obvious.

Zionists have as much right as any other people to "self-determination". The Arabs have plenty of their own countries:

1. Morocco;
   
2. Tunisia;
   
3. Algeria;
   
4. Libya;
   
5. Egypt;
   
6. Jordan;
   
7. Syria;
   
8. Saudi Arabia;
   
9. UAE;
   
10. Kuwait;
    
11. Chad;
    
12. Sudan;
    
13. Yemen; and
    
14. Iraq
    

In addition they have significant influence, verging on control, in Lebanon. There are plenty of other non-Arab Muslim countries:

1. Iran;
   
2. Afghanistan;
   
3. Turkey;
   
4. Pakistan;
   
5. Uzbekistan (sp);
   
6. Khazakstan;
   
7. Bangladesh;
   
8. Indonesia;
   
9. Malaysia;
   
10. Senegal;
    
11. Somalia; and
    
12. a few other former Soviet Socialist Republics that escape me
    

The attempts to demonize Israel are, to me, an attempt to say that there should not be a Jewish state.

[socred]

I consider Zionism to be an exercise in self-determination

How does the the non-existence of the state of Isreal prevent the followers of Judaism from self-determination?

[socred]

The attempts to demonize Israel are, to me, an attempt to say that there should not be a Jewish state.

Why should there be a state for the followers of Judaism?

[jbg]

How does the the non-existence of the state of Isreal prevent the followers of Judaism from self-determination?

Why should there be a state for the followers of Judaism?

Google "Kisinev", or "L'Affaire Dreyfusse" or "Holocaust".

[socred]

Why should there be a state for the followers of Judaism?Google "Kisinev", or "L'Affaire Dreyfusse" or "Holocaust".

Do you think that the followers of Judaism are the only people to ever suffer persecution?

[jbg]

Do you think that the followers of Judaism are the only people to ever suffer persecution?

One of the few that don't have their own nations. Armenia does now, I believe.

[WarBicycle]

I can think of no other people that has suffered persecution for more than 2,000 years. For example, 70 to 1200 CE and 1201 to 100 CE and 1800 to present

Edited April 26, 2008 by WarBicycle

[socred]

One of the few that don't have their own nations. Armenia does now, I believe.

Really, what nation do "Christians" have?

[socred]

I can think of no other group that has suffered persecution for more than 2,000 years. For example, 70 to 1200 CE and 1201 to 100 CE and 1800 to present

That's probably because no other groups persecution has been given so much "press".

Do you know how many Ukranians died at the hands of Stalin, and the persecutions the Ukranians have endured from the Russians and the Turks?

Or the persecution of Protestants by the Catholics and how many people died in Germany during the 30 years war?

I could go on and on. Unfortunately, these don't get much "press".

[WarBicycle]

Really, what nation do "Christians" have?

They once had Syria, and Egypt before the Muslims took it away by force. The Vatican, North, Central and South America, Australia, New Zealand and most nations in southern Africa.

Edited April 26, 2008 by WarBicycle

[socred]

They once had Syria, and Egypt before the Muslims took it away by force.

I'm talking about right now. What nation do the Christians have?

[WarBicycle]

I'm talking about right now. What nation do the Christians have?

The Vatican, all countries in North, Central and South America, Australia and New Zealand to name a few.

[Guest FrootLoops]

The Vatican, all countries in North, Central and South America, Australia and New Zealand to name a few.

Uhm, the traditional Christian nations are being subjected to forced immigration right now. I don't see that happening to the Muslim nations or Isreal. Why only Western Europe and North America?

[WarBicycle]

Two words: birth control.

[socred]

The Vatican, all countries in North, Central and South America, Australia and New Zealand to name a few.

Really, I'm sure the non-Christians living in those countries might have something to say about that.

The Vatican is really a small part of a city where the pope lives. To call that a "nation" is certainly a stretch; although I do realize they are granted status of a nation. Christians cannot immigrate there based upon the fact that they are Christians.

Specifically, what makes these nations "Christian"?

[WarBicycle]

Really, I'm sure the non-Christians living in those countries might have something to say about that....

A hell of a lot more than non-Muslims are permitted in a Muslim dominated country.

[socred]

A hell of a lot more than non-Muslims are permitted in a Muslim dominated country.

That's probably true.

You still not have explained to me what makes these nations "Christian"?

[WarBicycle]

Probably the fact that most of the countries I've referred as being Christian have Muslim populations of 2% or less. Many of those countries are 98% or more Christian. Even the former Soviet Union which considered itself non-religious had a huge Christian population. Sixteen percent of Israel, a Jewish nation, is Muslim. Muslims living in Israel have more religious freedom than Jews living under an Islamic state.

[jbg]

Uhm, the traditional Christian nations are being subjected to forced immigration right now. I don't see that happening to the Muslim nations or Isreal. Why only Western Europe and North America?

Forced? We've decided to self-immolate.

[Jerry Galinda]

That's probably because no other groups persecution has been given so much "press".

Do you know how many Ukranians died at the hands of Stalin, and the persecutions the Ukranians have endured from the Russians and the Turks?

Or the persecution of Protestants by the Catholics and how many people died in Germany during the 30 years war?

I could go on and on. Unfortunately, these don't get much "press".

From the Turks ? When ?

Don’t exaggerate.

Or the persecution of Protestants by the Catholics and how many people died in Germany during the 30 years war?

It was a kind of domestic war. Protestants were killing by Catholics and Catholics were killing by Protestants. Two armies fought and murdered civilians.

But Jews were murdered - as a civilians - by armies, civilians and so on.

They were - victims - not killers.

[WarBicycle]

From the Turks ? When ?

Don’t exaggerate.

It was a kind of domestic war. Protestants were killing by Catholics and Catholics were killing by Protestants. Two armies fought and murdered civilians.

But Jews were murdered - as a civilians - by armies, civilians and so on.

They were - victims - not killers.

Most didn't even bother to fight back.

[socred]

Probably the fact that most of the countries I've referred as being Christian have Muslim populations of 2% or less. Many of those countries are 98% or more Christian. Even the former Soviet Union which considered itself non-religious had a huge Christian population. Sixteen percent of Israel, a Jewish nation, is Muslim. Muslims living in Israel have more religious freedom than Jews living under an Islamic state.

Do Christians around the world have the 'right of return" to any of these nations?

[socred]

From the Turks ? When ?

Don’t exaggerate.

It was a kind of domestic war. Protestants were killing by Catholics and Catholics were killing by Protestants. Two armies fought and murdered civilians.

But Jews were murdered - as a civilians - by armies, civilians and so on.

They were - victims - not killers.

Are the Jews always the victim?

[jbg]

Do Christians around the world have the 'right of return" to any of these nations?

Maybe not. But Christians have never lacked for countries willing to receive them. During the Shoach most countries, including Canada and the US, largely closed their doors. to the Jews.

[DogOnPorch]

Maybe not. But Christians have never lacked for countries willing to receive them. During the Shoach most countries, including Canada and the US, largely closed their doors. to the Jews.

I believe the US had a yearly quota for Jews (or all immigrants?) while in terms of Canada 'none was too many'. The voyage of the St Louis demonstrated this on both counts. Cuba was the 'mugger' with a 'mask and gun'...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsourc...st/stlouis.html

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If some countries have too much history, we have too much geography.

---Prime Minister W.L. Mackenzie King