Economy headed for the dumper

[eyeball]

Their utility providers are out there all day, every day, trying to guarantee supply by buying and selling product.

Horseshit they are.

Supply side to blame for high oil prices

Oil prices careened toward $117 this week, providing further, painful evidence of the virtual "perfect storm" of things gone wrong in global oil markets. Unfortunately, the long list of problems driving high oil prices shows few signs of letting up anytime soon.

Story

So...this explains why we need a national energy policy that seeks to benefit Canadians directly, the most direct means being - lower prices for Canadians at the pump. Canadians like stability, and stable gasoline prices are the surest way to cool both the short term and long term fear that can only harm our economy. The article I linked to fingers suppliers as being the problem. Producers are not, as the received wisdom of market theory informs us, answering the clamouring demand for refined fuels and neither are the mythical innovators doing any meaningful innovating.

There is no need to whatsever to kill speculators like Morris, however a hefty tax to offset the distortions they cause would be in order. They should still be able to get their ya ya's jerking consumers in other countries around.

If Albertans don't like the term NEP come up with something like the Patriotic Energy Policy or Canada First Energy Policy - anything that spotlights their apparent pride at being Canadian and patriotic and whatnot. Albertan's just need a little smoke up their ass is all. In a few years most of them will be from Eastern Canada anyway so who'll even care what the old guard thinks?

Edited April 29, 2008 by eyeball

[Oleg Bach]

So...this explains why we need a national energy policy that seeks to benefit Canadians directly, the most direct means being - lower prices for Canadians at the pump. Canadians like stability, and stable gasoline prices are the surest way to cool both the short term and long term fear that can only harm our economy. The article I linked to fingers suppliers as being the problem. Producers are not, as the received wisdom of market theory informs us, answering the clamouring demand for refined fuels and neither are the mythical innovators doing any meaningful innovating.

There is no need to whatsever to kill speculators like Morris, however a hefty tax to offset the distortions they cause would be in order. They should still be able to get their ya ya's jerking consumers in other countries around.

If Albertans don't like the term NEP come up with something like the Patriotic Energy Policy or Canada First Energy Policy - anything that spotlights their apparent pride at being Canadian and patriotic and whatnot. Albertan's just need a little smoke up their ass is all. In a few years most of them will be from Eastern Canada anyway so who'll even care what the old guard thinks?

[Oleg Bach]

When the economy heads for the dumpsters, the reason this happens is poor management at the top. Poor management can all so be translated as institutional corruption. Things in a house hold do not fall apart finacially - for no reason> Nor do nations fall apart finacially all on their own as if stricken by some black magic spell. This is a trickle down effect - that is dirty water coming from on high. If you read the face of Allan Greenspan when he is addressing the American congress on the workings of the economy and that private elitist bank account called the Federal reserve.....YOU will see that as they worship this man like fools and some grand finacial wizard - YOU will see Greenspans latest countenance and notice his face says this " I have done my best to serve my masters but I can not keep making something out of nothing forever" ..

This is what has happened...investors are bums who want to generate digital fiat currency for eternity ----you can not fool the nation forever! Money and Mammonism is a false religion...There is no weighable gold available....You want something for nothing long enough - you will get nothing eventually...this finacial belief system is like making a deal with the devil - he always rips you off - that's why they call him the devil...so guys - maybe we should actually make some thing solid and acutally sell something that someone really needs - food - shelter...forget oil - and BIO-fuel...It's quite insane when you start feeding a machine human food..while the humans go hungry.....crazy ! Now you pay the piper - I have already adjusted - but as a banker said of me once..."you are the canary in the gold mine"....and I died a long time ago finacially...but some how I adapt and am healthier where as by millionare brother is bloated and can hardly breathe - the materialist jerk.

[Wild Bill]

Is that not called collusion?

Maybe, but is that a dictionary definition or a legal one? A "gentleman's agreement" has no written paperwork. It doesn't even need any verbal negotiation, or even conversation! To the players involved, the circumstances of the market situation are obvious. They can see what's going on and understand what to do for maximum benefit to themselves.

So how do you bring legal charges? You can call what they're doing anything you want but there's no way you can prove anything in court.

[Oleg Bach]

Maybe, but is that a dictionary definition or a legal one? A "gentleman's agreement" has no written paperwork. It doesn't even need any verbal negotiation, or even conversation! To the players involved, the circumstances of the market situation are obvious. They can see what's going on and understand what to do for maximum benefit to themselves.

So how do you bring legal charges? You can call what they're doing anything you want but there's no way you can prove anything in court.

Firstly to have a "gentleman's agreement" You would have to be a gentle man. These people you speak of are rough and not gentle. They heedlessly proded on in the persuit of their own personal finacial needs. This cut throat careerism and the accumulation of money without purpose has brought the economy into a down spin...You must have a purpose for accumulation of great wealth. Seeing that winning at all cost and having the greatest pile of loot has a side effect - - - That effect being when in a closed economic environ...IF you make your pile of lucre too big someone elses has to get smaller - it's physics. Some one took to much..now there is not enough for others.

[HisSelf]

When I see words like "National Energy Policy" I get a bit confused. Is this policy supposed to twist the market to make it favourable to one particular segment, or is supposed to make it transparent so that absolutely everybody everywhere can understand how it functions?

[eyeball]

When I see words like "National Energy Policy" I get a bit confused. Is this policy supposed to twist the market to make it favourable to one particular segment, or is supposed to make it transparent so that absolutely everybody everywhere can understand how it functions?

The market will never be transparent or function in a way that everyone can understand unless natural capital is established as being the prime fundamental of the planet's economy. In the meantime a Citizen's Energy Policy would put the interests of the owner's of our common property resource (us) first.

By all means we should sell surpluses if we can afford too. Mind you these should be refined value-added products to ensure we maximize our profits. On the other hand, with the possibility of peak oil looming on the horizon, we really need to assess whether we can afford to export any oil at all. The water-hole is getting smaller and its every country for itself, Iceland has its hydro-thermal resource, we have our oil-sands. Other countries need to find their own ways too. The free ride is probably over.

[oreodontist]

Yes, but how to make the market completely transparent. That is the holy grail IMHO. To make the market open and reliably accountable to every single investor.

Do you participate in company meetings in which you own stock? Perhaps you do but most folks don't and can't even take the time to read the auditor's report. Have you contacted your provincial regulators? Probably not and neither have 99% of share holders. I voted along with others to stop sending out physical 'paper' reports on my Pan Canadian stock because there was almost no feedback. I can't see how ,'more transparancy' is needed when even the regulators get little input from share holders or end users.

Hardly anybody now pays attention now so how would even more 'paper' help? If you own shares you can make special requests on transactions, expenditures and so on. As the end user you can contact whatever structure is set up in your province to oversee energy and the infrastructure.

And....if trading in energy is so lucrative, start up an energy trading company. Hundreds of Calgarians and other ex-employees of large energy companies have done just that. There are no secret handshakes to join the 'conspiracy'. Just make sure every transaction is well documented and be ready to explain them to provincial auditors. Most energy trading companies record all telephone calls, keep all email records and so on to dispel any charges of collusion' or the nebulous 'conspiracy'.

[M.Dancer]

The market will never be transparent or function in a way that everyone can understand.......

Most people will never understand because most peole are stupid. Take those who think an energy policy that ensures we get lowers prices for example.

Allow me to elaborate.

If I an energy producer am forced to sell to canadians for less than I can sell overseas, I wouldn't sell domestically at all. The only way they could force me would be become quasi fascistico and infringe my freedoms.

And the end result would be line ups for canadians because every oil producer would be selling their product outside of canada...

...but again, some people are just stupid.

Edited April 29, 2008 by M.Dancer

[oreodontist]

Most people will never understand because most peole are stupid. Take those who think an energy policy that ensures we get lowers prices for example.

Allow me to elaborate.

If I an energy producer am forced to sell to canadians for less than I can sell overseas, I wouldn't sell domestically at all. The only way they could force me would be become quasi fascistico and infringe my freedoms.

And the end result would be line ups for canadians because every oil producer would be selling their product outside of canada...

...but again, some people are just stupid.

Not just energy but everything. Maybe I should write a letter to a mining company in Quebec and ask them to sell me gold at a reduced price...let's say only 600 and ounce instead of close to a thousand? Why not... Why should I, a Canadian, pay the same as someone in the USA? Outrageous. And if the price of peaches goes up, those farmers in Ontario should be more than willing to sell them to me for a dollar a pound instead of the two dollars they can receive across the border in Michigan....what's more essential than nutritious food!!! The government should nationalize those orchards and make sure every Canadian child gets a fresh peach!!

And don't get me started on lobsters. Why the heck should a Calgary restaurant charge..... :angry: ...

[Peter F]

Eyeball mentioned that the bottleneck and resultant price increase in gas is due to NA's inadequate refining.

I don't think thats true since there are no lineups at gas stations nor customers being turned away due to lack of supply. Everyone can still fill up thier tanks.

I think whats happening is good ol capitalist price setting by whatever the market can bear...and I think the market will bear a hellofalot more.

To avoid any forthcoming supply problems I think you are correct - this country will need a NEP.

[M.Dancer]

To avoid any forthcoming supply problems I think you are correct - this country will need a NEP.

Have you always advocated authoriatarian policies?

[August1991]

They did, and still are.

...

Appearances sake? Obviously there is a demand componant to prices, but demand is not the only thing that drives prices. Greed is often a factor, and so is need.

Eyeball, gasoline prices peaked in 2006 and then fell back. Why would oil companies let them fall? Appearances sake? You gotta be joking....

You seem to think that the oil companies can arbitrarily raise the price to $2/litre. So why don't they do it immediately?

I never meant (nor said!) I was talking about an agreement on the world level. I was only referring to the players within Canada. I'm not convinced that the world price of crude is the major factor in the price we pay at Canadian pumps. If that were the case then we would always have had parity with the pump price in the States. History shows that whatever the world price of crude we Canucks still always pay a hefty premium.

In fact, the local price of gasoline is highly correlated with the world price of oil. Canadian gasoline prices are higher than the US price because of local taxes: in Canada, there are GST, PST, excise taxes and municipal taxes on gasoline. These add up to around 45 cents per litre. Indeed, all levels of government like a rise in oil prices - the tax is collected as a percentage of teh sale price.

The market will never be transparent or function in a way that everyone can understand unless natural capital is established as being the prime fundamental of the planet's economy. In the meantime a Citizen's Energy Policy would put the interests of the owner's of our common property resource (us) first.

We do this now, eyeball.

The constitution gives provincial governments jurisdiction over natural resources. They own them and collect royalties from producers on behalf of citizewns of the province. The prime beneficiary of a rising oil price is the provincial governments.

[Peter F]

Have you always advocated authoriatarian policies?

No, not always.

[M.Dancer]

No, not always.

So how would you enforce lower prices in Canada?

[Peter F]

So how would you enforce lower prices in Canada?

I wouldn't.

[M.Dancer]

I wouldn't.

Maybe you misunderstood....

To avoid any forthcoming supply problems I think you are correct - this country will need a NEP.

How will an NEP ensure lower prices and supply without infringing upon the free market and ebdangering the oil industry as a whole?

[Peter F]

Maybe you misunderstood....

How will an NEP ensure lower prices and supply without infringing upon the free market and ebdangering the oil industry as a whole?

Edit: It won't. Must it? End Edit.

I couldn't care less about the price. It's the oil companies oil/gas and they can charge whatever they figure people will pay...or possibly whatever price they think the government of the day will let them get away with.

The supply of such oil products is what I think a NEP should address. As it is, as I have said, I see no problems with the supply. Should such supply problems become likely, then I think the government would do well to have some sort of program in place which would either stockpile reserves, or have the oil companies stock pile reserves, or ensure that the crucial elements of our economy are supplied prior to allowing exports of any surplus. It may be necessary for the government to artificially set the price of such oil reserves above market price in order for our deeply concerned capitalists to pay attention - but thats the price one pays for an assured supply.

Course, that goes against NAFTA, but then I really don't care much for that either.

Edited April 30, 2008 by Peter F

[Wild Bill]

Do you participate in company meetings in which you own stock? Perhaps you do but most folks don't and can't even take the time to read the auditor's report. Have you contacted your provincial regulators? Probably not and neither have 99% of share holders. I voted along with others to stop sending out physical 'paper' reports on my Pan Canadian stock because there was almost no feedback. I can't see how ,'more transparancy' is needed when even the regulators get little input from share holders or end users.

Hardly anybody now pays attention now so how would even more 'paper' help? If you own shares you can make special requests on transactions, expenditures and so on. As the end user you can contact whatever structure is set up in your province to oversee energy and the infrastructure.

And....if trading in energy is so lucrative, start up an energy trading company. Hundreds of Calgarians and other ex-employees of large energy companies have done just that. There are no secret handshakes to join the 'conspiracy'. Just make sure every transaction is well documented and be ready to explain them to provincial auditors. Most energy trading companies record all telephone calls, keep all email records and so on to dispel any charges of collusion' or the nebulous 'conspiracy'.

Glad to hear you're alright, Jack! Seriously.

Still, Ontario is a totally different demographic. Speaking for myself, I've been so damn strapped for over 10 years of a declining economy that I have no resources whatsoever to put into such investments, whether with money or with time. Albertans would remember the economic disasters of years ago with the NEP and other bonehead federal programs. Ontario is undergoing something similar right now.

Farmers have been ripping out fruit trees and grapes here in the Niagara peninsula. The last juice factory has closed and they have no one else in a practical situation to buy their product. So they are simply closing down the farms. The number of factories laying off and/or closing is staggering.

The TD bank just issued a report predicting that in 2 years Ontario will qualify as a "have-not" province under equalization.

Meanwhile, Flaherty blames the Ontario premier, McGuinty. I happen to think he's right but I just don't understand what he's trying to achieve. So what? He can crow all he likes about McGuinty being a bonehead. What reason is this for Ontario to give Flaherty more seats next election?

Perhaps I'm too cynical but it almost seems as if the new Tory Party being so western based they think that Ontario deserves some of the hard times the west has historically experienced. Maybe so, although the trouble with that kind of thinking is that the people suffering today are not the same people who were around at the time of the NEP.

Flaherty should be thinking about how to win the hearts and minds of the voters in Ontario. Making the other guy look bad doesn't automatically make your guys look better. The Tories should be doing everything they can to make themselves look like a better choice to help Ontario get back on the right path to prosperity. If they look like they're just oil patch kids gloating at Ontario's misfortunes or that they are waging a personal vendetta against the provincial liberal government and punishing Ontario voters for making a wrong choice then they are NOT likely to be successful in winning more Ontario seats!

Sometimes when I follow the news I'd swear that the Tories have given up on Ontario and are handing us over to Dion and his bunch. What a choice! I can put my 'X' beside either "smug and cranky" or "dumb and screwy".

[eyeball]

You seem to think that the oil companies can arbitrarily raise the price to $2/litre. So why don't they do it immediately?

Appearances sake, if they got THAT greedy they know they'd be faced with an NEP even sooner. Look, at some point in the future we WILL hit peak oil. Am I to believe that the government of Canada is going to stand by and just let the last of our oil go to the highest foreign bidder with nary a care for our own needs?

The constitution gives provincial governments jurisdiction over natural resources. They own them and collect royalties from producers on behalf of citizewns of the province. The prime beneficiary of a rising oil price is the provincial governments.

Oh well, I guess we'll just have to get the feds to tax the shit out of the oil companies and speculators. Madmax pointed out how gasoline prices are much higher in Norway than Canada but oil companies there pay the Norwegian government way more than our companies do. Link

There's more than one way to skin a cat.