France shocked by attack on Muslim war graves

[kuzadd]

You're right, I did forget that one, unless I never saw it, but I most likely forgot it.

Still, one or two extreme views or statements shouldn't be ascribed to one and all, nor should general insults be applied to one and all. It doesn't matter where you go or who you talk to, you will always find some with those kinds of attitudes.

As for the graves, like I said, it's a terrible thing but not uncommon just about anywhere. Just recently vandals desecrated a jewish cemetary here in Alberta. Like I said, it happens.

I didn't apply any general insult to all the people here. I said, it made me wonder if some from here, were there. some is not all.

There are alot of interesting posters here, whom it would never even enter my mind, to associate them with hateful behaviour.

nazi's used to put jews on boats, and sink them, or no country would let them in, so oreodentists, 'relatives' are in good company, with their attitudes, and goody (facetious) for them and anyone espousing that crap.

[M.Dancer]

I didn't apply any general insult to all the people here. I said, it made me wonder if some from here, were there. some is not all.

I think you have an apology to make....

Will I disagree, it was a totally called for comment. One need have only been a long time poster here, to recall a great many posts calling for death to muslims or annihilation of muslims.

....to a great many posters.

[White Doors]

Agreed. Apology please.

[Wilber]

Obviously given the fact that those graves were from WW1, Muslims had been assimilating just fine, inc. fighting and dying for France.

Probably colonial troops from North Africa but they did die for France.

[M.Dancer]

Probably colonial troops from North Africa but they did die for France.

....not to mention they were most likely conscripts.

[DogOnPorch]

Zouaves and Goumiers et al. Indeed, conscripts from North Africa. Doubt they lived in France at all...unless a trench near Verdun counts. It was Morrocan Gourniers that broke and ran during the Ypres gas attack of 1915...the Canadians held the line with urine soaked rags that neutralized the chlorine. Not the best French troops..

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There'll be a flag flying out there in the morning that I swore to uphold.

---Beau Geste

Edited April 8, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[kuzadd]

Probably colonial troops from North Africa but they did die for France.

I am glad wilber at least recognized the one relevant fact.

does it make any difference how they came to be there?

Are the soldiers who were drafted , let's say for Vietnam, as opposed to those who signed up on their own, are they somehow lesser soldiers. Or did they die for the exact reason ( fighting an enemy) as the others who signed up?

I'd say they all died for exactly the same reason.

Isn't it the fact that they fought and died for France, the very reason they are buried in the cemetery.

[M.Dancer]

Isn't it the fact that they fought and died for France, the very reason they are buried in the cemetery.

Yes..that and the fact they didn't have refridgeration back then so repatriating the bodies was out of the question.

[DogOnPorch]

I am glad wilber at least recognized the one relevant fact.

does it make any difference how they came to be there?

Are the soldiers who were drafted , let's say for Vietnam, as opposed to those who signed up on their own, are they somehow lesser soldiers. Or did they die for the exact reason ( fighting an enemy) as the others who signed up?

I'd say they all died for exactly the same reason.

Isn't it the fact that they fought and died for France, the very reason they are buried in the cemetery.

Volunteer troops are far better soldiers than drafties. That's just a fact, Jack. War cemetaries are often a strange mix of whoever was at a particular battle or who fell in a certain area. It wasn't to be 'politically correct'. It was however a totally criminal act defacing these graves no matter WHO was in them. So quit acting like your from planet Superion.

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Here come da judge...here come da judge.

---Flip Wilson

[Wilber]

Yes..that and the fact they didn't have refridgeration back then so repatriating the bodies was out of the question.

We had refrigeration during WW2 and Korea but didn't repatriate the bodies of our dead. It seems to be a custom that really got started with Viet Nam.

Volunteer troops are far better soldiers than drafties.

We don't know if these people were draftees or not. They may very well have been volunteers. Colonial troops usually were. The British Indian army of WW2 was the largest volunteer army in history.

[M.Dancer]

We had refrigeration during WW2 and Korea but didn't repatriate the bodies of our dead. It seems to be a custom that really got started with Viet Nam.

But they didn't then.

And they didn't have a lot of intercontinental flights or excess steamship cargo space either in the second world war so ....

We don't know if these people were draftees or not. They may very well have been volunteers. Colonial troops usually were. The British Indian army of WW2 was the largest volunteer army in history.

By and large the colonial troops were conscripts. For that matter, the vast majority of the french army were conscripts.

[DogOnPorch]

We had refrigeration during WW2 and Korea but didn't repatriate the bodies of our dead. It seems to be a custom that really got started with Viet Nam.

We don't know if these people were draftees or not. They may very well have been volunteers. Colonial troops usually were. The British Indian army of WW2 was the largest volunteer army in history.

The Armies of the Raj were certainly elite at times while other units were...errr...horrible. Monte Casino is a good example of both excellent and rotten Indian troops.

French colonials troops enjoyed a better standard of living than the general population of the colony which was the impetus for 'volunteering' when not conscripted during war. A job rather than some higher motive to serve France. Other than the FFL which used a totally different motivation (beats prison), the French Colonials were still all 2nd rank troops. After the Summer of 1914, though, the cream of the French Army already lay dead on the field...so bring on the Colonials.

I stand corrected , though...no telling how these troops ended up in their units.

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A great country worthy of the name does not have any friends.

---Charles de Gaulle

[Wilber]

By and large the colonial troops were conscripts. For that matter, the vast majority of the french army were conscripts.

A large portion of all the European armies were conscripted during the world wars. Such was not the case for colonial troops however. I believe this was largely true with the French as well as the Germans and the British never conscripted men who were not of British origin into any of their colonial forces.

Link

Other good references are Byron Farwell's books on the Victorian military such as Armies of the Raj

[Wilber]

The Armies of the Raj were certainly elite at times while other units were...errr...horrible. Monte Casino is a good example of both excellent and rotten Indian troops.

Their performance in Europe was spotty. The problem with Indian troops in Europe was the fact they were so far out of their element. Colonial troops were generally more lightly equipped and had older weapons than their European counterparts because they were not intended to fight European armies, plus the food and just about everything else was wrong for their culture. Most were recruited on the understanding that they would never have to serve in Europe as there were religious implications for Hindus serving outside the sub continent and when their British Indian officers got killed off (which happened quite rapidly during WWI) there was hardly anyone left that they could understand to command them.

Even the Gurkha's, who many considered the finest light infantry in the world felt that pressure, although they still performed very well in most cases. Gurkha's were always recruited by their own people when home on leave. British personnel were not allowed into Nepal to recruit for themselves.

[DogOnPorch]

Their performance in Europe was spotty. The problem with Indian troops in Europe was the fact they were so far out of their element. Colonial troops were generally more lightly equipped and had older weapons than their European counterparts because they were not intended to fight European armies, plus the food and just about everything else was wrong for their culture. Most were recruited on the understanding that they would never have to serve in Europe as there were religious implications for Hindus serving outside the sub continent and when their British Indian officers got killed off (which happened quite rapidly during WWI) there was hardly anyone left that they could understand to command them.

Even the Gurkha's, who many considered the finest light infantry in the world felt that pressure, although they still performed very well in most cases. Gurkha's were always recruited by their own people when home on leave. British personnel were not allowed into Nepal to recruit for themselves.

The British were mindful of the strengths and weaknesses of their various colonials...probably one of the few things they learned during the Sepoy Rebellion. The Gurkhas were a very special case as these guys were/are natural soldiers and always treated as an elite unit rather than some form of 'rabble colonial'. They were a key element to victory in many battles...including Monte Casino.

General Slim's famous recounting of a Gurkha operation is typical:

For 20 years between the wars he was a Gurkha officer, as so many of the 14th Army’s fighting generals were. Indeed, for a time, they were known on the front as the "Mongol Conspiracy." Slim loves the Gurkhas, whose language he speaks. His favourite stories are of Gurkhas. He tells of the paratroopers who were to jump at 300 feet. As they had never jumped before, their havildar asked if they might go a little nearer the ground for their first jump. He was told that this was impossible because the parachutes would not have time to open. "Oh," said the Gurkha, "so we get parachutes, eh?"

http://www.burmastar.org.uk/slim.htm

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I suppose you can say I became an odd-job man.

---Lord Mountbatten

[AngusThermopyle]

Yes, they were hellishly good troops. Ferocious in battle and unshakably loyal. Stories about them abound and some of them are pretty amazing.

[DogOnPorch]

Well they collect ears, n'est pas? Entire units of Italians and Argentinians have surrendered when learning they faced Gurkhas across the way.

Canadians were also feared...especially in WW1 as they wouldn't let the status-quo be. Quiet night in the trenches? Time for a raid on Fritz's positions. In the Imperial War Museum I saw a collection of these near Medieval WW1 trench fighting weapons best describes as maces, axes and billhooks. Brutal. It was much the same on our side as well to learn you faced eager Prussians rather than laid-back Bavarians.

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As an English General has very truly said, 'The German army was stabbed in the back.'

---General Paul von Hindenburg

[AngusThermopyle]

Entire units of Italians and Argentinians have surrendered when learning they faced Gurkhas across the way.

They didn't want to face the Kukri (I dont blame them), it was well known that the Ghurka tradition was to never draw the Kukri unless it tasted blood. Thats why they would cut themselves when they cleaned it. The blade demanded blood each time it was drawn.

I always wanted a real Kukri, still do.

[DogOnPorch]

They didn't want to face the Kukri (I dont blame them), it was well known that the Ghurka tradition was to never draw the Kukri unless it tasted blood. Thats why they would cut themselves when they cleaned it. The blade demanded blood each time it was drawn.

I always wanted a real Kukri, still do.

A prof of mine had one...once a group of us were at his house, he took it out and mentioned that very thing. We all looked around nervously...he nicked his thumb and put it back...lol.

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Whether the knife falls on the melon or the melon on the knife, the melon suffers

---Zulu Proverb

[Wilber]

My father brought a Kukri home at the end of the war. As well as the large knife there was also another small one in the sheath as well as a couple of sharpened bamboo sticks maybe 4 inches long. I guess they would put them between their fingers in a fist and use them as a weapon. I used the thing to hack down blackberry's. Dumb kid.

I like this description.

Based on the recollections of Colonel Gian Singh, (formerly 7th Indian Division)

A Gurkha from the 4/8 Gurkhas had demonstrated to me in India how best to use the kukri. Firstly, you get in close to your enemy and stab him in the lower body. When the kukri goes in, the enemy always doubles up. You then swiftly withdraw your kukri and take his head off. With a sharp blade that’s easy. I saw many an enemy with their heads off so it must work!

[AngusThermopyle]

When used in skilled hands it was always known to be an effective weapon, one of the best. It was developed and based on a phylosophy of brutal efficiency in close quaters. Thats why enemy troops would be demoralised and even run. They didn't want to face the Kukri.

Its not an urban myth or something, these guys were quiet and stealthy enough to sneak right up to enemy lines in the dark of night and kill their foes silentely. They'd get within a foot or two and feel for the boot laces. Allied troops used a straight lacing patern on their boots, the Axis used a criss cross patern. If you were using the wrong boots you got to die quickly and silently.

[Peter F]

....not to mention they were most likely conscripts.

well I'm glad you didn't mention it because conscripted or not they still died for their country and therefore has no bearing on the issue.

[DogOnPorch]

well I'm glad you didn't mention it because conscripted or not they still died for their country and therefore has no bearing on the issue.

Nobody has said 'oh goody, goody...Muslim graves vandalized'. Kuzadd might want that reaction but she didn't get it. As mentioned, my family's Holocaust Memorial had cement poured on it and swastikas drawn into the cement just last January. Kuz- even knows this. So she's playing to a sympathetic audience. What more is there to say except 'that's awful'? However, some of us here do enjoy a good chance to discuss military history...which is about all this thread is good for, now.

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Zum letzten Mal wird nun Appell geblasen!

Zum Kampfe steh'n wir alle schon bereit!

---Die Fahne Hoch

Edited April 13, 2008 by DogOnPorch