Al Quaeda No 2. We Don't Kill Innocents

[AngusThermopyle]

re-equipped with AFV's, Artillery, supporting arms

For the most part we are in agreement except for a few points.

They are re-equipping them now but it is very far from complete. For instance personal armour and small arms. This process is underway and Canada is playing a pretty large part in the process. The last issue of Legion magazine had a good article about how we are donating our old C-7's to them as we replace them with new ones. This is hardly state of the art equipment, though far superior to the AK's many of them now carry. It's pretty much the same in all area's of equipment.

One thing most people forget is training. We are doing major work in this area, supplying the proper training to an armed force is a major undertaking and isn't accomplished overnight. We can expect that area of aid to drag on for quite some time.

I would contend that the average Afghani did live in fear of the Taliban. It's well recorded by now how they utilized draconian and very final methods to keep the conquered citizenry in check. The average resident of Kabul is not a fighter, they're just people trying to survive. So when the goon squad showed up they had few options open to them, other than being killed by the aforementioned goon squad.

One thing people either forget or don't know is that Guerrilla warfare techniques are capable of tying up much larger forces for extended periods of time. Given that they use a sort of modified form of Guerrilla warfare it doesn't surprise me at all that they are a persistent thorn in the side of the Afghani government, and at this particular time, the NATO coalition.

[Peter F]

I'm sure members of this board would find this man a perfect candidate for immigration to Canada.

Please...you embarass me.

[AngusThermopyle]

I'm sure members of this board would find this man a perfect candidate for immigration to Canada.

Which man? Do you mean PeterF? Perhaps I'm wrong but I believe he already lives here.

[Qwerty]

Which man? Do you mean PeterF? Perhaps I'm wrong but I believe he already lives here.

The Al queda number 2 man.

LOL I don't believe it now people on htis forum are backing Al queda...I don't believe this...lol...too funny.

No wonder we are losing the war.

Edited April 23, 2008 by Qwerty

[M.Dancer]

True, but those who made up the Northern Alliance didn't just vanish into the hills, nor were they shipped out.

It was an Alliance....once there goal was met, they split up into various political parties. Some are part of the Government, some are part of the elected opposition. Some joine the national army. Most returned to their pre war occupations.

So why is the Islamic Republic so weak and incapable of keeping the Taliban out if they are stronger now than they were when they threw the Taliban out?

That's like saying why are the Police so weak and incapable of preventing crime. The honest answer is it is far easier (but much more dangerous) to be a guerilla insurgent than to be part of a conventional army. Insurgents can hide in caves, armies cannot. Nor do they want to.

The Taliban willl be defeated, it is only a matter of time.

[AngusThermopyle]

The Al queda number 2 man.

LOL I don't believe it now people on htis forum are backing Al queda...I don't believe this...lol...too funny.

No wonder we are losing the war.

Okay, now I see what you mean. Well don't count me amongst those who would welcome him. In these matters I tend to be a bit draconian myself. My solution to the problem this man poses runs along the same lines as Stalins favourite method. One quick, cheap bullet through the back of the head and the problem presented by this man is eliminated.

Come to think of it, that would work well when dealing with Terrorists in general. Not just this No. 2 wanker.

[myata]

Lets review the facts shall we.

1) The taliban offered refuge and protection to the group known as Al qaeda, knowing full well what the AlQaeda agenda was.

.... comment #1

2) The Taliban actually incorporated Al Qaeda members into it's own military forces...

3) The Taliban actually trained members of Al Qaeda.

Visit My Website

... comment #2

4) The Taliban was being somewhat funded by Al Qaeda and Bin Ladin.

5) Bin Ladin son marries into the taliban.

... #1

I'm not sure about that "knowing full well" part; can it be substantiated, somehow?

.... #2

Really? Try searching for "Taliban" in your own reference; please report your findings here

Overall:

No, none of the above, even if we admit it proven, without reservations, makes Taleban conscious and willing co-conspirator of Al Quaeda's terrorist activities abroad.

Finally:

No, one can't seriously argue that Taleban is a negligent little group that enjoys no popular support in the country; then turn around to say that they'll jump to the power the moment we leave; it's a nonsense; logical impossibility; the reality of the things, most likely, is that the government in Kabul has insufficient credibility among population, and unclear loyaltly of army and police, and only the presence of NATO troops holds the unlikely bundle together.

[Peter F]

Please...you embarass me.

Ok. I see what you mean now. You are referring to the original post

[Peter F]

Qwerty:

I'm sure members of this board would find this man a perfect candidate for immigration to Canada.

Ok. I see what you mean now. You are referring to the original post.

...and I am sure you would do terrible things to cats...

[Army Guy]

I'm not sure about that "knowing full well" part; can it be substantiated, somehow?

How can you set up and operate terrorist training camps and "NOT" know full well on what Al Qaeda intentions where....

Really? Try searching for "Taliban" in your own reference; please report your findings here

Your killing me here , did you read the quote, Bin Laden was able to forge an alliance between the Taliban and his Al-Qaeda organization. It is understood that al-Qaeda-trained fighters known as the 055 Brigade were integrated with the Taliban army between 1997 and 2001. (Quote from Wikipedia below )

plus from the quote from above,.... Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban's protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense,[/u]

Overall:

No, none of the above, even if we admit it proven, without reservations, makes Taleban conscious and willing co-conspirator of Al Quaeda's terrorist activities abroad.

How can you train terrorist, for the purpose of riegning terror down on some other nation, or group, and not consciously be a partner in that....How can you incorparte them in thier defense department and not have ties to the Afgan government, be kind of like JTF taking on military jobs on the side.....and when they are caught say to the world they don't belong to us....give me a break....

No, one can't seriously argue that Taleban is a negligent little group that enjoys no popular support in the country; then turn around to say that they'll jump to the power the moment we leave; it's a nonsense; logical impossibility; the reality of the things, most likely, is that the government in Kabul has insufficient credibility among population, and unclear loyaltly of army and police, and only the presence of NATO troops holds the unlikely bundle together.

I'm not saying that the taliban can or will return to power, they do however have the ability to drastically change the polictics of the country, to the piont where they may gain control over some seats within the country....they also have the ability to slow down progress , to destroy projects and keep the nation in turmoil....

[Army Guy]

But they did "allow" the Taliban to stay in power. They weren't helpless or too fearful of death to remove them.

Your not comprending the power of fear, and what it does to the average citizen...Did every allied citizen mobilize to defeat the NAZI's, NO and yet there was a real threat, atleast to the British... did every german mobilize to push back ALLIED's advances NO, and defeat was almost certain in that case.......why is that ? Fear of dying on the battle field out wieghs the fear of what the Nazi's would or could do if they did not fight, perhaps the same could be said with regular Afganis citizens....Not everyone believes in a cause, enough to die for it anyway...

ones beliefs are faded even more when your only concern is your families safety, and feeding them a major challange in Afgan..

The Northern Alliance was in the field actively campaigning to overthrow the Taliban government. These are not people who are helpless under the fear of death.

Opposing the Northern Alliance was the forces of the Taliban; in the field and actively campaigning to destroy the Northern Alliance. These are not the actions of people who are helpless under the fear of death to do anything to remove the Taliban. In fact these actions are indicative that they are willing to risk life and limb in order to preserve what they have under the Taliban and reject the alternative of the Northern Alliance.

Your right they are not actions of people who lived in fear under life in a brutal regime...But the northern alliance and the people under thier banner did not, nor had never lived under the Taliban regime.... ...but there is 26 million people in Afgan and those doing the fighting on both sides , whose numbers are small in comparison, that fact in it self does nothing to support your above argument...

Even the Taliban army which had most of the Afganis population, it's numbers on the battle field did not reflect your piont...had everyone been mobilized to fight for thier taliban beliefs then they could have easily over whelmed the northern alliance....which proves that the majority of Afganis did not fight for either side...

But after 30 years of war, under brutal governments and leaderships....kind of does that to a people...

...Yet we are to believe that while the former half-trained and half-paid poorly armed sloggers of the Northern Alliance - now 60,000odd strong, re-equipped with AFV's, Artillery, supporting arms and actually trained and organized - are now incapable of taking on an enfeebled Taliban? That 40,000+ foriegn troops are necessary to protect the security of the Islamic Republic for the next 10-20 years?

The Afganis army is "not' re equiped with AFV's Artillery, and supporting arms...they have recieved a few gunships from ex warsaw pact countries and few helos, but most of thier AFV's are "toyota pick-up trucks'...yes the us is about to give them some humvees, and few trucks but nothing compared to western unit Standards ....

Most if not all of the ex taliban ( left behind by russian forces) armoured equipment sits in the desert rotting or destroyed by coalition airstrikes parked in massive fields rusting very few are operational and in use.......like i said before there 60,000 man military is mostly on foot, armed with 30 year old rifles...few exceptions some units have been equiped with the US m-16 by US forces and some C-7 rifles by Canadian troops... but that does not make an army...

are now incapable of taking on an enfeebled Taliban? That 40,000+ foriegn troops are necessary to protect the security of the Islamic Republic for the next 10-20 years?

It's not that they are incapable of taking the taliban on, in fact they do so every day...what they lack is the numbers to properly secure the entire nation...your also not comprehending the effectivness of terrorist attacks...

take a look at Israel and thier size of thier armed forces/ police depts and yet terrorist still mange to hit targets well inside israel....how is that when israel is smaller in size and has a much larger resources to deal with the threat ? ..

[myata]

How can you set up and operate terrorist training camps and "NOT" know full well on what Al Qaeda intentions where....

Well then, there's a number of other countries where such camps operated (and possibly still operate). Does that make them willing accomplices of Al Quaeda too? Are we going to reeducate them all now?

See, I'm not saying that Taleban wasn't involved in Al Quaeda's terrorism; only that such fact had to be proven with solid undeniable evidence before such a serious measure as full invasion is even considered; and the evidence demonstrated so far has been very thin. I'm not going to analyse every accusation one can throw up, but yes, in principle, one side could maintain relations, and use services, of another, without full knowledge of the latter's plans and/or activities; to accuse Taleban of being accomplice, one'd have to prove that they at least knew, and did nothing to prevent, of the forthcoming attacks.

BTW - according to the same link (Taliban - Wikipedia), Taleban has offered to extradite Al Quaeda lidership to a third muslim country for a trial; of course there's no way to tell how genuine it was, but wouldn't the chance that it'd work worth at least a try? It would achieve the stated objectives (dismantle Al Quaeda: remember, that was the objective to begin with, correct? not to save the world...), and avoid the invasion and insurgency it triggered.

I'm not saying that the taliban can or will return to power, they do however have the ability to drastically change the polictics of the country, to the piont where they may gain control over some seats within the country....they also have the ability to slow down progress , to destroy projects and keep the nation in turmoil....

OK, that's worth noting, for the record. Because what we're hearing here is that we absolutely cannot withdraw or the countrys, and whole world's future would be put in great jeopardy.

BTW here's some independent info on situation in Afghan: The Star: Afghanistan, from today's news. Doesn't make it likely that Taleban is a small insignificant group (look at the number of thier dead, in just one year). Much more like, as any number of times before, that we picked a faction and now supporting it at all costs, because it's more likely to do our bidding.

[Peter F]

Point taken regarding equipment of the Afghan army. Point taken that after 30 years of warfare popular support for one side or the other was dismally low and not everyone fought for the Taliban (few did) and not everyone fought to overthrow the Taliban (more but still not lots).

But

The Afganis army is "not' re equiped with AFV's Artillery, and supporting arms...they have recieved a few gunships from ex warsaw pact countries and few helos, but most of thier AFV's are "toyota pick-up trucks'...yes the us is about to give them some humvees, and few trucks but nothing compared to western unit Standards ....

I don't dispute that. Nevertheless they are better equipped, trained, more numerous and probably as motivated now than the Northern Alliance was n in 2002. That suggests to me that the presence of NATO forces is not required to secure the present Afghan government from Taliban takeover. Yet NATO is there to stop the Taliban from taking over. Tthe government line is that the presence of NATO forces is absolutly necessary to stop the Taliban from taking over. In fact more forces need be committed by NATO to stop the Taliban from taking over.

your also not comprehending the effectivness of terrorist attacks...

take a look at Israel and thier size of thier armed forces/ police depts and yet terrorist still mange to hit targets well inside israel....how is that when israel is smaller in size and has a much larger resources to deal with the threat ? ..

I agree with that. So the greater committment of NATO forces will have minimal effect upon the Taliban in terms of Taliban terrorism.

Are the Taliban gaining strength or getting weaker? Has the ability of Afghanistan to toss the Taliban out increased or diminished?

It seems obvious that the Taliban is gaining strength and Afghanistans capabilities of successfully opposing the Taliban are diminishing.

Thus the need for more commitment from NATO.

Wich in turn means it that NATO's ability to secure the Afghan government seems to be failing. IE we are losing.

So, I have to ask, why is that? It isn't because the Taliban is gaining military might. And it isn't because NATO and the Afghan AF are incapable of militarily securing Afghanistan - they most certainly are. So thier is no military reason for events to be unfolding as they are.

Something else is happening. Something non-military.

[M.Dancer]

Are the Taliban gaining strength or getting weaker? Has the ability of Afghanistan to toss the Taliban out increased or diminished?

It seems obvious that the Taliban is gaining strength and Afghanistans capabilities of successfully opposing the Taliban are diminishing.

I see no evidence that they are gaining at all, that being said it wouldn't take a lot of them to destabilize the nation and throw it into chaos once again, given that Afghanistan has such a long way to go rebuilding itself.

How many schools need they bomb before parents stop sending their kids to school? How many aid workers would they need to kill before aid workers are forced to leave?

[Army Guy]

BTW - according to the same link (Taliban - Wikipedia), Taleban has offered to extradite Al Quaeda lidership to a third muslim country for a trial; of course there's no way to tell how genuine it was, but wouldn't the chance that it'd work worth at least a try? It would achieve the stated objectives (dismantle Al Quaeda: remember, that was the objective to begin with, correct? not to save the world...), and avoid the invasion and insurgency it triggered.

Yes they did offer to to extradite him, and as soon as that offer was being explored, Bin Ladin was no where to be found, he had gone missing....gone missing in a country that had a complete lock down on it's citizens, let alone a well known person like bin ladin....See link below....

The Taliban protected Osama bin Laden from extradition requests by the U.S., variously claiming that bin Laden had "gone missing" in Afghanistan,[88] or that Washington "cannot provide any evidence or any proof" that bin Laden is involved in terrorist activities and that "without any evidence, bin Laden is a man without sin... he is a free man."[89][90] Evidence against bin Laden included courtroom testimony and satellite phone records.[

taliban

Well then, there's a number of other countries where such camps operated (and possibly still operate). Does that make them willing accomplices of Al Quaeda too? Are we going to reeducate them all now?

Your a smart person, would you allow Al Qaeda to set up and operate a terrorist training camp in your country, your backyard....Why not ? because they would be training terrorists right, ? and any one knows that terrorist activities are illigal, right....So you know that just allowing them into operate out of your country is bad....but Al Qeada was part of many taliban depts, info flowed both ways, ....shit the Taliban even instructed them to take out the Northern alliance leader, which they did....how could they not know they carried out terrorist activities when they were instructing them to do it ....

Secondly Al qaeda has a separate but large group of it's own men inbeded in the Taliban military forces, which makes them acountable to the Taliban government....it makes thier actions , actions of the taliban government....

actions of those inbedded in the taliban military anyways...

I'm not saying that Taleban wasn't involved in Al Quaeda's terrorism

What are you saying, because i'm lost, if your objective was to get me chasing around in circles "you won".....

Because that is exactly what your impling.....if the taliban were involved in Al qaeda terrorist activies and you know that then why are we posting....thats all the proof you need....

only that such fact had to be proven with solid undeniable evidence before such a serious measure as full invasion is even considered; and the evidence demonstrated so far has been very thin.

Do you think that all the government that were involved in taking down the taliban did not see the evidance, wiegh it with there decisions, was it lawful, the UN thought so........or do you think they all got a phone call pressed the red button and military forces started to relocate the taliban to a better place.... And now your confused and refused to believe that because you have not seen all that edvidance it is impossiable, that those poor taliban folk are to blame for the crimes they have been accused of....

Your right i concede , i've explained it a dozen times you refuse to look at the facts and refuse to change your opinion....which is your right....you keep your opinion and i will keep mine....

this next Roto will be my third in Afgan, i've volunteered not because i will be away from my family, not because i love to be in a war zone, Not for my country, which does not support the very mission they sent us on, ..but because i believe in what we are doing over there, i've seen the improvements, and although they are painfully slow they are there....I''ve seen what these Taliban scumbags are capable of doing to thier own people , i've seen thier pain, thier joy, thier tears thier laughter....it's amazing what an open hand can do, and the phrase, i'm here to help what do you need.....And if all of that is bad, then i guess that will be between me and my maker....until then i will have to live with every decision i make over there, it is i who will have to live with the ghosts...me and thousands of Canadians like me....

[myata]

And the 60,000 army plus another 70,000 police can do absolutely nothing about it? (ratio 130 : 2). Not even if we throw in a few local militia volunteers, which, according to our esteemed friend, are all and wholeheartedly, on the side of the new government. Let's say, 1 in 50 of grown up male population volunteered to militia as they did during Soviet occupation (surely fear factor etc was no less then than now?). That's (30,000,000 / 2 (male) / 2 (young + elderly) / 50 = 150,000 of able bodied armed militia, i.e another 150 : 2. Bringing the total to 280 : 2, or 140 of government forces per 1 (one!) Taleban. No, not enough, they need another 50,000 of NATO troops, with their fighter planes, helicopters and heavy artillery (equipment / traning factor 1 : 5) doubling the total to some 250 : 1); all to just to keep things in, quite unstable, order.

You want to believe it, go ahead; there's no limit to how far imagination can be stretched, as previous outlandish claimes (of WMD, ballistic missiles, alien invasions, etc) have demonstrated.

To anybody with a clear mind though it should be quite obvious that with this kind of armed forces involved, we're talking about a civil war, if not in the whole country, then in the "unstable provinces" (which make at least a half of it). Fighting in a civil war propping governments that can't stand on their own - we always did it, and always with the same result (i.e being kicked out on the way causing huge anguish and damage to the locals). I wounder if / why the result should be any different this time around?

[Army Guy]

I don't dispute that. Nevertheless they are better equipped, trained, more numerous and probably as motivated now than the Northern Alliance was n in 2002. That suggests to me that the presence of NATO forces is not required to secure the present Afghan government from Taliban takeover

.

Then sir you don't understand how many troops it takes to effectivly secure a country the size of Afganistan from terrorist....protecting your country from regular invading armies is a totally different concept....when dealing with terrorist you have to be at every street corner, every market, every road junction, est thousands of road blocks for searching cars, trucks , people and you need to do that around the clock....365 days a year....you need to double or triple those numbers because soldiers need to eat , sleep...etc....so they will need replacements....then you need armed forces patroling and activily looking for the bad guys....once again they can't do this 24 hours a day so double those numbers....i think you'll find that soon those numbers add up....and quickly....

Nato's commitment is not just combat, but reconstruction as well hundred of projects are ongoing across the country every day....so those 40,000 nato soldiers got whidled down by a third, subtract another 1/3 or more for support troops....and you have what combat troops NATO has on the ground....does that concern you....it scares the shit out of me....

I agree with that. So the greater committment of NATO forces will have minimal effect upon the Taliban in terms of Taliban terrorism.

That would depend on how many NATO troops where available to hunt these scumbags down...while not forgetting holding the ground we have already firmly in our control....

Are the Taliban gaining strength or getting weaker? Has the ability of Afghanistan to toss the Taliban out increased or diminished?

It seems obvious that the Taliban is gaining strength and Afghanistans capabilities of successfully opposing the Taliban are diminishing.

Thus the need for more commitment from NATO.

Wich in turn means it that NATO's ability to secure the Afghan government seems to be failing. IE we are losing.

We used to measure taliban strentgh by the amount of operations they carried out....lots of talk about spring offensives....well spring is sprung over there....and much to everyones surprise it's another bust year...much like last year....sure bombing is up, by i think 30 to 40 % over last year...but it only takes a few men to carry out a bombing....long gone are the days like operation mudusa, where they took us on one on one....out in the open ....

still wait and see in the hemland district...where the brits are.

every day they get weaker and we get stronger.....this year another 3500 marines, more french troops ...they can't compete against those odds....they have a hard time recruiting combat loses, let alone increases in NATO strentgh when i say we i mean the Afgan government ...there is talk that the Afganis military will in the near future take over the capitol region....replacing NATO troops....this is a major step for them...alot of NATO countries are starting to panick, as they try and find room up north for thier troops, don't want thier boys in combat...did i say that out loud...anyways there is progress.

[Army Guy]

You want to believe it, go ahead; there's no limit to how far imagination can be stretched, as previous outlandish claimes (of WMD, ballistic missiles, alien invasions, etc) have demonstrated.

myata, believe what you want, regardless of what the numbers or math tell you, every time we go outside the wire it takes me about 15 mins to get geared up, and why do we get geared up, because we know it is not a matter of if we are going to see combat....but when in that trip...now it may turn out to be just a speeding car, or a few rounds from a machine gun....it still combat....i've been on to many convoys that have ended up with blood being shed on both sides....

So when you read about another one of our soldiers being brought home in a metal coffin, ask your self this....DOes NATO have to many troops in AFgan....would more troops on the ground save that kids life.....damn straight it would.....so is it all WMD, alien invasions....maybe to you, and some others....but not to those that live that 24 hours a day for 6, 7, 8 months at a time....no to us we have a job to do, one that was given to us by our government....and we will be doing it well after 2011 , how do we know that, because the Canadian people can not make up thier damn minds on what they want, and if they finally decide they can't be bothered to do anything about it.....

[myata]

DOes NATO have to many troops in AFgan....would more troops on the ground save that kids life.....damn straight it would.....

The best way to save ours, and everybody's lives, is to get out, fast (I mean of course, military force; not general assistance). It's not our business to fight in the other peoples's conflicts; nor is it to tell them which government is good for them; Canadians know that and sensed that somehow somewhere the nature of this mission has changed, seriously: from punishing the terrorists, which they reluctantly supported; to assisting the new government with development and training, with which Canadians, myself included, have no problem; to propping, and fighting on the side of, one faction in the internal conflict;

Trying to set them up with our model of how we think they should be has proven to be, over many years and missions, a bloody and very uncertain business.

[Army Guy]

The best way to save ours, and everybody's lives, is to get out, fast (I mean of course, military force; not general assistance).

like i said before, the both are linked and fused as one, military force needs to be there if assistance is to be delivered....

You mention save our lives, who are you refering to....

It's not our business to fight in the other peoples's conflicts; nor is it to tell them which government is good for them; Canadians know that and sensed that somehow somewhere the nature of this mission has changed, seriously:

Every conflict that Canada has been involved with exception to 1812, has been someone else's war or conflict...So what scares you about this mission ?

As for telling them what type of government to support thats plain bull poop....that is your opinion, not fact....

The mission has changed ? what does the Average Canadian know about this mission ?....they take thier info from the media, that rarely gets out of the camp, what info they do get is from DND, with all journalist present for daily briefs and yet read the papers the next day and not one paper gets in right....

Then there is our government that has screwed the whole keep canadians informed thing from the start....

The mission has not changed, it has always been the same...from the start to today....

Name just one aspect of the mission has changed....

There is none, just something that canadians made up to cover thier asses for abandoning us on the battle field....

so they can feel good about themselfs, while they watch another casket making it way down the highway of hero's ....while pretending to sob into napkins, So while the majority of Canadians don't support the mission, what have they done to remove our soldiers from the battle fields....NOTHING, so stop sobbing, stop whinning , stop beating your chests while shouting i don't support this mission....your paying the whole topic lip service, while lying to yourself, and our soldiers.....your actually doing more harm than good....

[WarBicycle]

The best way to save ours, and everybody's lives, is to get out, fast (I mean of course, military force; not general assistance).

You are obviously deficient in worldly wisdom; a strong military presence is what is preventing al-Qaeda and the Taliban from slaughtering our aid workers.

[myata]

like i said before, the both are linked and fused as one, military force needs to be there if assistance is to be delivered....

You mean, there's nobody it can be delivered to? After we blasted out the only government that stayed in place for any considerable time, since decades? That's exactly what I say: starting the cycle of fighting and instability, all over, right at the time the country seemed to have setteled on some level of stability wasn't smart; and maybe, wasn't necessary; and from the perspective of locals will cause them much pain; maybe, from their perspective, more pain than Taleban was causing them.. So who did we do it for, really?

Every conflict that Canada has been involved with exception to 1812, has been someone else's war or conflict...So what scares you about this mission ?

Funny you mentioned it... surely there's one big difference with that particular, 1812, case. Try to spot it...

As for the rest, there're many things people were doing in the 18-ies that we don't do now. It's called learning, i.e not stepping on the same rake, twice.

Then there is our government that has screwed the whole keep canadians informed thing from the start....

Absolutely agreed. The way that Kandahar mission was pulled in is shameful. There should have been a full discussion in the Parliament and the country.

Name just one aspect of the mission has changed....

Like going out in the field and blasting insurgents;

... what have they done to remove our soldiers from the battle fields....NOTHING, so stop sobbing, stop whinning , stop

Good point... Here's what I'll do. I'm not going to vote for the party that sent you there; or is keeping you there; that I'll do.

Edited April 25, 2008 by myata

[Peter F]

We are also told another story of what is happening; that Afghani's love freedom and democracy and voting. That Aghani's are really glad the Taliban are no longer running things. That the Afghan armed forces are effective, committed and loyal to the cause. That the Taliban are discredited amongst Afghani's and have very little support amongst Afghans, so much so that what strength the Taliban has is from foriegners.

You can't be pulled out. There's nobody willing to replace you. All our whining, sobbing, handwringing and heartbleeding cant change that. Even an election cant change that. So carry on. I hope 40 years from now (it seems thats how long it will take) you're endeavours are successfull and not an excercise in futility.

[White Doors]

You can't be pulled out. There's nobody willing to replace you. All our whining, sobbing, handwringing and heartbleeding cant change that. Even an election cant change that. So carry on. I hope 40 years from now (it seems thats how long it will take) you're endeavours are successfull and not an excercise in futility.

But the truth is, you and your ilk do not hope that. You hope it is a failure at the same time I know you hope that more Canadians do not die.

You are fervant in both of your convictions, but please be honest with yourself, you and Myata really do hope that it fails. So you can tut tut and have your "I told you so's" (except even on the far left, no one was against the UN sanctioned Afghanistan mission at first - but this wouldn't be the first time hypocricy was conveniently ignored by the far left - see the biggest argument for not going to Iraq "But there is no UN sanction to do so wahhhh"...)

Very good article in MacLeans this week about the progress in Afghanistan.

Recommended reading armyguy. Some reporters get it.

[Army Guy]

Great, so we all agree then, that "not" supporting the mission is really a waste of time, and will amount to nothing but more band width, and time on our hands....Maybe we could use that time to lobby our government for the equipment we need to save lives.....