Fitna The Movie

[August1991]

A Dutch politician, Geert Wilders, made and released a 16 minute video explaining his opinions of modern Islam. Dutch TV and other networks refused to show the video. So, he used LiveLeak to release it on the Internet.

LiveLeak now has this video to explain why it is no longer making the film available.

(You can find Geert Wilders' video on YouTube here.)

Here is the CBC's description of these events:

A Dutch politician has posted a graphic film on the internet warning the West about the teachings of Islam, as a Muslim group prepares to challenge the movie as a potential violation of hate speech laws.

Right-wing legislator Geert Wilders released the film Fitna — the Qur'anic term for "strife" — Thursday, despite warnings from the Dutch government that it could spark violent protests in Islamic countries similar to those held over cartoon caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad. Credits at the end of the film list Wilders as co-scriptwriter.

CBC

There is general fear that this video will provoke reactions similar to the publication of Danish cartoons.

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I watched Wilders' video and I disagree. I may be wrong but I think that unlike the cartoons - which were blasphemous of the Prophet - this video is not blasphemous. It does not ridicule Mohammed or Allah. Blasphemy to one is a chip on another's shoulder.

Indeed, this video is only shocking to western viewers and I have the impression that it is adroitly aimed to provoke westerners, not Muslims.

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I am no stranger to a situation where a single event can lead to radically different interpretations in different languages. In Canada, it happens often. Usually, each side sees the event its own way and goes off to talk about it or merely shrug its shoulders - oblivious to the other's incomprehension.

Edited March 29, 2008 by August1991

[Leafless]

Indeed, this video is only shocking to western viewers and I have the impression that it is adroitly aimed to provoke westerners, not Muslims.

Exploiting the emotions of Westerners, via cinema, focused on the horrific consequences of being attacked by an enemy with the theme being in favour of supporting Western ideologies from the onslaught of the attacker, is nothing new.

The only thing new, is that the enemy, (or supporters or culture) relating to modern day terrorism are living among us in many countries around the world (who support Western ideologies) including Canada in significant numbers.

Currently there is no winning formula to stop the antics of Islamic followers namel Muslims from violently protesting against anything they might consider offensive, outside of a total immigration ban, relating to Muslims from Islamic countries.

This of course does not support the concept modern day multiculturalism and has proven modern day multicuturalism should be given a second look, as cultures who bring with them their political baggage and foreign ideologies are creating dysfunctional countries and in turn world.

Edited March 29, 2008 by Leafless

[Shakeyhands]

All of the rednecks on a motorcycle forukm I frequent are up in arms about this too. Honestly, if they are up in arms about something being 'censored' its usually the right thing to do.

[DogOnPorch]

All of the rednecks on a motorcycle forukm I frequent are up in arms about this too. Honestly, if they are up in arms about something being 'censored' its usually the right thing to do.

Ditto on the rocket science forums. When pocket-protector nerds get upity, censorship is no doubt the right thing to do.

I watched Wilders' video and I disagree. I may be wrong but I think that unlike the cartoons - which were blasphemous of the Prophet - this video is not blasphemous. It does not ridicule Mohammed or Allah. Blasphemy to one is a chip on another's shoulder.

Indeed, this video is only shocking to western viewers and I have the impression that it is adroitly aimed to provoke westerners, not Muslims.

There's nothing 'new' in this 'film'. All the images are already present on the net. I hear though that Geert Wilders is in some hot water re: copyright violation for including some w/o permission. I agree it is more for the consumption of Western viewers who may have never been exposed to these shocking images. Glenn Beck's effort was much 'better'...

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God is a concept by which we measure our pain.

---John Lennon

Edited March 29, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[Regulus de Leo]

Excellent movie. Now they can't censor it. It's being spread all over the net and it can be downloaded from a number of sites.

They can't kill us all can they?

[Shakeyhands]

Ditto on the rocket science forums. When pocket-protector nerds get upity, censorship is no doubt the right thing to do.

Touche...

[jbg]

Excellent movie. Now they can't censor it. It's being spread all over the net and it can be downloaded from a number of sites.

They can't kill us all can they?

No. They do hate ou freedom, though, and want to regulate us and stifle it. They want submission. It is not about Israel. It's about all of us.

[WIP]

Ditto on the rocket science forums. When pocket-protector nerds get upity, censorship is no doubt the right thing to do.

There's nothing 'new' in this 'film'. All the images are already present on the net. I hear though that Geert Wilders is in some hot water re: copyright violation for including some w/o permission. I agree it is more for the consumption of Western viewers who may have never been exposed to these shocking images. Glenn Beck's effort was much 'better'...

------------------------------------------------------

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.

---John Lennon

Sure, there's nothing new in his film, but the most important story about Wilder's film is how governments in Europe, Australia, (Canada will probably be soon to follow), are joining in the condemnations of his film; and the second most important story is the dog that's not barking - all of the recent newswire stories about Wilder's and condemnations of him, never mention that several Islamic groups are calling for his murder and Wilders is under 24 hour police protection. It's pretty hard for Western apologists to make a case that his film is alarmist and Islam is a religion of peace when they are actively trying to kill him! And since Dutch film-maker Theo Van Gogh was murdered for making a documentary for Ayan Hirsi Ali, the threats have to be taken seriously.

Islamic and Arab leaders denounced a Dutch film Saturday that portrays Islam as a ticking time bomb aimed at the West, demanding international laws to prevent insults to religions. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hvjTyyT...jX5pEgD8VNDF8G0

Considering how far European politicians are willing to bend over to appease their Muslim minorities, I wonder if they will give in this time to the Muslim World's demands for international blasphemy laws?

[jbg]

Considering how far European politicians are willing to bend over to appease their Muslim minorities, I wonder if they will give in this time to the Muslim World's demands for international blasphemy laws?

I think that countries such as the US, with real democratic and pluralist traditions, should force fence-sitters to make a choice; either they are in the Western, democratic world or they want to retreat to pre-WW I traditions, including religious role in government, etc.

[Shakeyhands]

No. They do hate ou freedom, though, and want to regulate us and stifle it. They want submission. It is not about Israel. It's about all of us.

I always thought you were an intelligent man JBG, but to tout the "they hate our freedom" line?

[Leafless]

I always thought you were an intelligent man JBG, but to tout the "they hate our freedom" line?

How else would you call it?

Their culture was always stagnant because they refused to progress beyond their oppressive and violent religion.

But your right Shakey, there is more to it than "than they hate our freedom". They hate us because primarily of our cultural advancement.

I also know another culture who refused to progress beyond their obsolete language and as a result stagnated the cultural advancement of the entire country.

[DogOnPorch]

Sure, there's nothing new in his film, but the most important story about Wilder's film is how governments in Europe, Australia, (Canada will probably be soon to follow), are joining in the condemnations of his film; and the second most important story is the dog that's not barking - all of the recent newswire stories about Wilder's and condemnations of him, never mention that several Islamic groups are calling for his murder and Wilders is under 24 hour police protection. It's pretty hard for Western apologists to make a case that his film is alarmist and Islam is a religion of peace when they are actively trying to kill him! And since Dutch film-maker Theo Van Gogh was murdered for making a documentary for Ayan Hirsi Ali, the threats have to be taken seriously.

Islamic and Arab leaders denounced a Dutch film Saturday that portrays Islam as a ticking time bomb aimed at the West, demanding international laws to prevent insults to religions. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hvjTyyT...jX5pEgD8VNDF8G0

Considering how far European politicians are willing to bend over to appease their Muslim minorities, I wonder if they will give in this time to the Muslim World's demands for international blasphemy laws?

I realize that the hoopla here is more about the media rather than the message. Who will allow it? That's the question. Do you ban it to appease or do you allow it to exist under a larger banner known as freedom of expression/speech? We allow this and this to exist...oddly enough...without death threats and/or riots from "angry" Jews. I'm sure we could find even worse anti-Jewish material on the internet. What makes this special is that the threats of death and riots are potentially real...thus proving ol' Geert right, I suppose.

I do find it humorously ironic, however, that the cartoonist that drew Muhammed w/ turban bomb plans to sue Wilder for using it in his film.

That being said, the film is still just news clips we've pretty much all had access to before anyways (without public disapproval other than angry YouTube comments and taggings/flaggings for possible removal). Some news reports make it sound like Wilder set pen to paper and wrote an anti-Islamic script. No script involved other than his note at the end re: the telephone book.

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You're gonna hurt somone with that old shotgun. Hey! What's up, Doc?

---Buggs Bunny

Edited March 30, 2008 by DogOnPorch

[DogOnPorch]

Touche...

Angry nerds does bring up an interesting mental image. How would they riot? Whack us with slide-rules? Mentos and Diet Pepsi molotovs?

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Damn it, Jim! I'm a doctor not a (insert profession here)!

---Dr Leonard 'Bones' McCoy

[cybercoma]

I always thought you were an intelligent man JBG, but to tout the "they hate our freedom" line?

I always thought that line was ridiculous, but just now it hit me. They really do hate our freedom. They want everyone in the world to be submissive to Islam and will try to make it happen by any means necessary. There really isn't any difference between that and the radical Christians like you see in the Jesus Camp documentary, but the Muslim are a lot more ready to use brutal violence to get their way.

[jbg]

I always thought you were an intelligent man JBG, but to tout the "they hate our freedom" line?

If they didn't "hate our freedom" they'd debate the bomb-headed Mohamed cartoons and this latest film rather than engage in violence and threats of violence. Please, reign in your knee-jerk hatred of the speaker of that line.

[guyser]

If they didn't "hate our freedom" they'd debate the bomb-headed Mohamed cartoons and this latest film rather than engage in violence and threats of violence. Please, reign in your knee-jerk hatred of the speaker of that line.

....and anti-abortionists would debate too instead of shooting Doctors.

Do they hate their own freedom?

[jbg]

....and anti-abortionists would debate too instead of shooting Doctors.

Do they hate their own freedom?

Both radical Islamists and violent anti-abortionists are low-lifes. It seems that "anti-abortion murder" is an inherently hypocritical act.

[Regulus de Leo]

Both radical Islamists and violent anti-abortionists are low-lifes. It seems that "anti-abortion murder" is an inherently hypocritical act.

Violent anti-abortionists have killed a handful of doctors over the last 3 decades. Violent Islamists kill dozens of people daily. Trying to hold the two groups up for comparison is ludicrous.

[WestViking]

Violent anti-abortionists have killed a handful of doctors over the last 3 decades. Violent Islamists kill dozens of people daily. Trying to hold the two groups up for comparison is ludicrous.

I have no quarrel with Muslims. I have a problem with terrorists and I do not care what beliefs they claim to espouse.

[WIP]

I always thought that line was ridiculous, but just now it hit me. They really do hate our freedom. They want everyone in the world to be submissive to Islam and will try to make it happen by any means necessary. There really isn't any difference between that and the radical Christians like you see in the Jesus Camp documentary, but the Muslim are a lot more ready to use brutal violence to get their way.

I became a little pessimistic about the odds of Islam being modernized when I read a little factoid in a biography of Sayyid Qutb, the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood and the inspiration for many Islamic fundamentalists. Qutb came from a wealthy Egyptian family and lived in the United States during the late 1940's. It appears that he was offended by materialism, individual freedom, the "licentiousness" of American women and the "animal-like" mixing of the sexes! And this was in 1940, I guess he really would have blown a gasket if he stayed in America through the 60's and the sexual revolution! Qutb's successors don't appear to be any more open to modernizing their religion.

But there are Christian nationalists who are trying to emulate Islam's growing power and influence. It's fascinating that the organizers of Jesus Camp would cite Hamas and Hezbollah training camps as an excuse to brainwash children into becoming the Christian version of jihad warriors.

[WIP]

Violent anti-abortionists have killed a handful of doctors over the last 3 decades. Violent Islamists kill dozens of people daily. Trying to hold the two groups up for comparison is ludicrous.

I used to hear these we're-still-not-as-bad-as-they-are arguments all the time when I was on an American conservative forum. Is it all a matter of numbers? As long as Muslims kill lots of people, it's okay to kill a few abortion doctors and nurses!

[jbg]

I used to hear these we're-still-not-as-bad-as-they-are arguments all the time when I was on an American conservative forum. Is it all a matter of numbers? As long as Muslims kill lots of people, it's okay to kill a few abortion doctors and nurses!

I never made that argument.

[guyser]

Violent anti-abortionists have killed a handful of doctors over the last 3 decades. Violent Islamists kill dozens of people daily. Trying to hold the two groups up for comparison is ludicrous.

Zing right over the top.

[WIP]

Zing right over the top.

So this is some sort of utilitarian argument! It's okay to take the law into your own hands as long as you only kill a few abortion doctors, nurses and clinic support staff. And I don't want to go to far down the abortion road, but you guys keep talking about abortion doctors as if they are the only ones who have been killed! And take note of the fact that the numbers would have been much higher if the aggressors were successful in all of their attacks:

Since 1993, seven clinic workers – including three doctors, two clinic employees, a clinic escort, and a security guard – have been murdered in the United States.1 Seventeen attempted murders have also occurred since 1991.2 In fact, opponents of choice have directed more than 5,600 reported acts of violence against abortion providers since 1977, including bombings, arsons, death threats, kidnappings, and assaults, as well as more than 132,000 reported acts of disruption, including bomb threats and harassing calls.3

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/assets/fil...on-Violence.pdf

The common thread between pro-life activists and Islamic extremists is that each side has propagandists who advocate and try to incite mob violence. The mullahs who whip up the crowds in Palestine know that not every member of their congregation is going to become a jihad warrior, but they can count on a few joining terrorist training camps. Many churches get their crowds worked up with a doctrine that a fertilized egg is a human being with a soul, and stopping embryos and fetuses from coming to term is the same as murder. After a few sermons about the "holocaust of the unborn", some are moved to join groups like Operation Rescue, which protests at abortion clinics but officially denies connection to criminal acts committed against clinics. When a member of Operation Rescue is fully convinced by the rhetoric, that abortion doctors are murderers and no one is doing anything about it, they may be moved to take action, such as James Kopp - the killer of Dr. Bernard Slepian. And ofcourse Operation Rescue denies culpability because the assailant acted alone.........even though he was answering the call to take action against the murderers of unborn fetuses. The activists who incite violence, hide in the shadows and call these random acts of violence carried out by a tiny minority of extremists. To me, that sounds like the same pattern of thinking regardless of what the numbers are. Remember, with the ramped up rhetoric coming out of right wing churches that demonize everyone they consider unchristian, those numbers can only go up.

[guyser]

The common thread between pro-life activists and Islamic extremists is that each side has propagandists who advocate and try to incite mob violence. The mullahs who whip up the crowds in Palestine know that not every member of their congregation is going to become a jihad warrior, but they can count on a few joining terrorist training camps. Many churches get their crowds worked up with a doctrine that a fertilized egg is a human being with a soul, and stopping embryos and fetuses from coming to term is the same as murder. After a few sermons about the "holocaust of the unborn", some are moved to join groups like Operation Rescue, which protests at abortion clinics but officially denies connection to criminal acts committed against clinics. When a member of Operation Rescue is fully convinced by the rhetoric, that abortion doctors are murderers and no one is doing anything about it, they may be moved to take action, such as James Kopp - the killer of Dr. Bernard Slepian. And ofcourse Operation Rescue denies culpability because the assailant acted alone.........even though he was answering the call to take action against the murderers of unborn fetuses. The activists who incite violence, hide in the shadows and call these random acts of violence carried out by a tiny minority of extremists. To me, that sounds like the same pattern of thinking regardless of what the numbers are. Remember, with the ramped up rhetoric coming out of right wing churches that demonize everyone they consider unchristian, those numbers can only go up.

Somebody gets it.