Fitna The Movie

[cybercoma]

But there are Christian nationalists who are trying to emulate Islam's growing power and influence. It's fascinating that the organizers of Jesus Camp would cite Hamas and Hezbollah training camps as an excuse to brainwash children into becoming the Christian version of jihad warriors.

They clearly hate freedom as well.

[jbg]

Violent anti-abortionists have killed a handful of doctors over the last 3 decades. Violent Islamists kill dozens of people daily. Trying to hold the two groups up for comparison is ludicrous.

"I'm a dinner jacket" a/k/a Ahmenejad (sp), a notorious Jew-hater, spoke at Columbia University in New York City. The Jewish students and NYC's Jewish professionals chose not to riot or for that matter to hurt or kill anybody. What makes the Muslims different?

[cybercoma]

about this video though... it's nice to see that a movie condemning Islamic violence is responded to with threats of violence.

Edited April 1, 2008 by cybercoma

[jbg]

about this video though... it's nice to see that a movie condemning Islamic violence is responded to with threats of violence.

Par for the course, where, while the religion may have had peaceful or constructive interludes, it is now again a religion that spreads by the sword (or bomb).

[cybercoma]

That is, until the moderates decide enough is a enough and stand up for the religion that's been hijacked by violence and fascism. Which was the whole point of the movie, next thing you know there's threats of violence and the moderates are silent. Incredible.

[jbg]

That is, until the moderates decide enough is a enough and stand up for the religion that's been hijacked by violence and fascism. Which was the whole point of the movie, next thing you know there's threats of violence and the moderates are silent. Incredible.

The problem is that, opposite of Christianity and Judaism, the "moderates" are the fringe and the "fascists" or "radicals" are the mainstream, among Muslims.

[guyser]

The problem is that, opposite of Christianity and Judaism, the "moderates" are the fringe and the "fascists" or "radicals" are the mainstream, among Muslims.

BS and you know it.

[cybercoma]

The problem is that, opposite of Christianity and Judaism, the "moderates" are the fringe and the "fascists" or "radicals" are the mainstream, among Muslims.

Do you have something to show for this statement? I mean, how would this even be measured?

[jbg]

Do you have something to show for this statement? I mean, how would this even be measured?

This became obvious on September 11, 2001 when the Muslim community, until called upon by Western public officials, did not protest the massacre of innocent Westerners.

[WIP]

The problem is that, opposite of Christianity and Judaism, the "moderates" are the fringe and the "fascists" or "radicals" are the mainstream, among Muslims.

Christianity in the U.S. is becoming less moderate and increasingly strident in an effort to control politics and culture. And there are apocalyptic preachers who are preaching that the end-time struggle is between Christianity and Islam (it used to be communism), so we may live to see Christianity become as aggressive and belligerent as Islam.

[jbg]

Christianity in the U.S. is becoming less moderate and increasingly strident in an effort to control politics and culture. And there are apocalyptic preachers who are preaching that the end-time struggle is between Christianity and Islam (it used to be communism), so we may live to see Christianity become as aggressive and belligerent as Islam.

I'm sorry, Christians (and I'm NOT a Christian) don't:

1. Kill hundreds to try to kill one politician (the two attempts on Bhutto's life);
   
2. Slam planes into buildings to kill thousands; or
   
3. Dump wheelchair-bound people off ships because of their religion (Klinghoffer).
   

[WIP]

I'm sorry, Christians (and I'm NOT a Christian) don't:

1. Kill hundreds to try to kill one politician (the two attempts on Bhutto's life);
   
2. Slam planes into buildings to kill thousands; or
   
3. Dump wheelchair-bound people off ships because of their religion (Klinghoffer).
   

I'm not going to make excuses for terrorists, but some mention has to be made of the fact that terrorism is a common form of asymmetrical warfare. The Iraqi insurgents don't have the weapons to take the Americans on directly, so they place landmines and roadside bombs to attack armoured convoys. Since religion plays such a key role in the Bush Whitehouse and the military, Christian nationalism created the doctrine of American Exceptionalism that has led the U.S. on a disastrous mission of global domination, and has inspired a lot of the anti-american resentment that's expressed all over the world.

[cybercoma]

This became obvious on September 11, 2001 when the Muslim community, until called upon by Western public officials, did not protest the massacre of innocent Westerners.

From your own obvservations. I remember distinctly that the muslim community in Canada was outraged.

[guyser]

I'm sorry, Christians (and I'm NOT a Christian) don't:

1. Dump wheelchair-bound people off ships because of their religion (Klinghoffer).
   

No only cops in Florida do. They were christian.

[AngusThermopyle]

QUOTE(jbg @ Apr 1 2008, 09:10 PM) *

I'm sorry, Christians (and I'm NOT a Christian) don't:

1. Dump wheelchair-bound people off ships because of their religion (Klinghoffer).

No only cops in Florida do. They were christian.

Not sure where you're going with this one. Leon Klinghoffer was a passenger on board the Achille Lauro (sp?) with his wife. I think it was in 85. Palestinians seized the ship and shot Klinghoffer in the chest and head then forced crew members to dump the body and wheelchair overboard. Unless the Palestinians are recruiting Christian cops from Florida as cohorts I don't see the point you are making.

[guyser]

Not sure where you're going with this one.

I am aware of the history on Klinghoffer. My point was the simplistic statement that Muslims do so much bad and christians dont do anything bad. Patently false.

I certainly dont put them on par, but one cannot deny the actions of one and not the other .

[AngusThermopyle]

I certainly dont put them on par, but one cannot deny the actions of one and not the other .

Nope, not me, I would never deny that, Christians can be dicks and assholes too.

[jbg]

I certainly dont put them on par, but one cannot deny the actions of one and not the other .

I made the point that I did precisely because I am not Christian. Christians, in the past, have been guilty of some patent barbarity. The fact is that they have improved; Muslims have, if anything, become more barbarous over time.

[Brain Candy]

I dont think this wave of immigration is consciously driven by vengeance, nor is it necessarily connected to terrorism. But this guy deserves a round of applause, the muslims that are flooding into parts of europe are bad for the culture, crime rate and economy of these countries. Anyone who doesnt agree with at least this either has selfish motivations or has their mind polluted with multicultural dogma.

Poorer people from eastern europe are also a problem but currently not quite as big it seems.

Muslims in Sweden (Strangers in a Strange Land):

Edited April 3, 2008 by Brain Candy

[WIP]

I made the point that I did precisely because I am not Christian. Christians, in the past, have been guilty of some patent barbarity. The fact is that they have improved; Muslims have, if anything, become more barbarous over time.

From what I am observing of this new fundamentalist Christianity that has become a controlling political force in the U.S., I would argue that Christianity is regressing to a more primitive state, and it's just a matter of time before the barbarism returns. America has created a Christian ethos that combines religion with nationalistic values of patriotism, prosperity, and even white nationalism. The most influential Christian leaders in the U.S. are teaching their flocks to distrust science and all knowledge that doesn't fit with their Christian worldview. So even the smart kids from good Christian families go to bible colleges or even law school, rather than become biologists, geologists, physicists, neuroscientists etc., where they will be contaminated with the teaching of evolution.

Fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity have many common objectives such as a belief that they have the exclusive religion for worshipping God, and eventually, everyone in the world must convert to the one true faith. It's not hard to see how this is a recipe for never-ending war.

There are two strains of dangerous theologies coming from U.S. style Christianity: one is Dominionism, that teaches Christians that they must take the entire world for Christ before the 2nd Coming and all of the apocalyptic prophecies are fulfilled; and the other is Premillenialism, which teaches that the Apocalypse, Rapture and 2nd Coming will occur very soon, and believers can do nothing to avert nuclear war, ecological disasters and famines that will soon kill off three quarters of the world's population. But the believers are encouraged to see all bad news as a good thing because it is interpreted as another sign that Judgement Day will soon arrive. I saw this first-hand when the Israeli-Hezbollah war was going on - all of the premillenial Christians on the conservative forum I was in, were all excited about it and hoping it would blow up into a full scale MiddleEast war that would be the sign that the end times had arrived. All you need is a few people with irrational apocalyptic beliefs in charge of nuclear weapons and it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy; except that just like all previous failed predictions about the 2nd Coming, Jesus won't be flying down to save us from annihilation this time either. If we're going to save the world from disaster, we have to do it ourselves.

And that makes it hard to plan a strategy of dealing with Islam. If it is possible to reform Islam so that Muslims can accept secular values, it's not going to happen when the church leaders in America and Europe are trying to revive Christian nationalism and playing on the fears of being overrun by Islam. One question that can't be answered right now is how many of the world's Muslims really want to live under Islamic government, where religion dominates all aspects of life and you can be beaten by the religious police squad for not attending the mosque, shaving your beard or in the case of women - not being completely shrouded in a black sackcloth. But any reform movements so far are being hamstrung by the War in Iraq and rhetoric about converting Muslims to Christianity.

[jbg]

From what I am observing of this new fundamentalist Christianity that has become a controlling political force in the U.S., I would argue that Christianity is regressing to a more primitive state, and it's just a matter of time before the barbarism returns. America has created a Christian ethos that combines religion with nationalistic values of patriotism, prosperity, and even white nationalism.

The US has always been a prosperous country and, compared to most countries in the world, a brassily patriotic one. Is that dangerous?

The most influential Christian leaders in the U.S. are teaching their flocks to distrust science and all knowledge that doesn't fit with their Christian worldview. So even the smart kids from good Christian families go to bible colleges or even law school, rather than become biologists, geologists, physicists, neuroscientists etc., where they will be contaminated with the teaching of evolution.

I had plenty of smart Christian friends at Cornell and B.U. Law School.

Fundamentalist Islam and fundamentalist Christianity have many common objectives such as a belief that they have the exclusive religion for worshipping God, and eventually, everyone in the world must convert to the one true faith. It's not hard to see how this is a recipe for never-ending war.

The US has always been and will always be an open society. My people, the Jews, have always played a key part in this "fundamentalist Christian" society.

There are two strains of dangerous theologies coming from U.S. style Christianity: one is Dominionism, that teaches Christians that they must take the entire world for Christ before the 2nd Coming and all of the apocalyptic prophecies are fulfilled; and the other is Premillenialism, which teaches that the Apocalypse, Rapture and 2nd Coming will occur very soon, and believers can do nothing to avert nuclear war, ecological disasters and famines that will soon kill off three quarters of the world's population.

I live in the US. I haven't heard of any of these "movements".

You should get out more, maybe see some of the US, unless your hatred of the US is so pervasive that you can't.

[scribblet]

There are two strains of dangerous theologies coming from U.S. style Christianity: one is Dominionism, that teaches Christians that they must take the entire world for Christ before the 2nd Coming and all of the apocalyptic prophecies are fulfilled; and the other is Premillenialism, which teaches that the Apocalypse, Rapture and 2nd Coming will occur very soon, and believers can do nothing to avert nuclear war, ecological disasters and famines that will soon kill off three quarters of the world's population.

:lol: Toto I'm not in Kansas anymore

[WIP]

The US has always been a prosperous country and, compared to most countries in the world, a brassily patriotic one. Is that dangerous?

Yes! Yes it is as a matter of fact. There is a thin line between patriotism and nationalism. The wdespread belief in the doctrine of American Exceptionalism was used by Neoconservatives and their ideological allies to try to ensure American supremacism in global affairs after the demise of the Soviet Union. With the Bush Administration, this nationalistic arrogance reached the breaking point when they decided that America could step in and impose regime change anywhere they wished regardless of what allies, adversaries and neighbouring states wanted.

And trying to topple governments is one thing, but the backstory that's gone virtually unnoticed behind the Iraq and Afganistan wars, is that since the fall of the Soviet Union, the U.S. has tried to turn former Soviet republics into client states. Especially the ones with oil reserves. America is trying to develop the oil fields in Kazahkstan, Azerbaijan, and Uzbekistan and create a secure zone to build pipelines and make it available for the U.S. market.

With all of the talk about the dangers of radical Islam, don't you find it strange that the U.S. would resume an adversarial relationship with the only major non-Muslim state in Central Asia? It seems to indicate that these wars are more about oil and other natural resources than they are about fighting Bin Laden or Al Qaeda!

I had plenty of smart Christian friends at Cornell and B.U. Law School.

I did mention that smart kids from fundamentalist families are encouraged to practise law rather than seek careers in scientific fields, so your friends in law school aren't that unusual. The Christian colleges like O.R.U., Pat Robertson's Regent University and this new Patrick Henry University that was created for home-schooled fundamentalist kids have little else besides theology and law. Considering that their patrons are trying to rewrite the U.S. constitution and get their people on the SCOTUS, I guess it's not surprising that they are so keenly interested in law degrees!

And, the exception doesn't prove the rule! In general, the more educated a person is, the less superstitious and religious they are. People in my social group, who have little or no post-secondary education, are usually the most religious and the most likely to believe in phenomena like ghosts, UFO's and astrology - so I am an exception from the other side. When I was younger, I joined the local chapter of the Royal Astronomical Society primarily because very few of the people I interact with on a daily basis are interested in anything connected with science. And I noticed quickly that I was the only member of the local chapter working a blue-collar job. Almost everyone else was either a teacher or a student, or a professional with some sort of degree.

The US has always been and will always be an open society. My people, the Jews, have always played a key part in this "fundamentalist Christian" society.

I'm afraid your people have only been valued since the dispensational interpretation of scripture became a dominant force in America. This doctrine of successive and separate covenants recognizes the covenant with Israel as still in effect - at least for observing Jews. You may have noticed that mainstream Protestant and Catholic theology which follows the traditional interpretation of Supersessionalism, or Replacement Theology, teach that all of the covenants with Israel were scrapped and re-applied to the Church - and that's why traditional Christianity was so ruthless in trying to eradicate the Jews. Practising Jews were a threat to the legitimacy of Christian theology.

Now, back to those pre-millenialists: you might want to reconsider how good this friendship between Christian Zionism and Judaism really is. Last year, John Hagee, one of the leading Christian Zionists, got rapped by almost all of his televangelist compatriots for stating that Jews could be saved through keeping the Mosaic Law. Most Christian Zionists may believe God still has a covenant with Israel, but when pushed, they have to concede that Jews need to convert in order to be saved. They see the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy, but if you read the popular books on prophecy interpretation you'll soon find out that they see Israel destroyed in the battle of Armageddon, with two thirds of the people massacred and the only survivors being the ones who finally convert to Christianity. So rather than being friends of the Jews, the Christian Zionists want the Jews gathered together in Israel so that they can be sacrificed in the upcoming WWIII and fulfill their interpretation of prophecy. Some friends! They have financed and supported the most radical Zionist groups who build settlements in occupied territories that are difficult for the state of Israel to defend. They are fanning the flames of war in the MiddleEast, and they will see the destruction of Israel as the Battle of Armageddon and climb up on their roofs to await the 2nd Coming of Jesus! http://www.theocracywatch.org/christian_zionism.htm

I live in the US. I haven't heard of any of these "movements".

Here they are: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/...ain524268.shtml http://www.cfoic.com/ http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4951.htm

You should get out more, maybe see some of the US, unless your hatred of the US is so pervasive that you can't.

My mother is from Michigan and I had dual citizenship until I decided I was staying in Canada. All of my relatives on my mother's side live in the U.S., so I am tuned in to what goes on in America.

[jbg]

Yes! Yes it is as a matter of fact. There is a thin line between patriotism and nationalism. The wdespread belief in the doctrine of American Exceptionalism was used by Neoconservatives and their ideological allies to try to ensure American supremacism in global affairs after the demise of the Soviet Union.

And you truly don't think that a country that went from a fragile, disease ridden dot on the Virginia shore in 1607 to a powerhouse nation by 1917 (needed to save her "mother" country) is exceptional? This is a country that integrated penniless immigrants from throughout the world, many of whom wanted simply the freedom to worship and work as they pleased. Even the black slaves who came involuntarily are still here. Did they go back to Africa? I am not a neo-conservative or any kind of conservative, but I truly believe that the US is an exceptional country.

With the Bush Administration, this nationalistic arrogance reached the breaking point when they decided that America could step in and impose regime change anywhere they wished regardless of what allies, adversaries and neighbouring states wanted.

Wouldn't "regime change" come as a relief to Zimbabweans who have tried to elect out a government and are faced with a President that doesn't want to yield opulent palaces. Should be re-install thugs like Tojo and Hitler to rule over Japan and Germany because the likes of you are squeamish about "regime change".

And trying to topple governments is one thing, but the backstory that's gone virtually unnoticed behind the Iraq and Afganistan wars, is that since the fall of the Soviet Union, the U.S. has tried to turn former Soviet republics into client states. Especially the ones with oil reserves. America is trying to develop the oil fields in Kazahkstan, Azerbaijan, and Uzbekistan and create a secure zone to build pipelines and make it available for the U.S. market.

And that's a bad thing?

The Christian colleges like O.R.U., Pat Robertson's Regent University and this new Patrick Henry University that was created for home-schooled fundamentalist kids have little else besides theology and law. Considering that their patrons are trying to rewrite the U.S. constitution and get their people on the SCOTUS, I guess it's not surprising that they are so keenly interested in law degrees!

Do you have any idea what the amending formula is for the US Constitution? A bunch of religious fanatics are going to get control of 2/3 of the House and Senate and 3/4 of the States?

I'm afraid your people have only been valued since the dispensational interpretation of scripture became a dominant force in America. This doctrine of successive and separate covenants recognizes the covenant with Israel as still in effect - at least for observing Jews. You may have noticed that mainstream Protestant and Catholic theology which follows the traditional interpretation of Supersessionalism, or Replacement Theology, teach that all of the covenants with Israel were scrapped and re-applied to the Church - and that's why traditional Christianity was so ruthless in trying to eradicate the Jews. Practising Jews were a threat to the legitimacy of Christian theology.

I've never run into a Supersessionalist or Replacement Theologian on my way to or from work. Somehow they don't scare me.

Now, back to those pre-millenialists: you might want to reconsider how good this friendship between Christian Zionism and Judaism really is. Last year, John Hagee, one of the leading Christian Zionists, got rapped by almost all of his televangelist compatriots for stating that Jews could be saved through keeping the Mosaic Law. Most Christian Zionists may believe God still has a covenant with Israel, but when pushed, they have to concede that Jews need to convert in order to be saved.

Anne Coulter does not speak for all Christians.

They see the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy, but if you read the popular books on prophecy interpretation you'll soon find out that they see Israel destroyed in the battle of Armageddon, with two thirds of the people massacred and the only survivors being the ones who finally convert to Christianity. So rather than being friends of the Jews, the Christian Zionists want the Jews gathered together in Israel so that they can be sacrificed in the upcoming WWIII and fulfill their interpretation of prophecy. Some friends! They have financed and supported the most radical Zionist groups who build settlements in occupied territories that are difficult for the state of Israel to defend. They are fanning the flames of war in the MiddleEast, and they will see the destruction of Israel as the Battle of Armageddon and climb up on their roofs to await the 2nd Coming of Jesus! http://www.theocracywatch.org/christian_zionism.htm

Despite your bizarre interpretation. Jews, being 1.9% of the US population and about 0.2% of the world population, do need allies.

My mother is from Michigan and I had dual citizenship until I decided I was staying in Canada. All of my relatives on my mother's side live in the U.S., so I am tuned in to what goes on in America.

Apparently your view of what goes on here is rather distorted, almost to a pathological extent. Edited April 5, 2008 by jbg

[WIP]

And you truly don't think that a country that went from a fragile, disease ridden dot on the Virginia shore in 1607 to a powerhouse nation by 1917 (needed to save her "mother" country) is exceptional? This is a country that integrated penniless immigrants from throughout the world, many of whom wanted simply the freedom to worship and work as they pleased. Even the black slaves who came involuntarily are still here. Did they go back to Africa? I am not a neo-conservative or any kind of conservative, but I truly believe that the US is an exceptional country.

And do you see how your countrymen have been manipulated by that appeal to patriotic nationalism? Remember, nationalism is an emotional response, not a rational decision! So when a nation is inspired to go to war and a weak-kneed Congress is cowed into giving the President a blank cheque to carry out foreign wars because they are afraid of appearing unpatriotic, then flag-waving patriotic feelings lead to dangerous impulsive decisions!

How long will America be able to do the chest-thumping "we're no. !" The 20th Century was the Age of America as the dominant worldpower. America's greatness was largely based on an economy built around oil and gas energy and related manufacturing. America is losing its manufacturing base and every year since 1973, it has had to import oil from foreign sources. Most of the world's oil is in chaotic and hostile nations, so that imported oil is going to keep on getting more expensive, and we are likely going to see a dangerous 21st Century where low cost manufacturing and an emphasis on science and engineering make China and India the next world powers. And part of America's demise will be brought about by a nation that values lawyers more than scientists. Fundamentalist hostility to science is a contributing factor in the decline. And scary times are ahead:

Freeman believes this trend could soon threaten American technological competitiveness, especially as large developing countries like China and India harness their growing scientific and engineering expertise to their enormous, low-wage labor forces. The outsourcing of technical jobs, he warns, foreshadows the displacements American workers will likely face in coming years.

The source of America’s vulnerability, Freeman argues, lies in numbers. In 1970 more than half of the world’s science and engineering doctorates came from American universities, but now other countries have caught up. In 2001 the European Union (EU) granted 40 percent more science and engineering Ph.D.s than the United States, and by 2010 will produce nearly twice as many. China’s gains are even more striking. In 1975 the number of Chinese doctorates was negligible; but by 2003, the country had graduated 13,000 Ph.D.s — 70 percent of them in science and engineering. China is expected to surpass the United States in numbers of science and engineering doctorates by 2010. At the college level, statistics show a waning interest among U.S. students in science-related careers; in 2000, only 17 percent of all bachelor degrees in the United States were in natural sciences and engineering, compared to a world average of 27 percent and a Chinese average of 52 percent.

http://harvardmagazine.com/2005/11/overseas-insourcing.html

Wouldn't "regime change" come as a relief to Zimbabweans who have tried to elect out a government and are faced with a President that doesn't want to yield opulent palaces. Should be re-install thugs like Tojo and Hitler to rule over Japan and Germany because the likes of you are squeamish about "regime change".

Well then, what's holding up regime change in Zimbabwe? For starters, there's no oil and the U.S. Military has been stretched to the breaking point, so there is nothing left to offer regime change there or in higher security priorities like Iran, North Korea or Pakistan. This one has broke the bank and a nation drowning in debt will have no choice but to make a strategic retreat from global commitments.

Do you have any idea what the amending formula is for the US Constitution? A bunch of religious fanatics are going to get control of 2/3 of the House and Senate and 3/4 of the States?

And that's why amending the Constitution is so difficult. Remember what happened to the Equal Rights Amendment - it was sailing along and considered a sure thing until it stalled out three states short of ratification. But it's the judges who interpret the law. Are faith-based initiatives constitutional? Not according to every independent legal analyst who's looked at this pandering to fundamentalists by the Bush Administration; but the SCOTUS is in no hurry to hear any of the constitutional challenges to this state-sponsoring of approved religious organizations.

I've never run into a Supersessionalist or Replacement Theologian on my way to or from work. Somehow they don't scare me.

Anne Coulter does not speak for all Christians.

Most Christians don't learn enough about their own creeds to explain them to others even if they want to! In a way, this is what keeps the peace in a multi-faith society. The true believers who are really into their religion are the ones who start the arguments.

Replacement theology is not part of Christian Zionism or premillenialist interpretations of prophecy. This is the traditional Catholic and Protestant understanding that the covenant with Israel ended when a new covenant was established when the Christian Church began, and that's why the Catholic Church and the mainline Protestant churches were historically hostile to Jews and only started reforming their antisemitic practises after the Holocaust.

Despite your bizarre interpretation. Jews, being 1.9% of the US population and about 0.2% of the world population, do need allies.

Right, but you should have some awareness of the motives of your allies. The Christian Zionists who buy the Late Great Planet Earth and all of those Left Behind books see Israel going up in flames in the apocalyptic Battle of Armageddon. And they are against virtually all plans to redraw Israeli boundaries and attempt peace agreements, so they support the Israeli politicians who refuse to consider land-for-peace deals.

In America, acceptance of Jews didn't really take hold until after the modern state of Israel was interpreted as an important fulfillment of bible prophecy and increased the acceptance of Dispensationalism.

Apparently your view of what goes on here is rather distorted, almost to a pathological extent.

Well then, you are not much different than the neoconservatives you criticize! Cheerleaders are not always good friends! Friends have to say when they believe you are making mistakes. And the rush to war has precipitated the decline of the American Empire and will clear the stage for China and other actors to fight for global supremacy. Considering the fact that Canada is dependent on the U.S. economy and depends on the U.S. for defense, the 21st Century is going to be bad for us too. Most Canadians who you interpret as being antiAmerican just wish that America had been smart enough to start moving away from an oil-based economy instead of enriching Arabian robber-barons and starting wars to try to secure foreign oil supplies.