Cost of the war

[Topaz]

In question period today, it ws revealed that the Harper government is already 1 BILLION $$ over budget on the Afghanistan war. I, myself think that this war is going to cost Canadians alot more before we are done. How high are you willing for your taxes to go up and up to pay for this war?? The Americans in Iraq are now realizing that the longer they stay in Iraq they longer the Iraqis are not holding their own and I heard someone say the US should leave Iraq very soon and let the Iraqis stand on their own and go to Afghanistan.

[Wilber]

Define "over budget".

[Borg]

In question period today, it ws revealed that the Harper government is already 1 BILLION $$ over budget on the Afghanistan war. I, myself think that this war is going to cost Canadians alot more before we are done. How high are you willing for your taxes to go up and up to pay for this war?? The Americans in Iraq are now realizing that the longer they stay in Iraq they longer the Iraqis are not holding their own and I heard someone say the US should leave Iraq very soon and let the Iraqis stand on their own and go to Afghanistan.

Heck I do not hear any screaming over the "over budget" or expenditures that are even more hopeless.

Examples - Firearms laws and donations of money to corrupt African government.

War is expensive. Giving money to hopeless causes is expensive.

You want change?

Run for a seat in government.

Borg

[Wild Bill]

In question period today, it ws revealed that the Harper government is already 1 BILLION $$ over budget on the Afghanistan war. I, myself think that this war is going to cost Canadians alot more before we are done. How high are you willing for your taxes to go up and up to pay for this war?? The Americans in Iraq are now realizing that the longer they stay in Iraq they longer the Iraqis are not holding their own and I heard someone say the US should leave Iraq very soon and let the Iraqis stand on their own and go to Afghanistan.

Wars are rarely subject to a budget. The most expensive army is the one that turns out 2nd best!

Also, you have to measure the cost of failure versus the cost of fighting. If the cost of a free Afghanistan is too high then we shouldn't contribute a penny or a drop of blood. We should let them be, sitting back and watching as their women are banned from education and treated like slaves. Fundamentalist warlords will run training camps to export terrorism around the globe.

Meanwhile, we can be proud that we care more about money!

[Drea]

But that is not the original reason for being there!

OIL PIPELINE.

This is why Russia was in there -- or do you think those Russians were all concerned about women's rights?

FFS, I say get the hell out of the middle east entirely. Too bad for Isreal, it's her fault for moving to such a lousy neighbourhood, perhaps she should just move away -- she could have the northern part of Ontario... plenty of fresh water, farmland, ocean ports (won't be long till they are open all year!).

Why are the big bringers of freedom democracy and equality not in North Korea?

Clue Bat says "because they have no oil".

[Wild Bill]

But that is not the original reason for being there!

OIL PIPELINE.

This is why Russia was in there -- or do you think those Russians were all concerned about women's rights?

FFS, I say get the hell out of the middle east entirely. Too bad for Isreal, it's her fault for moving to such a lousy neighbourhood, perhaps she should just move away -- she could have the northern part of Ontario... plenty of fresh water, farmland, ocean ports (won't be long till they are open all year!).

Why are the big bringers of freedom democracy and equality not in North Korea?

Clue Bat says "because they have no oil".

Drea, do you seriously suggest that the potential losses involved with an invasion of North Korea would be anywhere near as low as what we're experiencing in Afghanistan?

There is only one reason worth attacking North Korea. If they develop nuclear capability of blowing up their neighbours!

Of course, at that point whoever is in the White House will have to decide if he really cares about the lives of those neighbours. America has paid a lot of blood these past hundred years to free OTHER people! People who afterwards tended to spit on them in return. I could understand if they decided to sit one out.

I'm not sure if you're right with your point about the oil pipeline. I AM sure that as gas prices go higher and higher this summer the public mood is much more likely to turn against OPEC than Uncle Sam! When people are hurting they demand their governments do something. If doubling our commitment to eradicate the Taliban could be argued to mean a return to gas under $1/litre I think you would be surprised how many of our fellow citizens would cheerfully vote in a particular party! I'm not saying they should, just that they would.

If gas hits $1.50 this summer as some are predicting, pay attention to what folks around you are talking about. I don't want to be right but I think I will be.

[Wild Bill]

This is a link to a book and a tv documentary about how we got into Afghanistan. Perhaps some might find it interesting.

http://tvguide.sympatico.msn.ca/Interviews...11_pathtowar_AD

[White Doors]

But that is not the original reason for being there!

OIL PIPELINE.

This is why Russia was in there -- or do you think those Russians were all concerned about women's rights?

FFS, I say get the hell out of the middle east entirely. Too bad for Isreal, it's her fault for moving to such a lousy neighbourhood, perhaps she should just move away -- she could have the northern part of Ontario... plenty of fresh water, farmland, ocean ports (won't be long till they are open all year!).

Why are the big bringers of freedom democracy and equality not in North Korea?

Clue Bat says "because they have no oil".

Afghanistan has no oil.

Yugoslavia had no oil.

feel silly yet?

[kuzadd]

afghanistan and the oil pipeline:

http://www.worldpress.org/specials/pp/pipeline_timeline.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1984459.stm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2001/oct...001.afghanistan

Afghanistan has huge strategic importance for the west as a corridor to the untapped fuel reserves in central Asia -route to riches

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m113...i_80965677/pg_1

A new silk road: Proposed petroleum pipeline in Afghanistan - Document

just a few articles.

Yugoslavia Kosovo and the pipeline

http://thedaily.washington.edu/2008/3/10/underreported/

The UnderReported: Kosovo’s independence a matter of Western oil interests, not democracy

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/27b/016.html

A Discreet Deal in the Pipeline: Nato Mocked Those Who Claimed There was a Plan for Caspian Oil

http://www.serbia-info.com/news/2001-02/16/22419.html

The Guardian: Trans-Balkan pipeline "the cause of the crisis in Yugoslavia"

February 16, 2001

drea, don't feel "silly" , you got it going on girl!!!

[MontyBurns]

I see the conspiracy theory gang has made it's presence. I guess the events of 911 had nothing do do with our involvement in Afghanistan. It was all about oil and heroin. Nothing else.

[Drea]

It's almost impossible to feel silly when discussing 911. (unless you are defending the Bush's) But thanks Kuzadd!

They will look a fact in the face and say "I don't see it". Blink Blink. Boggles the mind though doesn't it?

Brittany is going acting.. which is much more important anyway! Who cares about billions upon billions being spent on an unwinnable war -- Brittany is in the news!

I see the conspiracy theory gang has made it's presence. I guess the events of 911 had nothing do do with our involvement in Afghanistan. It was all about oil and heroin. Nothing else.

Oh come on... if Bin Laden were an actual target it would be very easy to "get" him. Simply invite him to the "ranch". He has been there before, he helped finance Georgie Porgie's first company. One of the Bin Ladens was meeting with Bush senior the very day of the attacks.

But Saudi Arabia is a "friend" right? A hand-holding, cheek-kissing best friend...

But you just stick your fingers in your ears and say "La la la -- can't heeeearrr you!"

Like a child who refuses to believe his parents are bad people...

Edited March 12, 2008 by Drea

[kuzadd]

I see the conspiracy theory gang has made it's presence. I guess the events of 911 had nothing do do with our involvement in Afghanistan. It was all about oil and heroin. Nothing else.

yup, that is it! geo-strategic reasons or interests , trump fairy tales, except for the gullible.

Isn't it funny, drea, when faced with facts, we see the bastion of last resort , name calling?

[White Doors]

yes. conspiracy theorists who think the US government perpetrated the 9/11 sttacks are smart and the rest of us are sheeple. that it?

What a convincing argument Drea!

lol

for the rest of you who are curious, read:

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

Don't mind me if I take the word of:

Some 200 technical experts—including about 85 career NIST experts and 125 leading experts from the private sector and academia—reviewed tens of thousands of documents, interviewed more than 1,000 people, reviewed 7,000 segments of video footage and 7,000 photographs, analyzed 236 pieces of steel from the wreckage, performed laboratory tests and sophisticated computer simulations of the sequence of events that occurred from the moment the aircraft struck the towers until they began to collapse.

over yours and Kuzadd's.

lol

Edited March 12, 2008 by White Doors

[Drea]

yes. conspiracy theorists who think the US government perpetrated the 9/11 sttacks are smart and the rest of us are sheeple. that it?

Hmmm... where did I say anything about intelligence? Sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to see facts has nothing to do with whether or not a person has a high level of intelligence -- but it does tell us that they are followers afraid to speak out. Afraid to find out that yes, the government is capable of this atrocity against its own citizens. It's fear, not lack of intelligence that drives the naysayers.

Good try though White!

for the rest of you who are curious, read:

http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/factsheets/faqs_8_2006.htm

at the very bottom of the website in tiny text is this:

"NIST is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce"

Gov't propaganda site... *ho hum*

Edited March 12, 2008 by Drea

[White Doors]

Hmmm... where did I say anything about intelligence? Sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to see facts has nothing to do with whether or not a person has a high level of intelligence -- but it does tell us that they are followers afraid to speak out. Afraid to find out that yes, the government is capable of this atrocity against its own citizens. It's fear, not lack of intelligence that drives the naysayers.

Good try though White!

at the very bottom of the website in tiny text is this:

"NIST is an agency of the U.S. Department of Commerce"

Gov't propaganda site... *ho hum*

lol! Ironic post of the year!!!

sticking your fingers in your ears and refusing to see facts? that's what you said right? oh, yes there it is in quotations!

awesome!!

thansk for the comic relief Drea!

LOL!!!

[margrace]

I see the conspiracy theory gang has made it's presence. I guess the events of 911 had nothing do do with our involvement in Afghanistan. It was all about oil and heroin. Nothing else.

Who do you think you are kidding, Right from the first it was oil and those pretty poppies that the Taliban wouldn't let them grow.

[Topaz]

I think GW had two things in mind when he went into Afghanistan and Iraq. To get the Taliban out of government and put in an american-friendly leader and the same in Iraq and to put a large a powerful US miltary center in Iraq to control the Middle-East their way and for the oil under the Capsian Sea Basin that is very rich in oil and use the US military to help guard the US oil companies there. The problem about his plan was he didn't have enough troops for Iraq and he pulled out of Afghanistan too soon and now their debt is 9 Trillion and the two wars are costing 1 Bil daily and GW still wants to go into Iran before leaving office.

[Wild Bill]

I think GW had two things in mind when he went into Afghanistan and Iraq. To get the Taliban out of government and put in an american-friendly leader and the same in Iraq and to put a large a powerful US miltary center in Iraq to control the Middle-East their way and for the oil under the Capsian Sea Basin that is very rich in oil and use the US military to help guard the US oil companies there. The problem about his plan was he didn't have enough troops for Iraq and he pulled out of Afghanistan too soon and now their debt is 9 Trillion and the two wars are costing 1 Bil daily and GW still wants to go into Iran before leaving office.

I would agree with you somewhat on these issues. GW's mistake in Iraq is that he thought it would be a pushover, which it was, but never had a clue about what to do after Saddam's regime fell! I mean, disbanding an Iraqi army of hundreds of thousands of soldiers with no jobs for them available! What were they supposed to do? Sit quietly in their homes with their families and slowly starve to death? Many of them became terrorists just for food!

I think GW and his boys must have thought that the Iraqi people were all hungry to become Mr. and Mrs. Abou Ben Cleaver and clone the American Dream, complete with all the resources at hand to achieve this goal. Kinda dumb.

Afghanistan however was different and totally necessary. The Taliban regime had actively fostered terrorist groups like Bin laden's. The fact that they had a horribly offensive culture towards women and education was never really important to GW. The important thing was that for the first time a fundamentalist Muslim group had made a decisive strike against America on her own soil! They had crossed the line.

The American people could never allow their government to wuss out on something like this! So GW sent a strong message, good and hard. He invaded the source of the 9/11 terrorists and threw out the entire Taliban regime! Any other terrorist group in the future would have to consider such a ferocious retaliation as part of the cost of ever doing such a thing as the Towers again!

This message absolutely had to have been sent. Up till then there had been smaller incidents, blowing holes in the sides of American warships, bombs in embassies and military installations and the like. The strongest retaliation had been Clinton sending a cruise missile to blow up what turned out to be an aspirin factory in the Sudan. To these terrorists America had looked like an easy target!

Now they know better! Security has been tightened, making it harder for them to operate. GW tied financial and political dealings to a country's stand on terrorism, making it more costly if they wanted to support such groups. If someone hijacked a plane, never again would the pilots and passengers assume that if the hijackers demands were negotiated and met they would all get off the plane safely. They now know that they might as well fight for their lives as they are certainly likely to lose them anyway.

So Bush did some things right. He just was a little dumb on following through. At least he did something. If Bin laden had brought down the CN Tower we would still be waiting to hear from a commission appointed to study if it was all a federal or a provincial matter...

[Rovik]

In question period today, it ws revealed that the Harper government is already 1 BILLION $$ over budget on the Afghanistan war. I, myself think that this war is going to cost Canadians alot more before we are done. How high are you willing for your taxes to go up and up to pay for this war?? The Americans in Iraq are now realizing that the longer they stay in Iraq they longer the Iraqis are not holding their own and I heard someone say the US should leave Iraq very soon and let the Iraqis stand on their own and go to Afghanistan.

Hey Topaz, here's a link with more details of what you referred to:

Tories try to dampen Afghan overspending report

As per usual, whenever Conservative posters see something here they don't like or paints the Conservative party in a bad light, they completely change the topic...in this thread , they talk about 9/11, which has nothing to do with the cost of the war in Afghanistan. The war which is way over budget and after 5 years and billions of dollars in which there has been virtually little change in Afghanistan (except make the warlords, opium-growers and corrupt govt. happy) has siphoned monies that could have been used to fix a crumbling infrastructure network here in Canada, could have been used to boost healthcare systems (and who knows how many lives could have been saved because of improved healthcare), and could have been used to help beleaguered students coming out of University with staggering debts.

Billions and billions have been spent and there's no guarantee that the situation in Afghanistan will ever get better. It's a gigantic waste I have to be fair, it's not just the Conservatives that are the blame, but also the Liberals.

Edited March 13, 2008 by Rovik

[AngusThermopyle]

It's a gigantic waste I have to be fair, it's not just the Conservatives that are the blame, but also the Liberals.

Thank you, nice to see a person who can see both sides of the coin.

As for how much we should spend, well, at least as much as sponsorship scandals, golf balls, gun registries and mysteriously missing billions.