Muslim Immigration and Integration

[Argus]

So can we just agree that despite the vast differences in culture, education and expectations amongst muslims with each around the world....you don't really care and would prefer to paint them all with the same brush?

You know, if you go to Home Depot they have about fifty four different shades of every colour of paint, but when you boil it all down it's still the same colour.

So long as the Muslim world chooses the same colour scheme I'll feel comfortable in using one brush for my paint.

But by all means do send me a list of gay pride parades in the Muslim world. I mean, there are such "vast differences" among Muslims that surely there must be a lot of places among scores of Muslim nations where gays - and women and Jews - are treated well. Right?

[Argus]

Which is entirely irrelevant to the question or to Argus statement that there are no secular muslims.

....probably not factual either. I assume Istanbul both would be relatively safe....or at least as safe as in Regina

My point is that according to the teachings of ALL Muslim scholars and religious figures there cannot be a secular Muslim. If you were to check with any of those authorities they would tell you that neither of the people you mention are real Muslims at all.

And Istanbul has had it's share of bombings lately and Turkey is moving closer to an Islamist government every year. I highly doubt either would be safe there.

[M.Dancer]

You know, if you go to Home Depot they have about fifty four different shades of every colour of paint, but when you boil it all down it's still the same colour.

So long as the Muslim world chooses the same colour scheme I'll feel comfortable in using one brush for my paint.

But by all means do send me a list of gay pride parades in the Muslim world. I mean, there are such "vast differences" among Muslims that surely there must be a lot of places among scores of Muslim nations where gays - and women and Jews - are treated well. Right?

Bosnia comes to mind...there's a large Jewish community still in Turkey. Women's rights differe drastically from nation to nation.....relativley modern in Pakistan, Egypt, Syria and Algeria, relatively backwards in Yemen....

Gay rights for the most part are stuck where they were in 1920 Mississipi

[M.Dancer]

My point is that according to the teachings of ALL Muslim scholars and religious figures there cannot be a secular Muslim. If you were to check with any of those authorities they would tell you that neither of the people you mention are real Muslims at all.

By that logic there are no secular jews or christians......you seem to have taken a page from leafless's book of tortured semantics

[mikedavid00]

So what do you call S. Rushdi or Irshad Manji?

They are poeple who fille their pockets with my tax dollars and pre-occupy their time with issues that are of other countries and should have nothing to do with the daily function of Canada.

They also don't work a 9-5. We pay for them.

And the ethnic newspapers, and the mosques, and the sikh/hindu temples, and their ethnic schooling.

Man.. I feel sorry for the tax payers of BC who have to subsidize Sikh's learning how to sword fight and punjabi classes in their stoneage private schools which non sikh's are not welcome (racist).

The political system is corrupt and the people have lost power of how their money is spent. I feel that we need to re-work the polical system and basically stop the gov't from giving out our money unless it involves basic social services (EI, OldAge homes) infrastructure expense, and centralized milatry. EVERYTHING ELSE CAN GO: Agractulture Canada, HRDC... http://www.canada.gc.ca/depts/major/depind-eng.html for a listing of the rest of the programs that can go.

All schools should be private, if you can't afford to go, then you get a voucher.

The people shall pass laws regulating if they would like to have race based schools - NOT 12 people sitting on a trustee board.

Our political system is severely outdated and corrupt. The land belongs to Canadians, *CANADIANS* should have the only say on who we want coming onto our borders.

And oh yeah, the CBC can go to hell and collapse. They get no more funding to 'shape the minds of Canadians' which is evedent on some of the posters on this very forum.

[jefferiah]

not most, only ones with certain 'end times' beliefs.

Is that most of them now? good god what a mess we are in.!

I didn't specifically link you with hateful, I gave you three types of common postings I see here as example, "hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views"

I was using your words, Kuzadd. You said most.

And yes I would say you are specifically linking me here:

"Hence we see Argus, Jefferiah, and other fundamentalist type "christians" espousing hateful views, half-truths and stereotypes to promote their views."--Kuzadd

Unless of course you mean some other Jefferiah. With that last statement I am making a guess at your next contortion feat.

Edited March 14, 2008 by jefferiah

[Melanie_]

They are poeple who fille their pockets with my tax dollars and pre-occupy their time with issues that are of other countries and should have nothing to do with the daily function of Canada.

They have nothing to do with your tax dollars. Neither one of them lives in Canada; they both are associated with American universities. Try reading up on them a bit...

Irshad Manji

Salman Rushdie

[jefferiah]

actually it is not inconsistent, reread the definitions.

.A deity or god is a postulated preternatural or supernatural being, who is usually, but not always, of significant power, worshipped, thought holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, or respected by human beings.

Also, re-reading this definition, I say it is inconsistent with what you were saying. In Islam Jesus is considered human, not supernatural or preternatural.

[eyeball]

Hell no!

And didn't the Chinese gov't just arrest the members of that particular group your talking about for some terrorist plot for the Olympics?

No, those were Uyghurs. They're Islamic but are more closely related to Europeans than the Hui.

Normally, I'd expect someone like yourself to be very supportive of feedom fighters who resist communist supression. I guess since China decided to embrace capitalism however they now get a free pass. I see our new friends have been killing Tibetans today for having the temerity to demonstrate against dictatorship.

[Argus]

By that logic there are no secular jews or christians......you seem to have taken a page from leafless's book of tortured semantics

There are plenty of secular Jews and Christians. But Islam is more all-encompassing, a global set of instructions on everything from how to go to the bathroom and what you have to do if a dog touches you, to how governments are to be run, how law should be structured, and how other religions are to be treated. You cannot ignore such a massive guide of instructions in how to live your life and still call yourself a Muslim. And, in fact, if you weren't a solid believer, you wouldn't go through that kind of effort anyway.

Modern Christianity (which has undergone numerous changes over the last few centuries) requires far less of its adherents. And most of the Churches seem relatively content if people simply abide (morally speaking) by the general spirit of the Bible, even if they don't follow all the instructions contained within. You don't have to be a deeply religious person to accept Christianity as a general guide to morality.

[Argus]

Bosnia comes to mind...there's a large Jewish community still in Turkey. Women's rights differe drastically from nation to nation.....relativley modern in Pakistan, Egypt, Syria and Algeria, relatively backwards in Yemen....

Gay rights for the most part are stuck where they were in 1920 Mississipi

Relatively modern? Relatively as compared to Saudi Arabia, perhaps, but not compared to us - or, even, for that matter, 1920s Mississippi.

[Argus]

No, those were Uyghurs. They're Islamic but are more closely related to Europeans than the Hui.

Normally, I'd expect someone like yourself to be very supportive of feedom fighters who resist communist supression. I guess since China decided to embrace capitalism however they now get a free pass. I see our new friends have been killing Tibetans today for having the temerity to demonstrate against dictatorship.

It's difficult to get to the facts in that part of the world, as outsiders are not allowed. However, from what I have read I disbelieve anything the Chinese government says. They have been persecuting the Uyghurs for many years. The Uyghurs can only dream of being treated as well by the Chinese as the Palestinians are by the IDF. The Chinese also have a very elastic concept of terms like "terrorism" and "treason".

Edited March 14, 2008 by Argus

[jefferiah]

They have nothing to do with your tax dollars. Neither one of them lives in Canada; they both are associated with American universities. Try reading up on them a bit...

Irshad Manji

Salman Rushdie

Rushdie is a self proclaimed atheist.

[eyeball]

The Chinese also have a very elastic concept of terms like "terrorism" and "treason".

So does our side, which seems to indicate that most of the differences between people in the world are only skin deep. Ugly apparently goes right to the bone everywhere you go too.

[jazzer]

And I don't care if you were born here and raised here. If you believe women have to wear a chador you are not a Canadian. You might have a passport, but I wll never call you a Canadian and never think of you as a Canadian. If you are a woman I will think you're pathetic and weak, and if you are a man, I will think you're ignorant and backward.

And the same would go for wearing a turban, or any of the other wierdass ethnic costumes which belong in the closet along with Indian feather headresses and kilts.

What about the 200 or so muslims in our Canadian army? Are they not fighting for you Argus?

Edited March 14, 2008 by jazzer

[Melanie_]

And the same would go for wearing a turban, or any of the other wierdass ethnic costumes which belong in the closet along with Indian feather headresses and kilts.

Argus, I had no idea you were a fashion maven!

But seriously, what is the big deal about people wearing what makes them comfortable? Turbans, saris, kilts, buckskins, hajibs... so what? No dress code for Canada, please! (And more men in kilts can only be a good thing.)

[JB Globe]

Islam, on the other hand, is something that ALL Muslims adhere to, to some degree; Islamic extremism is an extreme form of the Islamic faith, and the Islamic faith is something that ALL Muslims adhere to.

Of course, Islamic extremism is something a tiny minority of Muslims adhere to. And one of the main motivating factors that cause people to go down that path is a lack of connection to society at large, motivated primarily by institutional and societal discrimination, which exacerbates the normal difficulties of integration that all immigrants face.

Islam and Islamic extremism aren't the same thing, the same way the Italian community and the mob aren't the same thing.

In the same way, the beginnings of the Italian mafia were borne out of frustration and discrimination - every great mob movie and book profiles this in some way - that these men felt they were denied access to the American Dream because of their ethnic and economic background.

Just as the mob gave these alienated men a sense of security, pride and belonging, extremist circles within the Islamic community do the same. And although you make the point that illegal activities were something most Italians didn't engage in, the fact is that the mob considered itself the guardian of Italian values, and championed them, even if they did engage in acts which were counterproductive to the community they claimed to protect.

To reiterate my point - I understand there are functional differences between the mob and Islamic extremism, but they're similar in that they're both partly motivated by reactions to discrimination both communities faced during their early years in North America, and are representative of reactionary problems most communities face, but eventually get under control while society at large opens up to them.

[JB Globe]

For those who don't live in Toronto or have never been here, the above is an *excellent* depection of how people treat each other socially here and the reason why I call Toronto the most racist city in the world.

Mike, for those of us who don't have something constantly shoved up our anus, mutually joking about our respective ethnic backgrounds WITH OUR FRIENDS is funny and serves as a good way to make fun of cultural quirks that everyone has, and the supposedly insurmountable differences between our cultures.

Of course, there's a difference between that and making jokes which have the purpose of humiliating or portraying someone as inferior because of their background.

It's like racist jokes vs the kind of jokes that Russell Peters tells - of course, I suspect you think he's racist, right?

I don't know what planet you live on, but judging from all of your stories you pull out of nowhere it can't be the Toronto I've lived in my whole life. Newmarket maybe?

[JB Globe]

You say that most muslims have integrated fine into Canada.

Question:

Will most mulsims let you marry their daughter?

Answer:

No.

Until you can answer yes, they are not integrated.

Hey Mike,

Question: Can a Muslim man marry your daughter?

Until you answer yes, you're not integrated.

The hypocrisy knows no bounds here . . .

You dislike Italian-Canadianss in general, but you're integrated? Sure, sure . . .

[MontyBurns]

And oh yeah, the CBC can go to hell and collapse. They get no more funding to 'shape the minds of Canadians' which is evedent on some of the posters on this very forum.

Now you're talkin!

[JB Globe]

How about the fact that they are forcefully forcing women to put cloths over their head? . . .

That's not a personal experience Mike, try again.

I mean, you're not one of those typical xenophobes who hates Muslims yet has never had an actual conversation with one about anything substantial, are you?

[Oleg Bach]

Mike, for those of us who don't have something constantly shoved up our anus, mutually joking about our respective ethnic backgrounds WITH OUR FRIENDS is funny and serves as a good way to make fun of cultural quirks that everyone has, and the supposedly insurmountable differences between our cultures.

Of course, there's a difference between that and making jokes which have the purpose of humiliating or portraying someone as inferior because of their background.

It's like racist jokes vs the kind of jokes that Russell Peters tells - of course, I suspect you think he's racist, right?

I don't know what planet you live on, but judging from all of your stories you pull out of nowhere it can't be the Toronto I've lived in my whole life. Newmarket maybe?

Old down town Newmarket - I remember it well and the hanging Judge Pearce who saddled hundreds of young males with crimminal records because there were creepy crowns that would approach a young man and say "plead guilty they will go easier on you" - not that this is on topic..getting back to racism - we have a system in Toronto where we the old white guys are taught and conditioned to fear poor and tough looking black guys...it's almost a system enduction of fear..last night on Queen Street I took my electric guitar and wailed out at the local jam session - the drummer that I play with is black - a lot of players and vocalist that show up are black - the creeped out drug dealers are all white...point being - we play and we love each other..artists are colour blind - also - I am as white as white - but I am black - inside - go figure.

[JB Globe]

The chances are poor that a south asian girl from Brampton will let you marry her.

Really? Than why do my girlfriend's family both here in Canada and in India can't seem to stop bugging us to get married?

Maybe it's because you don't actually have any South Asian friends whom you can talk to and learn about the community from. Maybe it's because you're basing all of your opinions on stereotypes you've cooked up in your own head.

Mike, face it - you don't know what you're talking about. Give it up, you're just making yourself look ever more ignorant with each post. All of your "facts" are observations you're making using your prejudicial views and not any actual lived or learned knowledge.

That's why you say things like this:

And no, most businesses in Brampton are certainly not south asian owned. Much of it is old industry. They come to 'live' here and use services, not to pay taxes and create employment.

No stats, no facts, nothing - just your unsubstantiated opinion that "those people are sucking Canada dry"

Wow, great work Rhodes Scholar, let me know when you give your next Massey Lecture.

[MontyBurns]

..last night on Queen Street I took my electric guitar and wailed out at the local jam session - the drummer that I play with is black - a lot of players and vocalist that show up are black ...

I'd be careful there if I were you.

[AngusThermopyle]

In the same way, the beginnings of the Italian mafia were borne out of frustration and discrimination - every great mob movie and book profiles this in some way - that these men felt they were denied access to the American Dream because of their ethnic and economic background.

Actually thats wrong. The roots of the Mafia lie in Sicily, they had nothing to do with America until later in their existence.