Muslim Immigration and Integration

[eyeball]

I think this is a very important story that anyone concerned about immigration issues should read. I'd like to hope this generates some discussion and support that percolates up to the powers that be. I don't know how much influence this forum actually has on these but if the owner's ability to collect and present questions to public figures is anything to go by I suspect someone must be keeping a tab or two on what we think around here. I don't know if the comparison is apt but I seem to recall reading that a letter to an editor is representative of ten thousand like-minded opinions.

Let's use China's Hui to build our Muslim model in Canada - By SHEEMA KHAN

The 16th century saw the emergence of a unique institution: the nusi - mosques for women, run by women. These continue to thrive today, as do the ahong - Muslim female clerics (or imams) who provide spiritual and educational guidance to men and women. The ahong are trained in both Islamic knowledge and Chinese culture.

Story

Sheema Khan talks about using the example of the Hui as a model of integration for Muslims immigrating to Canada but I'd like to encourage as many practicing Hui as we can to actually immigrate here as well. I'd like to see government funding made available to facilitate this. I also see a lot of potential here for Canada to build an organization comprised of Muslim immigrants devoted to advancing women's rights throughout the Muslim world. The most important thing Canada can provide is a safe base where these can flourish and from which Muslim women and men can develop strategies that help advance this here and elsewhere.

[Borg]

What?

And continue to import even more trouble?

And you want my tax dollars to help this happen?

You got to be smoking something illegal.

No apology from me - this idea sucks the big one.

Borg

Edited March 8, 2008 by Borg

[Peter F]

I think its a great idea, eyeball.

[eyeball]

Thanks Peter.

Actually Borg the real point of this is to use your tax dollars to help develop solutions that we can export. Try to think BIG here for a moment, the Hui may actually represent a solution for integrating Islam and quite possibly other religons having a hard time fitting in, with the entire world.

Developing a relationship with the Hui could also lead to new avenues of thought and discussion opening up between the oriental and occidental worlds. It seems to me that a religous culture that has not only survived but is thriving in an atheist communist system might have a lot to teach the world about how to get along. Learning how to get along is definitely something worth investing in especially in this day and age. In terms of importance I think this is right up there with finding alternative energy sources or a cure for AIDS. We should be putting billions into it, annually.

Edited March 8, 2008 by eyeball

[Wild Bill]

Thanks Peter.

Actually Borg the real point of this is to use your tax dollars to help develop solutions that we can export. Try to think BIG here for a moment, the Hui may actually represent a solution for integrating Islam and quite possibly other religons having a hard time fitting in, with the entire world.

Developing a relationship with the Hui could also lead to new avenues of thought and discussion opening up between the oriental and occidental worlds. It seems to me that a religous culture that has not only survived but is thriving in an atheist communist system might have a lot to teach the world about how to get along. Learning how to get along is definitely something worth investing in especially in this day and age. In terms of importance I think this is right up there with finding alternative energy sources or a cure for AIDS. We should be putting billions into it, annually.

Have you considered the possible magnitude of the friction between these women and Muslims from some of the more fundamentalist cultures? The costs of policing and protection? To some "fundies" the very idea of a female Imam would be like a red flag in front of a bull.

[scribblet]

We certainly need to encourage integration and respect for our culture and laws, and maybe a similar stand to that of Denmark ?

http://gatesofvienna.blogspot.com/2008/03/...tml#readfurther

Friday, March 07, 2008

Why Should They Be Here?

by Dymphna

As we have reported previously, under the influence of the second Motoon crisis, Denmark has become remarkably united in its opposition to Islamic threats and extortion.

Danish Social Democrats are now going on the offensive. They propose to pay Muslims — even those with Danish citizenship — to leave the country if they don’t like Denmark or the Danes.

At Henrik’s suggestion, the text below was translated by TB from a transcript at Snaphanen of a Danish Public Radio broadcast. The speaker is Helle Thorning-Schmidt, the leader of the Danish Social Democrats:

All these people living in Denmark with a foreign background, they should have a choice. They should choose whether they wish to be part of the Danish community, with all the norms and rules that we have in Danish society, or whether in fact they would prefer to be another place.

And this is a message to all of those who support Hizb ut-Tahrir: If they have so much against our way of life and all the freedom we have in Denmark, then it might be a good idea to be in another place; but this is also an offer to those who never really fit in right, who maybe came here in the ’70s, and are actually not that happy about Denmark and would rather go home.

Why not raise the repatriation check amount, and give them an offer so that one in reality should choose whether one wants to be in Denmark and be part of Danish society, or whether one in reality should be another place. cont...

[buffycat]

Eyeball, many thanks for posting this article. It is a rare example of rational thought, positive in its tone and refreshing in its dialogue. Instead of the usual 'us vs them' mentality printed overwhelmingly in right wing rags of the west, this article adopts an inclusive and egalitaran approach to the idea of blending cultures and communties.

Wonderful ideas, whose time has long come!

Thanks again - I'll be certainly forwarding this one off to others!

[eyeball]

We certainly need to encourage integration and respect for our culture and laws, and maybe a similar stand to that of Denmark ?

We need to encourage integration better than the Danes have. I'd say countries that feel the need to take a stand have done so because they failed to explore alternatives to simply becoming outraged.

[MontyBurns]

We need to encourage integration better than the Danes have. I'd say countries that feel the need to take a stand have done so because they failed to explore alternatives to simply becoming outraged.

Maybe you should go to a muslim country and see how much they tolerate you.

[eyeball]

Maybe you should go to a muslim country and see how much they tolerate you.

Perhaps you should move to Denmark. You'd likely fit right in. Canada would probably benefit too.

[MontyBurns]

Perhaps you should move to Denmark. You'd likely fit right in. Canada would probably benefit too.

I might fit in in Denmark but you sure as hell wont be tolerated in a Muslim country. Who's side are you on anyway?

[eyeball]

I might fit in in Denmark but you sure as hell wont be tolerated in a Muslim country. Who's side are you on anyway?

I'm on Earth's side.

It sure sounds like I'd be tolerated in those areas of western China that are Muslim. I bet they might even cut you some slack.

[MontyBurns]

Eyeball, Canada isn't a Muslim country. Why do you want to promote Muslim integration and immigration? It's like a Muslim saying that he wants more Christianity. Here we are predominantly white European descent. What is wrong with our own traditions/religion/values? Arent you proud of your own heritage?

[kengs333]

We need to encourage integration better than the Danes have. I'd say countries that feel the need to take a stand have done so because they failed to explore alternatives to simply becoming outraged.

There's two sides to every issue, and the thing that people like you fail to realize is the inherent desire within Islam spread, overwhelm, dominate and control cultures and societies that they come into contact with. You are hopelessly naive if you think that Muslims will simply integrate and become happy, productive liberalized citizens. Canada was founded on principles that evolved over centuries in Europe; these principles give us the rights, freedoms, and liberties that no other civilization has managed to attain; allowing people who hold a belief system that is so fundamentally opposed these principles and then naively expecting them to fully shed their indoctrinated beliefs for more enlightened ways is asking for trouble. Many may, to some degree or another, but there will always be a core who don't, and this group will be the genesis for future issues that could well have been avoided.

Edited March 9, 2008 by kengs333

[eyeball]

Eyeball, Canada isn't a Muslim country. Why do you want to promote Muslim integration and immigration? It's like a Muslim saying that he wants more Christianity. Here we are predominantly white European descent. What is wrong with our own traditions/religion/values? Arent you proud of your own heritage?

Canada is a multi-cultural country that includes Muslims. What I said is, Canada should promote the immigration of a specific group of Muslim people who seem to be particularily talented at integrating with others. They appear to be both very tolerant and very tolerable people. I don't mean to say these are the only Muslims we should accept as immigrants but I think we should certainly encourage enough that they can influence the evolution of a Muslim-Canadian culture that better reflects the tradition of tolerance that many Canadians are justly proud of.

I'm an indigenous Earthling, mostly pink in colour with areas of light brown, and little bits of blue, white, red and so on. I'm also an atheist. My kids have no interest in religion so I'm proud of their heritage of critical thinking skills. I hope it hasn't missed your notice that I'm an atheist who's saying he wants more religious immigrants. How does that compare to a Muslim saying they want more Christians or vice versa? Canada has traditionally been a nation of immigrants from all around the world. So what if its predominately been European? I place a higher value on greater diversity myself.

There is another valuable trait the Hui share with the majority of Canadians, they clearly place a high premium on equality between men and women. This is something that many think is missing in other cultures and religions and sexual equality is something that would facilitate better integration, for all immigrants, even those from Christian countries. If we can better establish this value here at home and encourage its export to other parts of the world we can hopefully influence immigrants before they even arrive.

Fighting harder for our values overseas will make fighting for them here a little less difficult. Judging by the attitudes I see daily in this forum however we still need to be vigilant. Very vigilant.

[eyeball]

There's two sides to every issue, and the thing that people like you fail to realize is the inherent desire within Islam spread, overwhelm, dominate and control cultures and societies that they come into contact with.

Just like Christians. Go figure.

[MontyBurns]

Eyeball I hope your Islamic friends are as nice to you as you are to them. I bet they will absolutely love your atheistic belief system.

[eyeball]

They may not love atheism but I bet my friends will become a lot more tolerant of it than your's.

[MontyBurns]

They may not love atheism but I bet my friends will become a lot more tolerant of it than your's.

I hope so for your sake.

[eyeball]

Your friends are that nasty eh?

[kengs333]

Just like Christians. Go figure.

Sorry, but there are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, and if you're incapable of understanding that then I'd say you're the one here who's ignorant.

[kengs333]

They may not love atheism but I bet my friends will become a lot more tolerant of it than your's.

Ohhhh... "tolerance"... I love how people like you bandy that word about and delude yourselves with the belief that you actually have a greater capacity for it than people who don't subscribe to your narrow ideological worldview... yet the second you actually have to deal with people who truly express their opinions, you start hurling secular fire and brimstone...

[Regulus de Leo]

One of the problems with an egalitarian society is that we are taught that fairness involves equal treatment. And it is, but one only treats equal things equally. So we want to believe and we are told it is unfair to believe that things are not equal when they are manifestly unequal. We blind ourselves. We dont' want to look to closely. We don't want to know. The curious thing about multiculturalists is that for all their 'pro culture' stances they really are not all that curious or informed about other cultures.

Christianity and Islam are not the same religion. They are different sets of beliefs. We shouldn't assume that Islam must be as equally non-violent as Christianity or equally fair to women.

So the jury is out on whether Islam is a religion of peace and these days because we have become so secularized we tend to have a very uninformed view of Christianity (I keep being told Hitler was a Christian. He was not.).

[eyeball]

Sorry, but there are fundamental differences between Christianity and Islam, and if you're incapable of understanding that then I'd say you're the one here who's ignorant.

I understand that differences exist, its just that I refuse to overlook the fundamental similarities.

Edited March 9, 2008 by eyeball

[eyeball]

we have become so secularized we tend to have a very uninformed view of Christianity

Christianity is just a thing like Islamism, its what people do with these things that counts.

Ten bucks says if Jesus were here today he would describe himself as an Earthling too. What else could I possibly ever need to know about him that matters?